Nintendo confirms low price and no Hi Def for Revolution

[Ty]

There are many control schemes that could be mapped to the freestyle controller. One is a direct 1:1 method, which I'm 100% sure would never be used in an FPS.

Well I doubt it would be 1:1 (1 degree for 1 degree) simply for the fact that most FPS games have an FOV of at least 90 degrees whereas a monitor doesn't display a 90 degree arc to the person unless they are sitting pretty close to it. Afaik anyhow.

How about this? Inside a 90 degree cone in front of you the aiming reticle is slaved to your movements, but your character turns 4 degrees for every 1 degree you turn (now you can aim behind you by turning your wrist only 45 degrees).

The problem with this then, is that what you are aiming at via the controller is NOT what the center point of the screen is aiming at, which is typically your gun. Maybe if your gun barrel swiveled (i.e. you could aim away from the center point of the screen as well) it might work.

I also wonder how sick this might make people as well (motion sickness).

Perhaps Nintendo isn't going to make FPS shooter games like UT2004?

 

[OtakingGX]

Well I doubt it would be 1:1 (1 degree for 1 degree) simply for the fact that most FPS games have an FOV of at least 90 degrees whereas a monitor doesn't display a 90 degree arc to the person unless they are sitting pretty close to it. Afaik anyhow.

Better yet, you could have 1:1 control, within, say, 15 degrees from directly forward. Then 3:1 within the next 15, and then finally 8:1 for the last remaining 15 degrees. Or perhaps a more continuous transition, but you get the idea.

The problem with this then, is that what you are aiming at via the controller is NOT what the center point of the screen is aiming at, which is typically your gun. Maybe if your gun barrel swiveled (i.e. you could aim away from the center point of the screen as well) it might work.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you mean that the point that you're pointing at in space does not correspond to something on the screen, then yes, you're right, because the controller is not being used as a light gun. Likely you're not even pointing directly at the TV screen. To "swivel" your gun barrel you push the controller forward. Now your gun does follow exactly what you're pointing at on the TV screen.

As far as thumbstick use goes, I envision it as being just for movement. So up/down is forward and back and left/right causes you to strafe. You could even get really complex and tighten the cone while strafing so that you can turn quicker to execute a circle strafe.

I also wonder how sick this might make people as well (motion sickness).

Perhaps Nintendo isn't going to make FPS shooter games like UT2004?

I imagine the usual motion sickness and epileptic seizure warnings would apply. I don't see using a freestyle controller to contributing to additional motion sickness. If anything, it might lessen the effects. Usually motion sickness comes about due to a disparity between what the body feels and what the eyes see. Perhaps being able to feel how you're moving in the game would alleviate that for people who get sick playing 3D computer games.

And I'm sure Nintendo won't be making UT2K4 style shooters, but I bet Retro will be making a Metroid game and many publishers will be exploring the FPS possibilities on it.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

And I'm sure Nintendo won't be making UT2K4 style shooters, but I bet Retro will be making a Metroid game and many publishers will be exploring the FPS possibilities on it.

NSTC is currently working one futuristic fpser, Retro, Ubi Soft, & others as well. Two internally produced fpsers, as well as others Nintendo will be publishing. Nice interface control ideas btw.

 

[fulcizombie]

Nintendo shouldn't push the "We have the cheap console" slogan so much because by the time the revolution comes out ,the xox360 core console could cost 199$ so the price "advantage" of the rev. could ,potentially,be thrown out of the window.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

I will buy the next Nintindo console once it reaches the magic price point ($99) untill then I got a PS2 and NGC to keep me company not to mention one monster of a gaming rig.........

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Here, let me make an example for you...

Just to agree with the other's who've rsponded, you're only imagining one control scheme. There's other ways to do things that wouldn't be so restrictive. It's a 3 dimensional controller with D buttons, pointer and thumbstick attachment. They could keep the pointer function for aiming, and have the thumbstick for turning, turning faster/slower depending on how near the edge of the screen you were aiming. Or use twisting of the controller to turn, with thumbstick to strafe. Or use an area outside the frame of the screen for turning, with the more you point the controller away from the screen, the faster you turn. Or use the D-buttons as quick turns, to the left 90 degrees, right 90 degrees, 180 on the down button. And any number of combinations that they test and refine. And any number of other systems that I haven't covered.

I think the main reason you don't see the controller as a good thing is a lack of imagination, and you're trying to map existing control schemes onto a different device. How to get mouse and keyboard onto a Rev controller, instead of hoe to make the most of the Rev controller through a new interface.

