Next-Gen iPhone & iPhone Nano Speculation

I'm not sure we know the frequency for sure.

A6 is first incidence I've seen of 1066 MHz LPDDR2 so I assumed Krait is just 800 MHz so far. Unless you're referring to core frequency for A6? (1.02 GHz)

I suppose LPDDR3 wasn't ready in volume yet. Makes me think A6X may be A6 + LPDDR3 and G6200/G6400. I also wonder if the switch to TSMC is still coming.
 
Do any Tegra 3 devices out so far use 1066MT/s LPDDR2? You know, to at least make up a little for only having one channel.

And bear in mind, just because it's using RAM rated for some speed doesn't mean it's actually running it at that. This does happen sometimes.
 
Do any Tegra 3 devices out so far use 1066MT/s LPDDR2? You know, to at least make up a little for only having one channel.

And bear in mind, just because it's using RAM rated for some speed doesn't mean it's actually running it at that. This does happen sometimes.

Yes, but I've not heard of it in a mobile system. What would be the reason? Undervolting?
 
Yes, but I've not heard of it in a mobile system. What would be the reason? Undervolting?
Well since I've got the best example here; the 4412 uses 1066mbps memory but runs it at 800mbps, they do volt it at 950mV as opposed to the recommended nominal voltage of 1.2V in the datasheet at 1066mbps speeds, but the main reason I appear to see is that the chip can't handle (Either by design, or hardware limitation) those speeds.
 
A6 is first incidence I've seen of 1066 MHz LPDDR2 so I assumed Krait is just 800 MHz so far. Unless you're referring to core frequency for A6? (1.02 GHz)
Sorry, I was talking about CPU frequency. As long as we are not sure nothing about the micro-arch can be safely deduced.
 
And bear in mind, just because it's using RAM rated for some speed doesn't mean it's actually running it at that. This does happen sometimes.
It's unlikely the case for the iPhone 5. Although I haven't seen a review posting the whole Geekbench breakdown, reviews have found the overall Geekbench result for the iPhone 5 matching the previous leaked results so they are likely valid. Those leaked Geekbench results were showing memory bandwidth in Stdlib Write exceeding 6 GB/s. That isn't likely to be achievable if the A6 RAM was only clocked at LPDDR2-800 for a 6.4 GB/s theoretical bandwidth, so the full LPDDR2-1066 clock speed would need to be used.
 
Well since I've got the best example here; the 4412 uses 1066mbps memory but runs it at 800mbps, they do volt it at 950mV as opposed to the recommended nominal voltage of 1.2V in the datasheet at 1066mbps speeds, but the main reason I appear to see is that the chip can't handle (Either by design, or hardware limitation) those speeds.

You are saying the 4412 can't handle those speeds?

Sorry, I was talking about CPU frequency. As long as we are not sure nothing about the micro-arch can be safely deduced.

Well, I believe geekbench has accurately reported iphone frequencies before. Although dynamic clocking is always possible.

It's unlikely the case for the iPhone 5. Although I haven't seen a review posting the whole Geekbench breakdown, reviews have found the overall Geekbench result for the iPhone 5 matching the previous leaked results so they are likely valid. Those leaked Geekbench results were showing memory bandwidth in Stdlib Write exceeding 6 GB/s. That isn't likely to be achievable if the A6 RAM was only clocked at LPDDR2-800 for a 6.4 GB/s theoretical bandwidth, so the full LPDDR2-1066 clock speed would need to be used.

Ah, I should have checked that.
 
Well, I believe geekbench has accurately reported iphone frequencies before. Although dynamic clocking is always possible.
I don't think it does report correct frequencies in every situation: type iphone 4s in the result browser and see the reported frequency for overclocked devives ;)
 
It reported 900MHz for an early iPad 2 run. No reason why that shouldn't have been able to run at 1GHz.

I didn't know you could actually overclock even Jailbroken iOS devices.. in that case maybe we'll know the clock frequency of A6 soon?
 
You are saying the 4412 can't handle those speeds?
I have no idea if it can or not, I'm just saying that in the current register mapping used on the 4412 it is not possible to set up the memory controller clocks to 533MHz because we're working with a single divider which divides a 800MHz base source clock, and it can't be set, as far as I've studied the source code, to values in-between 400 and 800 (Divider value of 2 respectively 1, the divider register consists of 3 bits for 8 possible values, used frequencies are 100, 133, 160, 266, 400MHz in a DVFS policy ). And I'm not going to go and try to set it to 800MHz (1600 DDR) because I'd like to think I'm a reasonable man.

