Nforce Soundstorn In Nforce 5 from Jen Hsun Hwang hmmmmm

[Himself]

Someone mentioned gfx and audio combined on a card, elsewhere someone mentioned using shaders for audio.

Maybe someone can explain to me how that could work beyond simple sharing a slot for two devices?

I don't see how you'd get A3D like processing from the gpu, all you know is the current vertex to be transformed, it's not a room, you don't know about other rooms or obstructions, and you'd definitely need bounding boxes or you are going to waste processing time. I have no idea how you could guarantee real time audio performance if you have to wait for the gfx to be processed and that is jumping up and down from 30fps to 60fps. And I don't see any API that would make all that work, or one that would be available any time soon, for one vendor basically. Audio would definitely have to be the priority for processing, even if it was simple sharing of computational resources, again two separate devices that are just integrated not cooperating. Sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[trinibwoy]

I do NOT use integrated NIC's because they are, more often than not, crap. I've spent over $150 on a NIC. Not only would you want to upgrade from 100MB to Gigabit but, you might also want to toss in a fiber card (or two) at some point. I hate integrated NICs. And Firewire cards? Can you say FIrewire 800? How about USB? What about all of those boards out there with only USB 1.1?

Well history is the counterargument. How many new boards are there with USB 1.1? How many new boards are there without firewire?

And exactly what do you do with your network that 100Mbps is insufficient? There are even boards with integrated gigabit ethernet now. Not even sure what your argument is since an integrated NIC does not preclude installing an add-in card for your uber-network.

 

[trinibwoy]

But it's different to me, soundcards evolve a lot quicker than networking protocals....and I've just had crap experience with any integrated sound solutions. :?

That's true now. But one day it will go the way of the NIC. Like I said before there's only so much you can do with sound hardware on the PC. Soon the cpu overhead will be negligible, we'll have more channels than we know what to do with, fully dolby encoding/decoding and superEAX III. Then what?

 

[Sage]

Well history is the counterargument. How many new boards are there with USB 1.1? How many new boards are there without firewire?

yes but how many boards today have USB 3.0? Or how about Firewire 1600? Don't you think that someday you might want to upgrade to a new type of USB or Firewire?

And exactly what do you do with your network that 100Mbps is insufficient? There are even boards with integrated gigabit ethernet now. Not even sure what your argument is since an integrated NIC does not preclude installing an add-in card for your uber-network.

actually, it's not throughput. well, it is when I'm xfering files in excess of 10GB. But, mainly it's CPU usage.

 

[Sage]

That's true now. But one day it will go the way of the NIC. Like I said before there's only so much you can do with sound hardware on the PC. Soon the cpu overhead will be negligible, we'll have more channels than we know what to do with, fully dolby encoding/decoding and superEAX III. Then what?

http://www.3com.com/products/en_US/detail.jsp?tab=features&pathtype=purchase&sku=3C996B-T

 

[trinibwoy]

That's true now. But one day it will go the way of the NIC. Like I said before there's only so much you can do with sound hardware on the PC. Soon the cpu overhead will be negligible, we'll have more channels than we know what to do with, fully dolby encoding/decoding and superEAX III. Then what?

http://www.3com.com/products/en_US/detail.jsp?tab=features&pathtype=purchase&sku=3C996B-T

What makes that better than this?

 

[trinibwoy]

yes but how many boards today have USB 3.0? Or how about Firewire 1600? Don't you think that someday you might want to upgrade to a new type of USB or Firewire?

Of course I would want to upgrade to it. When I actually have use for it. At which time there will be boards with integrated USB 3.0/Firewire 1600.

actually, it's not throughput. well, it is when I'm xfering files in excess of 10GB. But, mainly it's CPU usage.

Care to post some CPU usage numbers comparing the integrated NIC with an add-in card? You must really have a slow cpu for any difference there to motivate you to spend $$ on a NIC.

 

[Sage]

What makes that better than this?

Automatic link aggregation and failover lets you install multiple NIC connections

TCP/UDP/IP checksum offloads reduce host CPU load for improved system performance

PCI Hot-Plug lets you remove/replace server NICs without taking the server offline

Of course I would want to upgrade to it. When I actually have use for it. At which time there will be boards with integrated USB 3.0/Firewire 1600.

which would mean upgrading your entire motherboard which probably means upgrading CPU and memory as well

Care to post some CPU usage numbers comparing the integrated NIC with an add-in card? You must really have a slow cpu for any difference there to motivate you to spend $$ on a NIC.

I've seen benchmarks in which, under heavy load, CPU utilization was well over 70 percent.

 

[trinibwoy]

Automatic link aggregation and failover lets you install multiple NIC connections

TCP/UDP/IP checksum offloads reduce host CPU load for improved system performance

PCI Hot-Plug lets you remove/replace server NICs without taking the server offline

Are you really trying to justify upgrading the NIC in your desktop based on features that are obviously specific to enterprise applications and are irrelevant in the desktop space. Or do you routinely hot-plug the NICs in your PC ?