 

[Powderkeg]

They could keep the pointer function for aiming, and have the thumbstick for turning, turning faster/slower depending on how near the edge of the screen you were aiming.

Then you lose your strafe.

Or use twisting of the controller to turn, with thumbstick to strafe.

Which is precisely the scheme I described.

Or use an area outside the frame of the screen for turning, with the more you point the controller away from the screen, the faster you turn.

Which relies on the game to control your actual rate of turning, just like I said.

Or use the D-buttons as quick turns, to the left 90 degrees, right 90 degrees, 180 on the down button.

Which again leaves the game in control of your rate of turning.

And any number of combinations that they test and refine. And any number of other systems that I haven't covered.

Which so far hasn't been anything I didn't already cover.

I think the main reason you don't see the controller as a good thing is a lack of imagination, and you're trying to map existing control schemes onto a different device. How to get mouse and keyboard onto a Rev controller, instead of hoe to make the most of the Rev controller through a new interface.

I think your imagination has run wild.

The Revolution is nothing more than a slightly different way of entering in the same control inputs. Up, down, left, right, forward, back, tilt, buttons, thumbstick. That's the controller, and it's inputs are just like every other controller. The only difference is how those inputs are made. Instead of pushing a stick, you push the controller.

There is no magical Revolution inputs. It's not issuing commands to the console that no other controller can make.


Now, I realize that for the typical Nintendo "fan" it's much easier to say "Oh Powderkeg is just trolling" rather than to let go of your rose tinited dreams, but here is a little fact.

You can either have a 1:1 ratio of controller movement to game movement, or you can let the game control the rate of movement.

That's it, there is no other choice, and all of your fanatical Nintendo support isn't going to change that fact.

Now, since I doubt any developer will ever have you face away from the TV to make game inputs then I think we can safely assume that rate of movement will be limited by the game.

If you are going to say I am wrong then why don't you try telling me how you can do a 360 degree circle with a 1:1 ratio of controller movement to game movement without having to turn the controller in 360 degrees as well.

Because if you don't have to turn the controller 360 degrees then you aren't getting a 1:1 ratio of controller to game movement, in which case the game is controlling the rate of movement, not you.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The Revolution is nothing more than a slightly different way of entering in the same control inputs. Up, down, left, right, forward, back, tilt, buttons, thumbstick. That's the controller, and it's inputs are just like every other controller. The only difference is how those inputs are made. Instead of pushing a stick, you push the controller.

I'm not really arguing that. I'm talking about your idea Rev isn't suiotable for FPS. But to be clear Rev does offer more than a PC. A DS2 has four analogue DOF (ignoring analogue buttons). A PC has two analogue DOF (mouse). The Rev controller has 5 (pitch, title, yaw, thumbstick forward/back, thumbstick left/right).

EDIT : Actually doesn't Rev contoller have another 3 analogue inputs in position in 3D space. There's pitch, yaw, tilt, vertical position, horizontal position, ummm...z position, thumbstick forward/back and thumbstick left/right. You can move the controller laterally as well as turning and twisting it.

Because if you don't have to turn the controller 360 degrees then you aren't getting a 1:1 ratio of controller to game movement, in which case the game is controlling the rate of movement, not you.

Huh? A mouse isn't a one-to-one ratio of movement. To turn 180 degrees you move your mouse 1" or 2" or half an inch, depending on the control speed settings of the game/mouse.

A PC with FPS has a 2 dimensional analogue mouse input, mapping mouse speed to movement rate, and a collection of digital buttons. These buttons are mapped to strafe, move and quick turn say, in simple on/off action. There's no variation to speed of sidestepping left; just left or not. Using these two input methods the game is controlling the rate of movement. You run, turn and strafe at the speed the game is set to. Your quick turn key turns you 90 degrees. Your mouse turns you as quick as you set the mouse sensitivity.

A DS2 controller provides 2 2D analogue input in the thumbsticks, and several buttons (also analogue but rarely used as much). Using a thumbstick to turn you the game controls the rate of movement based on how much you push the stick, exactly the same as a PC game controls the rate of movement mapped onto the mouse. The L1/R1 buttons could be mapped to a 90 degree turn each direction, same as the PC.

The Rev controller provides 3 1D analogue inputs in pitch, yaw and roll angles, plus a 2D thumbstick, plus several digital buttons. You can thus use one of the 1D inputs for turning, the other two for pointing, and the 2D controller for analogue motion forwards and sideways.