The Exynos 5250 on the other hand has a handful of dividers and registers available and is more free in configuring a target frequency.

I don't think it does report correct frequencies in every situation: type iphone 4s in the result browser and see the reported frequency for overclocked devives ;)
Geekbench gets its frequency from the maximum freq in the CPUFreq frequency list (Such a sentence). At least, that is how it is on the Android side of things. I don't think iOS does it differently, it is a flawed method to do the read-outs as the actual policy may be well below that. It doesn't represent the actual frequency of the CPU.
 
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Do any Tegra 3 devices out so far use 1066MT/s LPDDR2? You know, to at least make up a little for only having one channel.

And bear in mind, just because it's using RAM rated for some speed doesn't mean it's actually running it at that. This does happen sometimes.
Nope, Asus Transformer Prime Infinity equiped with T33 and 1600 MT/s DDR3L ram, even Nexus 7 is 1300 MT/s DDR3L, 1066MT/s nowadays used only in T3 phones
I shoild say that you guys are highly overestimating the importance of bandwidth for A9 SoCs, almost the double difference in bandwidth between T30S and T33 translates into 5-10% perf difference on clck to clck comparison on huge set of apps, of couse the most beneficial apps are multy threaded ones and games, while something like SunSpider is not benefit of additional BW at all, SunSpider is much more sensetive to caches, for example enabling double cache line fill gives 15-20% perf gain in it
 
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If the gl2.5 results in the following tables are to be believed:-

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410034,00.asp

Iphone5 is getting slight better offscreen 1080p results that the ipad3(27 v 25.2). Given that reports todate suggest that the A6 doesn't have as wide a memory interface as the A5X, does it suggest that they are clocking @ a good bit over 300mhz, maybe 325mhz or is the custom arm processors helping in the benchmarks in some way ?

A more direct comparison is 4s v 5.

4s gets 11fps offscreen, 5 gets 27fps, and improvement of 2.45. Iphone4s runs 543mp2@200mhz. If iphone5 runs its MP3@325mhz, then performance increase would be x2.43.

4s gets 19fps onscreen 5 gets 38fps, an exact doubling. However iphone5 has 18% more pixels than iphone4s, so a doubling of onscreen performance would be exactly what you would expect from an MP3@325mhz.

The above of course assumes there are no other improvements in the soc that would affect gpu benchmarks.


Update, first result for iphone5 hits the database proper. Only score is off-screen hd, and indeed it is outperforming the ipad3 that is running mp4@250mhz, by about 12%

http://glbenchmark.com/phonedetails.jsp?D=Apple+iPhone+5&benchmark=glpro25
 
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If the gl2.5 results in the following tables are to be believed:-

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410034,00.asp

Iphone5 is getting slight better offscreen 1080p results that the ipad3(27 v 25.2). Given that reports todate suggest that the A6 doesn't have as wide a memory interface as the A5X, does it suggest that they are clocking @ a good bit over 300mhz, maybe 325mhz or is the custom arm processors helping in the benchmarks in some way ?
It might be more a matter of effective memory bandwidth than theoretical memory bandwidth. From Anand's Geekbench analysis of the original leaked results, the A6 gets greater than 70% bandwidth efficiency whereas the A5 in the iPhone 4S is under 50%. If the A5X has the same <50% efficiency as the A5, then the iPhone 5 and 2012 iPad would have very similar realizable memory bandwidth. If the SGX543MP4 in the 2012 iPad is bottlenecked by memory bandwidth preventing it from pulling ahead of the SGX543MP3 perhaps the stronger CPU in the iPhone 5 is what puts it over the top.
 
It might be more a matter of effective memory bandwidth than theoretical memory bandwidth. From Anand's Geekbench analysis of the original leaked results, the A6 gets greater than 70% bandwidth efficiency whereas the A5 in the iPhone 4S is under 50%. If the A5X has the same <50% efficiency as the A5, then the iPhone 5 and 2012 iPad would have very similar realizable memory bandwidth. If the SGX543MP4 in the 2012 iPad is bottlenecked by memory bandwidth preventing it from pulling ahead of the SGX543MP3 perhaps the stronger CPU in the iPhone 5 is what puts it over the top.