I've seen benchmarks in which, under heavy load, CPU utilization was well over 70 percent.

Links?

which would mean upgrading your entire motherboard which probably means upgrading CPU and memory as well

Nope. Care to guess how many boards support the Athlon and DDR ? Socket 939 is going to be around for a fair while too. You can't fight integration man. It's the future!!

 

[digitalwanderer]

Care to guess how many boards support the Athlon and DDR ? Socket 939 is going to be around for a fair while too.

That doesn't mean that people will be wanting/willing to upgrade their mobos for better features, I'd personally rather be able to just upgrade the bits I want to.

You can't fight integration man. It's the future!!

Sure you can! Just because you know you can't win a fight doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for it anyways.

 

[trinibwoy]

Care to guess how many boards support the Athlon and DDR ? Socket 939 is going to be around for a fair while too.

That doesn't mean that people will be wanting/willing to upgrade their mobos for better features, I'd personally rather be able to just upgrade the bits I want to.

I understand that point. But my argument is that there is no need to upgrade your NIC today. And that may be the case for sound in the near future. For a lot of people that's a reality today - a non-gamer friend of mine loves his SoundStorm and actually pulled his Audigy1 out of his machine.

You can't fight integration man. It's the future!!

Sure you can! Just because you know you can't win a fight doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for it anyways.

We're talking about soundcards here digi. No need to wax philosophical on overcoming oppression

 

[digitalwanderer]

We're talking about soundcards here digi. No need to wax philosophical on overcoming oppression

Meh, I tend to be a bit more passionate about everything than most.

 

[Sage]

TCP/UDP/IP checksum offloads reduce host CPU load for improved system performance

Are you really trying to justify upgrading the NIC in your desktop based on features that are obviously specific to enterprise applications and are irrelevant in the desktop space.

HUH!?

I've seen benchmarks in which, under heavy load, CPU utilization was well over 70 percent.

Links?

In a demonstration at "Grid Today 2004" Chelsio's host bus adapter, called the T110, will was shown transmitting standard 1500-Byte Ethernet frames in a peer-to-peer configuration at 7.8Gb throughput with less than 10 microseconds latency from user space to user space and 50% CPU utilization with a 2.2GHz Opteron-based server. The line-rate performance of the adapter stays consistent with equal and stable bandwidth per TCP connection, whether there is one or 10,000 connections.

The best performance other 10GE adapters on the market can claim in transferring standard Ethernet frames is only 3 to 4Gbps, with higher latency and more than 100% CPU utilization. This limitation of 10GE adapters has hindered the deployment of the otherwise ubiquitous Ethernet technology in HPC facilities. Some higher performance claims are sometimes made but these use Jumbo Ethernet (9000 Byte) frames, which still cannot achieve the performance of the Chelsio solution using standard Ethernet frames.

http://www.analogzone.com/netp0524.htm

which would mean upgrading your entire motherboard which probably means upgrading CPU and memory as well

Nope. Care to guess how many boards support the Athlon and DDR ? Socket 939 is going to be around for a fair while too. You can't fight integration man. It's the future!!

but why should i spend $150-$300 on, at the very least, a new motherboard just to get those new features? And what if I can't find another motherboard that I really like? (in all the computers I've built I've only come accross ONE motherboard that completely fullfilled my needs!) Not to mention the hassle![/quote]

 

[BRiT]

But it's different to me, soundcards evolve a lot quicker than networking protocals....and I've just had crap experience with any integrated sound solutions. :?

They do? You mean to tell me that Creative hasn't been releasing the same rehashed sound technology since the release of the original Emu-based SB-Live? How I see it, soundcards haven't advanced beyond the point of what A3D 2.0 had offered. It's actually regressed closer back to A3D 1.0, say A3D 1.5 if you would...

 

[trinibwoy]

http://www.analogzone.com/netp0524.htm

Can you PLEASE provide evidence of an add-in card significantly reducing cpu overhead in comparison to an integrated chipset in a DESKTOP application!!!!

but why should i spend $150-$300 on, at the very least, a new motherboard just to get those new features?

You won't be upgrading a motherboard "just" for those features. Anybody who would care enough to upgrade a NIC in a desktop PC isn't going to sit on the same motherboard for long anyway so you will just get those features as part of your regular upgrade cycle. And where did you get "$300 at the very least from" ?

Please don't throw out any more enterprise figures to try and justify a point.

 

[Sage]

Can you PLEASE provide evidence of an add-in card significantly reducing cpu overhead in comparison to an integrated chipset in a DESKTOP application!!!!

checksum offloading is going to have an effect on ALL applications and the more traffic you have the bigger the difference it's going to make. especially when you fire up kazaa and set it to 300 max downloads at once and completely fill that up. it destroys my CPU's. And, what are you gonna do when you need a server? Build a second computer and dedicate it to being a server? Why not just build your desktop so it can do everything you need it to.

but why should i spend $150-$300 on, at the very least, a new motherboard just to get those new features?

