No Hard Drive in Xbox 2 Confirmed

[cthellis42]

I wasn't talking about how much space they take up for the intial install obviously. On a console all these files will reside on the game DVD. Major expansions ship on seprate CD's on PC or in the case of consoles DVD's ( and carry a decent/cheaper price tag possibly). while I could see them including the full version of the game along withthe addon and sell it like X RPG gold edition or somehting along those lines (unlike PC addons).

Problem is that would then require disk-swapping, for expansions and add-ons that got too large. And probably be inconvenient for any major modifications to the original zones/models/whatever. Not sure how well it could be handled (probably reasonably enough with talented developers), but then there's the question of who would WANT to swap disks as they move to other areas... It would certainly be a bit more sillified than other MMO's.

The majority of created information is NOT sitting database side, else the bandwidth requirements would be beastly.

That's not correct at all. User created information sits database side. what other created information do you think there is once a MMORPG game is installed?

[/quote]
User created references are hardly space-consuming. It's not like they're streaming you graphics and audio directly. All changes and updates still get patched to your computer first; proper caching can help a lot; your computer's CPU and GPU performance matter much more than your connection, and packet loss affects you much more than your bandwidth... The more complex a game is the more references it DOES have to send you, certainly, but they have to keep that as low as possible, else it becomes a massive expense, clogs their servers, and punishes larger grouping. We're talking about what really takes up storage space in a MMORPG, and that is most definitely the user's machine.

Obviously game assets don't sit database side.

Right, but "game assets" are what take up space. References and positional data and combat updates come fast and furious, but are tiny and inconsequential in comparison. (A friend was one day playing around in SWG and had his bandwidth meter on for curiosity's sake, and after an hour's playtime had received around 1MB in total transfers. Granted he wasn't hanging around and hunting in a large party at the time--a little soloing, a bit of crafting, a trip to the city or two--but the overall transferring can be surprisingly low.) And none of it really replaces what needs to be stored on one's hard drive (though likely much is duplicated).

Of course I'm talking about "extra content" after launch. PC MMORPG's ship expansions on seperate disks because they are either too big for most to download, and/or they want to make more money of it.

This is different from having a game designed in such a way that extra quests or story events can completely be controlled without any additional graphics or assets. which is somehting I htink a console MMORPG would need/use. This is exactly why I said MMORPG's don't typically require extra hard drive space once released. They only reason they'd need a whole lot of additional space is for game assets, and those are typicaly sold sperately.

...but those same assets are crucial to a MMORPG's growth and popularity, and modify/replace old files while adding many new ones. How can you GET them together easily or well without the drive to mix them on? I suppose if you can still fit ALL the sum total of the files on the media the expansion disks would suit, but MMO's are getting ever bigger and we still don't know if next gen's consoles are going to be moving beyond DVD yet, so... <shrugs> One can obviously make things work, but it's a question of how much effort a developer is willing to put in, and how many concessions need to be made, and just what difference each option makes. (For a general idea at that, just look at DVD-based EQ:OA vs what FFXI does with room to burn.)

MMORPG's are certainly a ton of development effort already, but considering they still first aim at the PC market, developers may not be too thrilled with trying to work it off ROM or a ROM/flash combination if hard drives are still available and preferential. We'll see many experiments and trials, to be sure, but for the biggest MMO projects? I don't see them changing their habits just yet.

 

[Qroach]

Problem is that would then require disk-swapping, for expansions and add-ons that got too large.

Whoa, hold your horses. I didn't say anything about disk swapping. I said they sell an addon disk WITH the original game on the same disk for consoles. In other words since you don't install teh game and downloading large additions isnt an option. On consoles games like this have been called version 2.0 or Gold edition, or somehting along those lines. This is what I mentioned is unlike the PC market in that it's not nearly as easy to addon to a console game when the game doesn't install.

Not sure how well it could be handled

As I said earlier, the addon would be sold along with the full game. That's the only way you can handle it without downloading or install in the game..

User created references are hardly space-consuming.

Exactly the point I was making earlier regarding not needing a lot of additional hard drive space for MMORPG's. on the PC beyond the intial install, a lot of extra harddrive space isn't required. The exception on PC is addons, but in the console world addons don't really exsist.

We're talking about what really takes up storage space in a MMORPG, and that is most definitely the user's machine.

No, we're talking about what really takes up hardrive space in a console MMORPG game by making references to PC MMORPG games. Go back and read through the thread to see what I mean. If xbox 2 comes with less hardrive space, will that make a difference to MMORPG's? no, as you don't install the game like a PC, you don't require a lot of additional space.

