Nintendo Switch Technical discussion [SOC = Tegra X1]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Alucardx23, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Goodtwin

    Veteran Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    578


    Looks like Panic Button continues to perfect their craft with porting games to Switch. The framerate in W2 looks very stable so far even in this prerelease build. Compromises seems similar to Doom, framerate dropped to 30fps (but seems more consistent than Doom was prior to patch), resolution dropped to 720p, and texture quality sees a similar reduction. ID Tech 6 just seems to play nice with the Tegra hardware. The overall look of the game is retained, and while the compromises are easy to identigy when you put it side by side with the PS4 build, its darn impressive what they have been able to do with a stock Tegra X1 processor. On paper, that meager 25GB/s of memory bandwidth seemed crazy low, and it is, but it hasn't been an insurmountable limitation. I would be interested to know just how much ID Tech 6 leverages half precision shaders, I am too this day curious to know just how beneficial that feature has been games on Switch that utilize them.

    Panic Button has continued to tune Rocket League on Switch. The latest patch significantly increased resolution in both docked and portable mode. I have had Rocket League on Switch since the game released, and I must say, it was not a very attractive game. In portable mode, the game looked like a good Wii game really. Resolution was low and with no real AA solution it was a jaggy mess. Docked was much better, but still a huge visual downgrade from playing with my nephew on his Xbox One. The recent patch really cleaned up the game a ton. The boost to 900p in docked makes the jaggys much less noticeable, and the textures all seem cleaner now. Performance is even more stable than before, so all this has come from uncompromising optimization.

    Then we have news that Ark Survival Evolved was coming to Switch, and the developers comments will probably shock a lot of people.

     
    RootKit and Karamazov like this.
  2. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,123
    Likes Received:
    2,225
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    Switch is within the scalability envelope for many games due to its use of a modern graphics architecture and having a reasonable amount of memory (especially for a handheld).

    This is a good thing. The hardware might never have been cutting edge, but it's pretty damn capable for its power envelope. It's a really solid device.
     
    AlBran and Goodtwin like this.
  3. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    604
    This game should not be used for any comparison...

    Edit : i didn't see their comments.

    Honestly, why should we consider what they say when AAA games already gave their anwser. If the gap in Doom is not a large gap, then i don't know what "large" means in their mind...
     
    #983 Recop, Apr 8, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
    CSI PC and BRiT like this.
  4. Tkumpathenurpahl

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    947
    Likes Received:
    676
    What steps could be taken to reduce the manufacturing cost of the Switch?

    There are four unused cores, so removing them for a 14nm redesign should save them some silicon. Is there anything else?
     
  5. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,801
    Likes Received:
    2,170
    Location:
    La-la land
    BRiT likes this.
  6. Liandry

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    37
    Why Switch needs active cooling? It's CPU and GPU works on frequencies a lot lover than in smartphones and they don't have active cooling.
     
  7. bgroovy

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    418
    SoCs in phones are designed to run at peak clock speeds only for very short periods and spend the vast majority of their time at low frequencies. Switch required sustained, predictable performance which is why they use active cooling and fixed frequencies.
     
    AlBran likes this.
  8. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,520
    Likes Received:
    4,175
    Which smartphones?
    The TX1 is made on TSMC's planar 20nm. High-end smartphone SoCs were made on Samsung's 14LPP since 2015 (S820), in Q2 2017 they transitioned to 10LPE (S835 & Exynos 8895) and now they're on 10LPP (S845 & Exynos 9810), all FinFet.

    Temperature-wise, TSMC's 20nm was pretty much a dud for mobile devices, as S810's overheating problems are widely known.


    The S845 reversed that trend a bit (seemingly because Qualcomm tried to save die area with the Adreno 630 which is smaller than its predecessor) , but until very recently the difference between peak and sustained GPU clocks wasn't that big.
    Se e.g. the Pixel XL (S820) and the Pixel XL 2 (S835):

    [​IMG]
     
    Goodtwin likes this.
  9. Theeoo

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2017
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    64
    Switch on 7 nm should have great battery life.
     
  10. Theeoo

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2017
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    64
    Then again, I think the costs to design on 7nm are several hundred millions so maybe it'll be a while before we see a 7nm revision. Oh well, I can wait.
     
  11. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    604
    Silent_Buddha and BRiT like this.
  12. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    15,553
    Likes Received:
    4,457
    Heh, that was an amusing read on the first page.

    :D

    That said I wonder how much effort Epic put into this? Paladins (Unreal Engine 3) with a similar art style operates at 60 FPS on the Switch.

    They used the console assets instead of the mobile assets. I would have thought using the mobile assets and settings would have been more appropriate for the Switch version. It'd likely still run at 30 FPS but probably wouldn't drop to 480p as often (I know 360p is lowest but it rarely hits that).

    I dunno, seems to be a lazier port than the mobile version of the game (also 30 FPS). They should have pared back some settings more for either a more consistent framerate or like Paladins tried to get 60 FPS.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  13. Goodtwin

    Veteran Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    578
    I would expect Epic to polish it up with some patches "if" there is a good response from the Switch community. If Switch proved to be a solid revenue stream for Epic, then I would expect to see a bit more work bringing the game up to par. I have played a few hours of Fortnite so far on Switch, and the framerate holds steady while exploring, but dips when there is a decent firefight going down with multiple players. Paladins is certainly the better performer on Switch, but Fornite's map is far larger, so its not really a fair comparison even though the visuals have a similar aesthetic. Seeing as how there is a mobile build, and those players still compete with everyone else, why not take that as the foundation for Switch and scale up from there until a locked 30fps becomes problematic. Seems like a locked framerate was not prioritized.

