Ninja Gaiden 2

Dr. Nick said:
What is the framerate of the comparison video all together? I know the TGS video the game was running in 60 but the video is only at 30fps. That might explain it but the game is still a work in progress.

As far as the look goes I think a lot of people have a problem with the plastic look. It seems to be more of a problem with the materials that make up the models rather than the models themselves. I'm not quite sure if changing the materials on the character will ruin the art style in Ninja Gaiden is less anime like than DOA. I asked one of the devs here about the use of normal maps in some of the quality games that have been released and the fact that they are all running at 30fps with the exception of COD4,looking at close ups of the models you can tell that they are not as clean though. I wanted to know if there is a connection between the two. It would be nice to get an answer on this. One thing I do know is that at least with this game I doubt 30fps is an option.
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Heavy use of normal maps in a scene vastly increases the amouting of PS work you have to do per frame.. As a result you'll tend to find that even heavily optimised renderers won't provide enough speed to allow you to render a typical GOW scene with high resolution normal maps on *everything*.. In the end you just have to balance what you have depending on the particular style you are going for.. So for example you may choose to lower the resolution of your normal maps (either in whole or in part..) in order to have more on more objects in the scene (however this leads to particularly visible artefacts where visible peturbation appears pixellated..) or you could choose to have less normal maps in scene objects and use the processing power to provide more effects, post-processing, better lighting etc..

In terms of NG2's framerate, I'm not sure exactly what it's running at but I agree that 30 fps for NG is probably not an option (heck 30fps for Itagaki in ANY game is probably not an option..:p)

Personally I really love the art style of the game and think it works really well.. Having heavily detailed (normal & detail maps everywhere) gets pretty boring after a while when you can look at a game and tell that the dev's just decided to throw it in in an attempt to "next-gen it up" over gunning for a particularly distinct visual flavour.. I guess the "detail-minimalistic" (in terms of texture detail) styles of games like NG, Super Mario Galaxy, LBP & Blue Dragon (& one title that some of the guys are working on at my studio..) resonates more with me than any GeOW-a-like (excluding GeOW itself which displays a really consistent and attractive artistic direction..) title trying to throw in as many tickbox effects as they can in an attempt to look cutting-edge..
 
archangelmorph said:
(heck 30fps for Itagaki in ANY game is probably not an option..:p)
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For a game like DOAX2, 30fps was an option and it may have worked if there were better gameplay options in that game to make it ...you know...fun but that wouldn't be the case for NG2. Right now I wouldn't want them to sacrifice anything shown in that video for the sake of graphics. If they are able to please many of the naysayers without giving up on one of the features in that video it would be awesome.

Thank you for your response. It is greatly appreciated
 
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DOAX2 wasn't 60fps :?: :oops:

archangelmorph said:
I guess the "detail-minimalistic" (in terms of texture detail) styles of games like NG, Super Mario Galaxy, LBP & Blue Dragon (& one title that some of the guys are working on at my studio..) resonates more with me than any GeOW-a-like (excluding GeOW itself which displays a really consistent and attractive artistic direction..) title trying to throw in as many tickbox effects as they can in an attempt to look cutting-edge..
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I like the style too. It's anime, but not the stereotypical sort with the giant eyes or wacky humour . It's a serious anime style.

I don't think I would ever want every game to be a Gears of War clone either. And it makes my blood boil when my buddy puts down every game just because "It doesn't look like Gears of War". Then again, this was coming from a person who believes games should look the same in split-screen as in single player whilst pushing the graphics envelope (i.e. cutting a sandwich in two and expecting two whole sandwiches). As much as I liked GoW's art direction, it was suited for itself.

For NG, I was always hoping that TN would bring the graphics fidelity closer to their pre-rendered movies. Their monster designs are pretty top notch, but maybe that's because I personally don't have any real-world expectations on what a monster should actually look like. :p

I'd be happy if they fix up the shadows and do 720p + 4xAA with what they show now even. I like how their bloody art direction fits so nicely with the huge bandwidth of the eDRAM. :cool:
 
AlStrong said:
For NG, I was always hoping that TN would bring the graphics fidelity closer to their pre-rendered movies.
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Exactly!

For those that say "well, this is their art direction and they have maxed it out", I say, "look at their cgi, then tell me they can't improve".

The models and animation are already top notch, they just need a better engine to bring their content to. Currently, they are maxed out using their old techniques and I'm sure Itagaki recognizes the rest of the industry is moving closer to his cgi than he is.

Then again, most of those games are running a (sometimes choppy) 30fps.

Still, I'd like to see him open up to the idea of trying out other engines with his content and see if he likes the results.

Somehow with his ego though, I doubt it will happen. :cry:
 
I'm not saying I want realistic character models. We already have a ton of that on the 360. I was trying to find out if there was a way of getting rid of the "action man" look without having to sacrifice framerate. Most of the games that do this or manage to hide it really well run at 30fps.

I do think it's possible to keep the anime inspired look while getting rid of the "action man" look like Hot Shots 5 and SC4 but I'm not sure if you can get it to run at the same framerate as DMC4 without giving up one of those cool features seen in that video. Maybe they could hide it with the use of filters. Body parts and blood everywhere with most of it staying on screen well after the battle is finished among other things is just awesome stuff.

For those that say "well, this is their art direction and they have maxed it out", I say, "look at their cgi, then tell me they can't improve".
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But you comparing it to CG. They can't use the same lighting. They could do things the Epic way an make create million polygon models and then have them normal mapped to hell but then we go back to the fact that most game that do this don't run at 60fps and if they do the models aren't very clean.
 
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I think they just ought to have a more robust shader material system to make things look less like action figures. A lot of the humanoid enemies are fully clothed or armoured, and they're only predicting a small group at a time too, so it shouldn't be that intensive. For monsters they can keep that slimey look I guess. Ryu is pretty much the only character with skin showing, and even that is limited to his arms most of the time.

I think things just look strange now because the shadows are borked.
 
Dr. Nick said:
But you comparing it to CG. They can't use the same lighting. They could do things the Epic way an make create million polygon models and then have them normal mapped to hell but then we go back to the fact that most game that do this don't run at 60fps and if they do the models aren't very clean.
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AlStrong said:
I think they just ought to have a more robust shader material system to make things look less like action figures. A lot of the humanoid enemies are fully clothed or armoured, and they're only predicting a small group at a time too, so it shouldn't be that intensive. For monsters they can keep that slimey look I guess. Ryu is pretty much the only character with skin showing, and even that is limited to his arms most of the time.

I think things just look strange now because the shadows are borked.
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Lighting (and shadow) is the biggest thing I think they need to improve. Shaders could also use improving too.

I don't see anything wrong with the models or the animation, but the xbox level lighting and shadow and shaders are really limiting this title (and team ninja) now.
 
I have no doubts that this will be the number one action game of all time when it arrives just like Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma still is today.
 
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I heard on a another forum that according to the IGN video interview, the game is basically "done" but now they're doing the fine tuning. I don't know if that means a spring release or a fall 2008 release though with how obsessive itagaki is.
 
I don't care if the game has average visuals and feels like nothing more than a Hurricane Pack in terms of upgrades, it will be mine. The crazy stylistic looking gore is enough for me. :D
 
kyleb said:
Since when did IGN start putting up vids at 60fps? :p
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:?:
I remember them doing that for the last couple years.

I really hope the game gets an upgrade by the time of release. it doesn't look bad but knowing what team ninja is capable of on xbox1, I'm hoping for a little bit more.
 
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