Right, but "game assets" are what take up space.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Have a look back through the thread to see the direction it was going. On a PC game assets take up hardrive space because you install to the harddrive. On a console you don't install the game, as it runs from DVD. I said earlier that MS could get away with less hardrive space then they are currently providing, and someone asked "what about MMORPG's?" I replied that MMORPG's don't typically require a lot of additional hard drive space, as the majority of created information sits database side. Which is true.

The key word there is "additional har drive space". I'm looking at this like it were a console. On the PC you install the game, run it, and play through it without needing to a whole lot more space than the intial install. On a console, you'd be running the game off the disk, so you wouldn't need a lot of additional space. Addons on the PC are a different story, as they'd have to be handled differently on a console (like my suggestion for including the full game alone with the added material).

I suppose if you can still fit ALL the sum total of the files on the media the expansion disks would suit, but MMO's are getting ever bigger and we still don't know if next gen's consoles are going to be moving beyond DVD yet, so... <shrugs> One can obviously make things work, but it's a question of how much effort a developer is willing to put in, and how many concessions need to be made...

Ok, you seem to understand that on a console things would have to be different for MMORPG's. This is facinating subject, but I think things have slid away from the real question. That being... Would MS be able to get away with less hardrive space in Xbox 2? I still answer "yes" they would. As a console MMORPG wouldn't require any additional space, becuase any information created after the game had been played would reside database side.

 

[Ty]

References and positional data and combat updates come fast and furious, but are tiny and inconsequential in comparison.

SWG is probably around 1.5k-2k a sec avg. If I remember my figures correctly.

No, we're talking about what really takes up hardrive space in a console MMORPG game by making references to PC MMORPG games. Go back and read through the thread to see what I mean. If xbox 2 comes with less hardrive space, will that make a difference to MMORPG's? no, as you don't install the game like a PC, you don't require a lot of additional space.

I'm sure it will be fine. One reason why you install it to Hard Drive on PCs is because you can. There is no ultra critical need for everything to be in ram or on a HD (hell even some times my GC rom reader doesn't keep up and there are missing textures in Dark Alliance).

as the majority of created information sits database side. Which is true.

I think some of the confusion rests with this statement. Just what do you mean by this? What exactly is "created information"?

FYI, SWG character DB is about 3 megs per character. Whew that's huge.

Addons on the PC are a different story, as they'd have to be handled differently on a console (like my suggestion for including the full game alone with the added material).

Or you get smart (and ahead of schedule) and include expansion material on the first disk which remains "hidden". That's pretty rare in this industry though. Oh, and including the original game along with expansion material on the same media later on is not necessarily that easy. What if you originally took up 97% of the space on your media delivery method which left you little to no room for tangible assets?

 

[Qroach]

I think some of the confusion rests with this statement. Just what do you mean by this? What exactly is "created information

Ok, by "created information" I mean any data that is created by the user that requires some sort of storage, or anything like a swap file/cache the game creates itself.

 

[PARANOiA]

M$ did have one advantage more - much more mature development environment, and would one guess they are banking on this again.....

But Faf! new rumoured specs of XB2 suggest that the games development is going to be anything but easy... (compared to XB1)?

You mean, almost as hard as the PS2? The current market leader?

I think development difficulty is something that developers seem to use as an excuse. If they want to develop for a system they'll do it - eg PS2. If they don't, they won't - eg Saturn.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

M$ did have one advantage more - much more mature development environment, and would one guess they are banking on this again.....

But Faf! new rumoured specs of XB2 suggest that the games development is going to be anything but easy... (compared to XB1)?

You mean, almost as hard as the PS2? The current market leader?

I think development difficulty is something that developers seem to use as an excuse. If they want to develop for a system they'll do it - eg PS2. If they don't, they won't - eg Saturn.

But there is a difference in learning how to code, and learning the all of the hardware to code.
Sure, a skilled programmer can work on pretty much any platform and could get good results provided with the resources necessairy to do so. Look at Saturn, they COULD do brilliant things with it (Shenmue for example, beautiful without any expansion cart), but they just hadn't got enough time/resources to be able to make such a game.
Don't forget things like time pressure/deadlines don't help the development progress very much.
If PlayStation 3 has a more radical architecture, I think quality of Xbox 2 and N5 ports might drop, if PlayStation 3 were to be a developers leading platform. It would just be so hard to convert from one console to the other...

 

[cthellis42]

FYI, SWG character DB is about 3 megs per character. Whew that's huge.

Exactly. ^_^ And even of that, how much actually gets streamed to you at what time? Your visual reference when loading, certainly, and your local information (datapad, some/most inventory), but your bank inventory sits around until your access it, your buildings don't show until you get close enough to them, the items inside your buildings until you actually enter... You don't access all of your database at once--only what's needed when it is. (Other people can access your pertinent information by being in your house and such, of course.)