Now maybe I'm being amazingly thick, but what on earth are you managing to do on PC that you can't do on Revolution? And how on earth is the Revolution limited to the game deciding how fast you can move any different to a PC? I don't at all understand what you mean by leaving the game in control of your rate of motion. That's the same in any software. You only move as fast, turn as fast, jump as high and aim as quick as the software enables you to.

 

[Teasy]

I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore Powderkeg, its not getting through.

BTW Shifty I was reading Edge Magazines big Revolution article recently in there TGS issue (well it was more like a Revolution issue to be honest but it was supposed to be a TGS issue ). In that article Edge mention that when the thumb stick is attatched to the Revolution controller it can then also detect movement like the main controller! So you could use it for stuff like leaning round walls and ducking ect while simultaneously aiming with the main controller and moving with the analog stick.

 

[pc999]

And our imagination still on somewhat more conventional controls, BTW you can also think in fast movements (fast rotations with the arm (clock like), or with the wristle ... for automatic moves like the U-turn)

I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore Powderkeg, its not getting through.

BTW Shifty I was reading Edge Magazines big Revolution article recently in there TGS issue (well it was more like a Revolution issue to be honest but it was supposed to be a TGS issue ). In that article Edge mention that when the thumb stick is attatched to the Revolution controller it can then also detect movement like the main controller! So you could use it for stuff like leaning round walls and ducking ect while simultaneously aiming with the main controller and moving with the analog stick.

Really, that is so

 

[Magnum PI]

No High-Def ?

They just losed my money.

Why would anyone buy another 640 X 480 console.

Just for the controller ?

I don't buy a resolution, I buy a console, and while a better resolution will improve appearance of games and make them more immersive, a new controller will add to, as it will allow new forms of interactions, new kinds of gameplay.

better resolution = incremental progress
new controller = innovation

 

[OtakingGX]

You can either have a 1:1 ratio of controller movement to game movement, or you can let the game control the rate of movement.

You obviously didn't read either of my posts before you said this. I detailed in them precisely a way to do this.

To simplify things, don't think of your mouse as your input, but your mousepad. Now place that square surface in front of you. Instead of moving a mouse around on it, you point at locations on it with the freestyle. There, now you could turn 360 degrees without having to become a contortionist and touch the back of your hand to your forearm.

As I pointed out, you can make the system much more sophisticated and elegant, and incorporate the light gun feature into the input mechanism as well.

 

[Powderkeg]

I'm not really arguing that. I'm talking about your idea Rev isn't suiotable for FPS.

I didn't say it wasn't suitable.

Why don't you stop being such a blind fanperson and actually address what I did say instead of making stuff up?

But to be clear Rev does offer more than a PC. A DS2 has four analogue DOF (ignoring analogue buttons). A PC has two analogue DOF (mouse).

The PC also has the keyboard, but I don't guess it ever occured to you to map the other 2 DOF's to the keyboard, did it?

The Rev controller has 5 (pitch, title, yaw, thumbstick forward/back, thumbstick left/right).

EDIT : Actually doesn't Rev contoller have another 3 analogue inputs in position in 3D space. There's pitch, yaw, tilt, vertical position, horizontal position, ummm...z position, thumbstick forward/back and thumbstick left/right. You can move the controller laterally as well as turning and twisting it.

Forward, back, move left, move right, lean left, lean right, jump, duck, and a mouse to look up, down, left and right.

Yep, I can do all of that on a PC. In fact, I have a hard time remembering the last PC FPS where I didn't do all of that.

What what does this have to do with my point? Or are you just going off on some tangent because you cannot dispute my point?

Huh? A mouse isn't a one-to-one ratio of movement. To turn 180 degrees you move your mouse 1" or 2" or half an inch, depending on the control speed settings of the game/mouse.

A mouse can be and often is a 1:1 ratio of movment. If the mouse ball rotates 360 degrees you rotate 360 degrees in the game. I can adjust this to make it more or less depending on my own preferences.

But with the Revolution controller, you have no adjustment unless the game allows you one, and you are depending on the game to control your rotational speed.

blah blah blah

Your mouse turns you as quick as you set the mouse sensitivity.

Precisely.

Can you say the same about the Revolution controller, or is the sensitivity setting up to the developer?

Using a thumbstick to turn you the game controls the rate of movement based on how much you push the stick, exactly the same as a PC game controls the rate of movement mapped onto the mouse.