    Who insinuated secret sauce? The positive opinion of UE4 on Switch stems from the day one support, and evolving updates that continue to improve the engine on the platform. Nintendo themselves are using UE4 for some of their own first party games. Of course they will still use customized code to maximize the results, but it obviously delivers a great foundation for developers to build on. Bottom line is the fact that UE4 natively supports Switch has been a positive thing for the platform, and the engine is very popular with many developers.

    UE3 doesn't natively support Switch, but developers haven't exactly had much trouble. Rocket League and Outlast 1 & 2 both use Unreal Engine 3, and have had successful ports to Switch.

    Another tidbit for just how easy Switch is to develop for comes from Crash Bandicoot N-sane Trilogy. The port to Switch stems from a single programmer spending a weekend getting a level up and running on Switch. He managed to accomplish this and this green lighted the port to Switch. After the horrendous rollout of Wii U, with terrible development tools and documentation, Switch has been a complete turnaround. Modern architecture, and just powerful enough to accommodate some of the modern AAA games.
     
    Silent_Buddha and AlBran like this.
  14. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    604
    No, the positive opinion was based on Snake Pass, a small indie game that should not have been used as a benchmark by any rational person...

    If you want a true benchmark, use an AAA game from a prestigious developper.

    Everything else is a waste of time...
     
    #994 Recop, Jun 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    BRiT likes this.
  15. Goodtwin

    Veteran Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    578
    Well Snake Pass was the first UE4 game to release on Switch, and it looked and ran rather nice. So sure, it did start with Snake Pass, but current praise comes from just how many games that have come to Switch, or will be coming to Switch will use UE4. When Nintendo themselves have projects using UE4, that says something, and its hardly a negative. Both Yoshi and Smash Bros Ultimate are using UE4, and Metroid Prime 4 is rumored to be using it.

    We have true benchmarks on Switch at this point. Doom, Wolfenstein 2, Skyrim Remastered along with all of Nintendo's first party games have made it clear that Switch splits the gap between last gen consoles and current gen. Portable mode its only marginally more powerful than last gen, but the modern architecture and more memory still allow it to outclass those machines by a decent margin.

    Even with EA and their custom Fifa engine for Switch, I do not see why people are hung up on it not using Frostbite. This years edition is proving to close the gap further, and the custom engine seems to be providing the best possible solution for Switch while maintaining the desired 60fps.
     
  16. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    604
    Doom and WF2 are indeed benchmarks, not Skyrim... and based ond Doom, the gap is very large.

    The gap between the XB1 version of Doom and the Switch version is much larger than that between the WiiU version of Zelda vs the Switch.

    For Doom :

    - Half the framerate
    - Much lower resolution
    - Much lower graphic settings

    For Zelda :

    - Lower resolution and that's basically the only noticeable difference

    The Switch seems to be closer than last gen consoles than current ones...
     
  17. phoenix_chipset

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    246
    Simply hacking away at a game for a port conversion is never going to yield the best results which is what doom is. Like a first year port is going to max out a console? And Zelda I just think was rushed to launch. Switch HAD to launch with zelda. Mk8 I think had more effort put into its port, and mk8 really pushed wii u just like zelda but it‘s 1080p > 720p not 900p > 720p like zelda. Every other wii u port is full 1080p too.

    Switch is way closer to xb1 than it is to 360 just by its arch and 4gb ram alone... Ue4 would choke on last gen.
     
  18. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    604
    The difference between 720p/1080p is still much lower than that of Doom...

    About WF2 : "We pixel counted a wide variety of shots from the docked mode, and came up with a whole host of results. Everything ranging from a top end of 720p to 1216x684 to 540p and 432p all the way down to 640x360."

    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-wolfenstein-2-switch-tech-analysis

    On XB1: "At the bottom of the pile sits Xbox One, handing in a 1440x810 presentation"

    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...tein-2-scales-across-the-console-power-ladder

    The difference between 810p and 360p is : 406%

    All of that at half the framerate and much lower graphic settings. Here is the cold truth... you can repeat as much as you want that the Switch is closer to current gen consoles, it's not supported by actual evidence, i'm sorry...

    Every game that runs on Switch at 1080p could run on last gen consoles at 720p.
     
    #998 Recop, Jun 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
    BRiT likes this.
  19. phoenix_chipset

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    246
    I'm supposed to believe something at 360p with reconstruction is the best switch can do? I'm not saying panic button doesn't work hard, but wolf 2 is an obvious chop shop port not made with switches limitations in mind. Let me know when those 1080p games and ue4 show up on 360 ps3. 512mb of ram is not closer to switch than the latter is to current gen. Wii u is graphically ahead of last gen so I don't think 360 would run mk8 at 720p. Deferred rendered games with that detail at 60fps don't exist on last gen.
     
    Silent_Buddha, pharma and milk like this.
  20. phoenix_chipset

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    246
    John specifically stated in the wolf 2 analysis that switch is closer to last gen in *portable mode*, which I would agree with but not docked. If you ape digital foundry's opinion be consistent. On mobile so can't edit mods.
     
    Goodtwin, Silent_Buddha and pharma like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...