And offhand, I don't think much of it streams graphics to you or anything else--just the pertinent information for your computer to build the rest. Caches are, of course, built as you go by your machine for your machine, so also doesn't involve the server-side, and though they've been getting larger, could likely be worked out to work better with less if we're talking about lower-latency flash storage. (Though I'm not sure if "more" would still work out better than "faster." Probably in some situations one, and in some the other.) Most of the server-side storage for anything user-created would be in your however-many-meg database file (3MB sounds appropriate, as it can get big enough to be annoying if they had to do it for bajillions of characters, but is reasonable enough for accessing what chunks are needed), and gets streamed to cache when you run across people.

SWG is probably around 1.5k-2k a sec avg. If I remember my figures correctly.

I'm sorta curious about this now, so I feel like testing. Know a good bandwidth meter I could use? ^_^

Or you get smart (and ahead of schedule) and include expansion material on the first disk which remains "hidden". That's pretty rare in this industry though.

Probably--most MMORPG's don't seem to work that far ahead, and area releasing content about as quickly as they can get it bug-tested. Or before it's fully tested.

Oh, and including the original game along with expansion material on the same media later on is not necessarily that easy. What if you originally took up 97% of the space on your media delivery method which left you little to no room for tangible assets?

Hence my concern with not knowing what media is going to be supported by the next generation yet. ^_^ If it's still DVD (or DVD-sized proprietary media), I think 2006+ MMORPG's could well run into problems. (Or at least notable trade-offs.) We also don't know their access times and streaming capabilities, so it's not like all questions can be answered here at the moment. Just with the conjek-shur-izin'.

 

[Qroach]

Oh, and including the original game along with expansion material on the same media later on is not necessarily that easy. What if you originally took up 97% of the space on your media delivery method which left you little to no room for tangible assets?

Everquest and all of it's addons probably don't add up to 9 gigs of data. If the disk is full or the addon would take up that much space, you might as well sell it as a completly new game. This is for updates that are hundreds of mega in size. I can't see an addon or expansion reaching upwards of 2 gigs, other wise thatd be enough content for a full game.

unless the game uses tons of video footage, but that's not the kind of RPG game I'm talking about.

 

[cthellis42]

Everquest and all of it's addons probably don't add up to 9 gigs of data. If the disk is full or the addon would take up that much space, you might as well sell it as a completly new game. This is for updates that are hundreds of mega in size. I can't see an addon or expansion reaching upwards of 2 gigs, other wise thatd be enough content for a full game.

unless the game uses tons of video footage, but that's not the kind of RPG game I'm talking about.

At the moment, no, but games keep taking up more and more space, and even 2 gigs worth of expansion material would likely be a lot of expansion, and a lot of replacement/modification/updating of older files, so it would be hard (and/or annoying, and/or not worth the extra development) to mix and match sources, methinks. "Lots of space" will the the weapon of choice for the time being.

EQ also isn't one of the best games to look at, as only its sheer size gives it the space requirements it has, as the engine and assets are very low-quality compared to newer ones. (Which get near or break 2GB to start, and have nowhere near the comparative content. FFXI is the bulkiest so far, but no doubt WoW and EQ2 and the like will be huge, and next generation's consoles will be the likeliest recipients of those and anything after, which will just up the demand.) We'll have to see what EQ's upcoming "DX9 engine" will do for it as far as graphical demand... I don't think they're redesigning all the old zones though, but making the engine peppier, adding character effects, and paving the grounds for future complexity in expansions.

By 2006, 9GB may not be out of line. Heck, if FFXI makes it that long, it will probably come close by itself! Heh...

 

[Qroach]

EQ also isn't one of the best games to look at...

Sure it is. It's a very sucessfull MMORPG that has had a whole lot of expansions.

...as only its sheer size gives it the space requirements it has, as the engine and assets are very low-quality compared to newer ones. (Which get near or break 2GB to start,

That's part of the reason it's as large as it currently is. Everquest has multiple levels of detail so it can run on differtn speed machines. that somehting that wouldn't be needed nearly as much on a console a MMORPG as each person has the same hardware.

FFXI is the bulkiest so far

Ok, but does it fill a full DVD 9?

but no doubt WoW and EQ2 and the like will be huge, and next generation's consoles will be the likeliest recipients of those and anything after, which will just up the demand.)

Well those are both games we know very little about regarding thier size, so we should wait until those game are out of the market and have expensions/addons/

By 2006, 9GB may not be out of line. Heck, if FFXI makes it that long, it will probably come close by itself! Heh...