So, you look with the thumbstick, move with the controller, and aim with what? The thumbstick, since that's what controls your looking?

And aiming with a thumbstick is supposed to be better than a mouse? If that was true than every gamepad already made is better than a mouse. Why is it most people prefer the mouse then?

Oh, and FYI, turning with the thumbstick still leaves you with a limited rotational speed.

Now maybe I'm being amazingly thick, but what on earth are you managing to do on PC that you can't do on Revolution?

Turn 3 complete 360 spins in less than 1 second, and still get a per-pixel accuracy on aiming.

And how on earth is the Revolution limited to the game deciding how fast you can move any different to a PC?

Load up any FPS on your PC. Take your mouse and as fast as you can move it to the right as far as you can.

The result will be something you cannot do using the Revolution controller.

I don't at all understand what you mean by leaving the game in control of your rate of motion. That's the same in any software. You only move as fast, turn as fast, jump as high and aim as quick as the software enables you to.

Not true. With a PC I have 3 adjustments to speed. There is in-game sensitivity which can limit the speed, which is exactly what you will get with the Revolution.

But, with the PC, I can also increase the sensitivity in the OS.
I can also adjust the sample rate of the hardware itself.

The end result is I can move faster than what the game was designed for, and yet still maintaining that per-pixel accuracy.

This is the whole reason why FPS fans have preferred the mouse/keyboard to any other controller for over a decade.

 

[Teasy]

But with the Revolution controller, you have no adjustment unless the game allows you one, and you are depending on the game to control your rotational speed.

How the do you know that? Where do get this incredible insider info Powderkeg? You started off complaining and bashing the Revolution controller and now you've changed tack to software. Basically saying that if for some reason a game won't let you change sensetivity and if Nintendo also don't allow it to be configured then there will be a limit on how fast the controller moves on screen, well duh! That isn't a limit of the controller at all and there is no reason why sensetivity wouldn't be configurable. You're argument is similar to claiming that a mouse wouldn't work on a console because it somehow wouldn't be configurable..

Can you say the same about the Revolution controller, or is the sensitivity setting up to the developer?

I don't know, do you know? Your claiming that the Revolution controller has certain limits and then bringing up completely fictional software based limits, what's the point of doing that other then to be a total fan-boy?

Load up any FPS on your PC. Take your mouse and as fast as you can move it to the right as far as you can.

The result will be something you cannot do using the Revolution controller.

How is that something you wouldn't be able to do with the Revolution controller?

 

[PC-Engine]

I don't know, do you know? No you don't, your claiming that the Revolution controller has certain limits and then brining up completely fictional software based limits, what's the point of doing that other then to be a total fan-boy?

This is a common tactic ie come up with rediculous fantasy scenarios to support your argument when all else fails.:smile:

 

[Powderkeg]

How the do you know that? Where do get this incredible insider info Powderkeg?

Read the thread. I already explained this.

The rest of your post is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Too busy defending the system you're a fan of to even bother reading what I've said, and no attempt whatsoever to understand my point.

 

[Powderkeg]

This is a common tactic ie come up with rediculous fantasy scenarios to support your argument when all else fails.:smile:

His response? Yes, I agree.

But I would love for you in your infinite wisdom to explain how you can turn 360 degrees in the game without turning the controller 360 degrees, and yet have no limit on rotational speed.

If you think you're smart enough, of course.

 

[PC-Engine]

His response? Yes, I agree.

But I would love for you in your infinite wisdom to explain how you can turn 360 degrees in the game without turning the controller 360 degrees, and yet have no limit on rotational speed.

If you think you're smart enough, of course.

I think the burden is on you to prove it cannot be done which so far you've failed to do beyond fantasy scenarios.

In fact I already have a solution to your artificial roadblock, but I'd rather watch you futily argue your point. It makes for good comedy.

If you were smart you wouldn't go around arguing about how you cannot use a DVD slim drive in Revolution because the drive cost $200.

 

[Teasy]

You haven't explained any such thing Powderkeg and please save your "you haven't read the thread, you don't understand" excuses for another forum.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'll be nice and give a hint at possibilites.

Virtual desktop-like panning in conjunction with acceleration of controller movement. For example like a mouse you can control sensitivity AND acceleration. For Revolution acceleration would only kick in when you're pan outside of the immediate window. The faster you pan when you reach the outer edge the faster you turn. To spin you simply flick left or right beyond the tv screen at a higher speed than when aiming. In fact this is how the fishing controller on DC works. To hook a fish you snap the controller back or to the side.