You won't be upgrading a motherboard "just" for those features. Anybody who would care enough to upgrade a NIC in a desktop PC isn't going to sit on the same motherboard for long anyway so you will just get those features as part of your regular upgrade cycle. And where did you get "$300 at the very least from" ?

Please don't throw out any more enterprise figures to try and justify a point.

okay, if you're not going to be upgrading your motherboard just for those features then what would you be upgrading for? I mean, if you're going to be using the same CPU and memory in the new board.... The motherboard I'm currently using doesn't have USB 2.0 or FireWire. And you don't have to keep buying ne NIC's all of the time- you buy one good one and it will last you 5 or more years. And I was getting 150-300 at the least. ie at the least you'll have to get a new mobo which will run you 150-300.

 

[trinibwoy]

You have 300 simultaneous Kazaa downloads? That is truly amazing. I would still like to see some numbers though. In my experience cpu overhead is low even when my 100Mbps NIC is maxed out on a LAN transfer.

The reasons I upgrade mobos are usually speed/overclocking or socket related. I went from AMD760 --> KT333 --> NF2U. Next up will probably be NF4U. In the progress I got "free" upgrades for USB/FIREWIRE/SATA/RAID/NIC/AUDIO.

From what you've said it is very evident that you use your machine as more than a 'PC'. I'd like to know what motherboards you buy at the $300 price point? And FYI if I wanted a server I would build one - I wouldnt build a desktop that wants to grow up to be a server

But that's enough head-knocking trying to work examples to suit our points.

 

[Sage]

You have 300 simultaneous Kazaa downloads? That is truly amazing. I would still like to see some numbers though. In my experience cpu overhead is low even when my 100Mbps NIC is maxed out on a LAN transfer.

well if i remember correctly it only allows 300 active connections. I usually have like 1000 in que.

The reasons I upgrade mobos are usually speed/overclocking or socket related. I went from AMD760 --> KT333 --> NF2U. Next up will probably be NF4U. In the progress I got "free" upgrades for USB/FIREWIRE/SATA/RAID/NIC/AUDIO.

but with an Athlon64 you don't really need to do all of that upgrading for a new mem controller. And as for overclocking- why not just get a good one the first time?

From what you've said it is very evident that you use your machine as more than a 'PC'. I'd like to know what motherboards you buy at the $300 price point? And FYI if I wanted a server I would build one - I wouldnt build a desktop that wants to grow up to be a server

But that's enough head-knocking trying to work examples to suit our points.

well, yes of course I use my computer for more than a word-processor or game console. Doesn't everyone? Heck, I even have an add-in harddrive controller although I've been planning for quite some time to get a nice hardware RAID controller.

I paid $250 for my current motherboard-
http://thetechlounge.dealtime.com/xPF-Iwill_Socket_370_DVD266u_RN

 

[trinibwoy]

Thought I said enough head-knocking Anyway here we go ....

but with an Athlon64 you don't really need to do all of that upgrading for a new mem controller. And as for overclocking- why not just get a good one the first time?

Obviously you haven't seen what a 3800+ A64 does to a 2.5Ghz XP. I'm not sure what you mean by 'get a good one the first time'. Faster, stabler and higher overclocking mobos are coming out all the time. As long as DDR speeds keep increasing motherboards will be playing catch up.

well, yes of course I use my computer for more than a word-processor or game console. Doesn't everyone?

What do you do with your machine beyond gaming that you think everyone else does?

I paid $250 for my current motherboard-
http://thetechlounge.dealtime.com/xPF-Iwill_Socket_370_DVD266u_RN

Umm that's a dual-cpu board with an ancient chipset. Last time I checked there weren't too many dual-cpu boards from tier-1 motherboard manufacturers. You are still going out of the core market to support your point.

 

[Sage]

Obviously you haven't seen what a 3800+ A64 does to a 2.5Ghz XP. I'm not sure what you mean by 'get a good one the first time'. Faster, stabler and higher overclocking mobos are coming out all the time. As long as DDR speeds keep increasing motherboards will be playing catch up.

i dont know why you are comparing A64's and AXP's. Are we once again tlaking about replacing the CPU? You thought you already decided that we WERENT talking about repacing the CPU?

What do you do with your machine beyond gaming that you think everyone else does?

well let's see here- filesharing, playing music and video, any number of hobbies (like, for me- video editing, photomanipulation, 3d animation), programming / compiling. etc etc.

Umm that's a dual-cpu board with an ancient chipset. Last time I checked there weren't too many dual-cpu boards from tier-1 motherboard manufacturers. You are still going out of the core market to support your point.

okay, so what if I'm going out of the core market? The core market is not the ONLY market. Really, only a very small number of people fit neatly into the "core market" box.