I'm just using DVD 9 in my argument because it's whaat current consoles have. Thier are other formats out there that allow for far more space and it's possible they could be used on next gen consoles.

 

[Ty]

Ok, by "created information" I mean any data that is created by the user that requires some sort of storage, or anything like a swap file/cache the game creates itself.

Ok, in that case, it's generally not that much information anyhow. As I mentioned above, a game as complex as SWG is only about 3 megs (your IT dept. may scream however) per character.

Exactly. ^_^ And even of that, how much actually gets streamed to you at what time? Your visual reference when loading, certainly, and your local information (datapad, some/most inventory), but your bank inventory sits around until your access it, your buildings don't show until you get close enough to them, the items inside your buildings until you actually enter... You don't access all of your database at once--only what's needed when it is. (Other people can access your pertinent information by being in your house and such, of course.)

Yes, most of the information within your character's DB is not even needed by your client (since the server is authoritative as possible). And even when accessing large amounts of information, the data is likely paginated anyhow.

I'm sorta curious about this now, so I feel like testing. Know a good bandwidth meter I could use? ^_^

Sorry, those were figures I was given sometime ago.

Everquest and all of it's addons probably don't add up to 9 gigs of data.

I may have missed this but was it confirmed that the XBox2 DVD will be capable of reading a 9 gig disc?

Btw, wait for the PR on EQ2's "feature". And the CD count will be huge.

I'm just using DVD 9 in my argument because it's whaat current consoles have.

Really?!? I never knew that. Or are you counting flipping the disc over?

 

[Qroach]

may have missed this but was it confirmed that the XBox2 DVD will be capable of reading a 9 gig disc?

nope, not confirmed but since it's what all xbox games curently ship on, experience tells me MS won't use a medium that has a smaller capacity on xbox 2.

Really?!? I never knew that. Or are you counting flipping the disc over?

Nope, all xbox games come on DVD 9's and some PS2 games after launch shipped on CD's and DVD 4.5 disks, I don't recall if sony bothered with DVD 9's but I wouldn't be suprised if they used them also.

 

[RaolinDarksbane]

Xenosaga

 

[cthellis42]

EQ also isn't one of the best games to look at...

Sure it is. It's a very sucessfull MMORPG that has had a whole lot of expansions.

Obviously I was referring to its visuals, which take up the brunt of storage space on any MMORPG.

That's part of the reason it's as large as it currently is. Everquest has multiple levels of detail so it can run on differtn speed machines. that somehting that wouldn't be needed nearly as much on a console a MMORPG as each person has the same hardware.

And yet it's smaller than most starting MMORPGs now despite a number of revisions and five years of additional content. The graphical target makes a LOT of difference in the necessary size of the final product.

FFXI is the bulkiest so far

Ok, but does it fill a full DVD 9?

Obviously not, but there's a different set of questions that goes along with that. How limited would MMORPG's be streaming off a disk? If there were no huge issues with that, it would hardly matter, but looking at what I'm able to see right now with disk-based vs. HD-based MMO's, the gap between them is pretty huge, in quality and likely in capabilities. Just what IS involved, and are developers going to opt for that route in the future? For "full strength" MMORPG's the way we see them now and think of them in general, I don't see them running primarily off DVD-ROM of any size. (Which also puts a crimp in expecting DVD with flash storage for patchwork, additional content, caching...)

Developers could certainly prove us wrong, and perhaps the ROM drives in the future will be much more capable as well, but the games are scaling in power and complexity as well, so I'm not placing any bets. (Seems a lot more likely they'd go with what they know.)

Well those are both games we know very little about regarding thier size, so we should wait until those game are out of the market and have expensions/addons/

We have to wait on a lot of things, but examining the trends (and noting just what some games are trying to pull off), the expectation certainly isn't out of line.

 

[Fafalada]

But Faf! new rumoured specs of XB2 suggest that the games development is going to be anything but easy... (compared to XB1)?

Well I didn't say anything about it being easy - only referred to the the maturity of development environment & tools. PS3 is still relatively big unknown in regards to how those will pan out.
The shift of certain programming paradigms with new consoles will just be something people will have to get used to.

If PlayStation 3 has a more radical architecture, I think quality of Xbox 2 and N5 ports might drop, if PlayStation 3 were to be a developers leading platform.

If PS3 has the highest spec but still becomes baseline platform, the ports to others will suffer even if the architectures are very similar. Majority of XBox->GC/PS2 ports demonstrate that all too well.
That aside, I figure any of the manufacturers would be happy with having a lead platform with software that isn't easy to port around.