These effective memory bandwidth improvements are likely more down to the CPU's ability to utilize bandwidth, not the GPU's. In particular, better prefetching, faster caches, wider OoO, and more outstanding L2 mi sses will contribute to that, along with improved memory latency. GPUs, on the other hand, have a much easier time utilizing bandwidth - the scene data and binning information is mostly linear accesses that are easy to prefetch and buffer, and so is the render target write-out for a tiler. The only random accesses are texture cache misses and those can be easily hidden by switching to other threads.

Also, I'm pretty sure that A5X's CPU doesn't have access to all four channels anyway, so it's not a fair comparison.

So I don't think the GPU is benefiting from any memory bandwidth score advantages that A6 shows. The simple answer is that the GPU didn't need all that bandwidth for Egypt offscreen to begin with, since it runs nowhere close to the iPad 3's full resolution. That bandwidth was probably added for scenarios with really low ALU:ROP ratios that need the full resolution, like the standard 2D GUI stuff.
 
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6324/the-iphone-5-performance-preview

Preliminary benchmarks for the iPhone 5 are up. Clock speeds apparently vary between 800Mhz and 1.2GHz. Geekbench apparently only samples clock speed on launch so you need to peg the cores with some other task before launching Geekbench to see 1.2GHz. I guess the question is whether that 1.2GHz is sustainable, in which case the A6 is quite as strong clock-for-clock, or if it drops back down like a Turbo mechanism.

Anand's claiming both the iPhone 4S and iPad 3 run their SGX543MP2/4 at 200MHz and that the iPhone 5's SGX543MP3 is clocked to match the iPad 3's GPU performance with only memory bandwidth differentiating the two. Interestingly, the Adreno 320 in the LG Optimus G is a good match for the iPhone 5 in Egypt HD.

EDIT: Seeing the SGX543MP2 performs slower in the iPhone 4S than the iPad 2, I think Anand is generalizing too much by assuming the A5 has a set GPU clock speed of 200MHz. The GPU performance of the iPhone 4S is 80% of the iPad 2 so it makes sense that the SGX543MP2 is clocked at 200MHz in the iPhone 4S and 250Mhz in the iPad 2. Since Apple said 2012 iPad 3 GPU performance is 2x that of the iPad 2, it follows that the SGX543MP4 in the A5X is clocked at 250MHz and not 200Mhz as Anand reports
 
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/6324/the-iphone-5-performance-preview


EDIT: Seeing the SGX543MP2 performs slower in the iPhone 4S than the iPad 2, I think Anand is generalizing too much by assuming the A5 has a set GPU clock speed of 200MHz. The GPU performance of the iPhone 4S is 80% of the iPad 2 so it makes sense that the SGX543MP2 is clocked at 200MHz in the iPhone 4S and 250Mhz in the iPad 2. Since Apple said 2012 iPad 3 GPU performance is 2x that of the iPad 2, it follows that the SGX543MP4 in the A5X is clocked at 250MHz and not 200Mhz as Anand reports

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's 250mhz for ipad2/3. Ipad2 has 25% more pixels than iphone4s, so they clock the A5 gpu 25% higher so as performance across iphone4s and ipad2 would be identical onscreen.

Also he definitively states gflops for iphone5 gpu, without ever stating a clock for it. Surely you can't do one without the other. It still looks like >300mhz to me
 
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Die shot of the new A6.
it is assumed to show 2 cores and 3 GPU blocks.

Interestingly enough, what may not be obvious at first glance is that the die size of A6 (iphone 5) SoC actually increased relative to A5 (iphone 4s, ipad 2) SoC, normalized for differences in fabrication process. In fact, the normalized die size of A6 (iphone 5) SoC appears to be virtually identical to that of A5X (ipad 3) SoC!

When moving from A5 (iphone 4s, ipad 2) SoC to A5X (ipad 3) SoC, Apple increased die size area by ~ 34%, where nearly all of the SoC die size increase went towards the GPU. When moving from A5 (iphone 4s, ipad 2) SoC to A6 (iphone 5) SoC, Apple increased die size by ~ 36% (normalized for differences in fabrication process), where approximately half of the SoC die size increase went towards the GPU and half went towards the CPU.

So as I mentioned before, the use of a smaller fabrication process was of extreme importance in shaping the end result for iphone 5. Due to the dramatic increase in transistor density when moving from 45nm LP fabrication process to 32nm LP fabrication process, Apple was able to increase normalized GPU die size by ~ 50%, and was able to increase normalized CPU die size by ~ 50%, relative to iphone 4s. Due to the very large reduction in leakage current when moving from 45nm LP fabrication process to 32nm LP fabrication process, Apple was also able to increase GPU operating frequency by ~ 33%, and was able to increase CPU operating frequency by ~ 50%, without increasing power consumption relative to iphone 4s. So the combination of increasing GPU/CPU normalized die sizes by ~ 50%, and increasing GPU/CPU operating frequencies by ~ 33-50% goes a long way in explaining the performance differences between iphone 5 and iphone 4s.

When comparing a [1.5GHz] dual-core Krait SoC vs. a [1.2GHz] dual-core A6 SoC, the overall CPU performance score is actually pretty similar in Geekbench, within ~ 5% of each other. At these operating frequencies, the dual-core Krait SoC has ~ 10% advantage in floating point performance, while the dual-core A6 SoC has ~ 15% advantage in memory performance, and ~ 20% advantage in integer performance. Of course A6 does have a large advantage in memory bandwidth performance, but that is not weighted as high as floating point, integer, and memory performance in Geekbench.

When comparing a dual-core Krait SoC with Adreno 320 GPU vs. a dual-core A6 SoC with SGX543MP3 GPU, the overall GPU performance is also pretty similar in GLBenchmark 2.5.

It will be interesting to see how power consumption compares between dual-core Krait SoC's (with Jellybean and Windows 8 operating systems) vs. dual-core A6 SoC (with iOS operating system). As long as the power consumption of dual-core Krait SoC's with Adreno 320 GPU is reasonably competitive to the A6 SoC, then these two SoC's will more-or-less have CPU and GPU performance parity and performance per watt parity.
 
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The above of course assumes there are no other improvements in the soc that would affect gpu benchmarks.

Most of the iphone 4s and ipad 3 benchmarks out there do not reflect the latest software updates (including iOS 6 operating system), so that could have some influence on the comparison results.

Moving forward, I expect ipad 4 (~ March 2013) to have a thinner and lighter chassis and a bit lower power consumption relative to ipad 3. Since it is quite probable that Apple will dramatically increase GPU performance with ipad 4 (relative to ipad 3), they may decide to use an A6-based dual-core CPU running at slightly higher operating frequencies (relative to iphone 5) rather than move to a quad-core CPU.

I also expect iphone 6 (~ September 2013) to have a thicker and heavier chassis and a bit higher power consumption relative to iphone 5, with another dramatic increase in GPU performance but a relatively small increase in CPU performance.
 
Moving forward, I expect ipad 4 (~ March 2013) to have a thinner and lighter chassis and a bit lower power consumption relative to ipad 3. Since it is quite probable that Apple will dramatically increase GPU performance with ipad 4 (relative to ipad 3), they may decide to use an A6-based dual-core CPU running at slightly higher operating frequencies (relative to iphone 5) rather than move to a quad-core CPU.
It does make you wonder what will happen with the iPad 4. The A6 is very much a transitional SoC being the first run of their own next-gen custom CPU while keeping the existing SGX543MP and works out very well relative to the competition in this Q3 2012 release window. Will Apple just go with an A6X for the iPad 4, say higher clocked dual core A6 CPUs, SGX543MP6 and moving back to a 128-bit memory interface? The raw performance should be competitive, but launching in Q1 2013 and having to go a year without OpenGL ES 3.0 support seems a little bit daunting. Apple may not be all about the specs/features, but they seem keen on maintaining control in the tablet market and ticking as many feature boxes as possible certainly helps. On the other hand, introducing an A7 with Rogue just 6 months after releasing the A6 seems very aggressive considering it took Apple 1.5 years to get from A5 to A6.

I also expect iphone 6 (~ September 2013) to have a thicker and heavier chassis and a bit higher power consumption relative to iphone 5, with another dramatic increase in GPU performance but a relatively small increase in CPU performance.
Well if history is a guide, the Sept 2013 iPhone is most likely to be an iPhone 5S keeping the same chassis and focusing on internal improvements notably a bump in the cameras and SoC. Even if Rogue doesn't make it for the iPad 4, it'd certainly make it for the iPhone 5S. Unless Apple's going to starting designing custom GPUs as well? :oops: How power efficient is Rogue compared to Series 5XT, ie. does the power consumption have to go up relative to the iPhone 5? A process shrink would be useful here: Samsung 28nm or a switch to TSMC 28nm? Samsung reports the same design rules between their 32nm and 28nm process allowing for a seamless transition so it would be a safer bet for an A7 in the iPhone 5S. If Apple wants to test out TSMC, I could see them doing it by taking the by then well-known A6 and shrinking it on TSMC's 28nm process and using it on the lower volume 6th generation iPod Touch.
 
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