Next-Gen iPhone & iPhone Nano Speculation

Rys said:
So basically we can expect all TouchID devices to support it from here on in, since they have the hardware crypto needed. It's likely even iPad will get that technology in the next generation. I'll split the Apple Pay chat out into a separate thread, since it's completely distinct from the graphics side of things
Click to expand...
(I didn't see a new thread, so continuing here.)

I'm surprised that they're using BLE for this. My experience with Bluetooth and BLE is one of painful discovery and/or pairing. Not suitable at all for the kind of instant communication that's needed for payment process that Apple showed in its video. It wouldn't surprise me if BLE does work for Apple Pay, but not as smooth as with NFC. At that point, it becomes more of a checkmark feature that won't be used much.
 
apparently Apple are gonna charge an extra 15c from every $100 spent with applePay on top of whatever surcharge the banks add.
Ppl would lap it up though, after all 'its only 0.15%' :)
 
zed said:
apparently Apple are gonna charge an extra 15c from every $100 spent with applePay on top of whatever surcharge the banks add. Ppl would lap it up though, after all 'its only 0.15%' :)
Click to expand...
Do I care how much MasterCard charges my store to use my card?
Do I care how much Apple Pay will charge whatever party it deal with?

As long as I don't get charged this extra 0.15%, why should I suddenly care?
 
silent_guy said:
Since the introduction of Apple Pay, I've been trying to understand if it is any different than Google Wallet and other NFC payments, or just a UI layer (fingerprint reader) on top of what was already there.
This article finally describes in more depth what's going on:
http://www.macworld.com/article/260...mobile-payment-system-youll-actually-use.html

With the security and privacy benefits behind it, I'm starting to think that if enough stores to support it, I may actually develop the habit of using it.
Click to expand...

That article is seriously misguided about the privacy bits.

There is no more privacy that using your current cards. The actual card number is hashed to a different number, but the new number is on a per device and per card basis. And it doesn't change across merchants or with time. If those numbers get stolen, as they will be, this article does not say anything about the usability of those numbers on different merchants. So the security is unclear.

IE, the banks, the retailers and the creeps track you just like they were tracking you before.
 
zed said:
apparently Apple are gonna charge an extra 15c from every $100 spent with applePay on top of whatever surcharge the banks add.
Ppl would lap it up though, after all 'its only 0.15%' :)
Click to expand...
So you're complaining that Apple is charging a lower rate than other electronic credit card services? Touch ID allowed Apple to negotiable the 0.15% "card-present" rate whereas other electronic credit card services charge an even higher "card not present" rate.

rpg.314 said:
That article is seriously misguided about the privacy bits.

There is no more privacy that using your current cards. The actual card number is hashed to a different number, but the new number is on a per device and per card basis. And it doesn't change across merchants or with time. If those numbers get stolen, as they will be, this article does not say anything about the usability of those numbers on different merchants. So the security is unclear.

IE, the banks, the retailers and the creeps track you just like they were tracking you before.
Click to expand...
The article did mention the token can be per merchant.

I think Apple's privacy angle is that they don't track you, so you may not be gaining more privacy over what happens now, but you don't lose any privacy unlike other electronic credit card services which do track you on top of the banks, retailers, and other existing parties.
 
ltcommander.data said:
The article did mention the token can be per merchant.
Click to expand...
It can be, but won't be with apple pay.

I think Apple's privacy angle is that they don't track you, so you may not be gaining more privacy over what happens now, but you don't lose any privacy unlike other electronic credit card services which do track you on top of the banks, retailers, and other existing parties.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that's not the first implication one gets from it. I had to read it twice very carefully to parse out no extra privacy bit.
 
wco81 said:
Supposedly NFC is the weak link in the chain. NFC is not invulnerable to hacks?
Click to expand...

Ha ha.

If they can steal your credit card numbers they can steal your apple pay tokens. If they have them, they can use them since the tokens are just another card number and because the tokens do not change with time or merchant.

No wonder Apple got so much buy in from the retailers and the banks. Their creepy behavior can continue unimpeded.
 
rpg.314 said:
If they can steal your credit card numbers they can steal your apple pay tokens. If they have them, they can use them since the tokens are just another card number and because the tokens do not change with time or merchant.

No wonder Apple got so much buy in from the retailers and the banks. Their creepy behavior can continue unimpeded.
Click to expand...
The question is whether or not it's better/safer than existing NFC implementations and existing credit card implementations. Not whether or not credit cards are inherently enablers for creepy behavior.
 
rpg.314 said:
If they can steal your credit card numbers they can steal your apple pay tokens. If they have them, they can use them since the tokens are just another card number and because the tokens do not change with time or merchant.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that's correct? Because it does not jive with Apple's presentation. IIRC they claimed one-time use tokens, and basically invulnerable against anyone snooping said token since it is one-use, and consumed on use. You would not be able to use it a second time, so it'd be worthless for anyone intercepting it.

So either you've got your infos wrong, or Apple lied in their presentation. Or I hallucinated while watching it. <--This is also a possibility... ;)
 
silent_guy said:
Do I care how much MasterCard charges my store to use my card?
Do I care how much Apple Pay will charge whatever party it deal with?
As long as I don't get charged this extra 0.15%, why should I suddenly care?
Click to expand...
Um Because you will pay,
Similar things happen already with other payment methods, stores increase the price of all goods to compensate for ppl paying with creditcards (OK some stores will charge ppl that pay by credit card an extra 2% but they are in the minority)

So you're complaining that Apple is charging a lower rate than other electronic credit card services?
Click to expand...
Its not lower, googles similar service charges nothing

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7118-apple-pay-vs-google-wallet.html
 
wco81 said:
Or maybe they can derive fake tokens after intercepting a few.
Click to expand...

If so, then it's not a NFC problem, but a security problem. Tokenization is done by using a private key (either shared with the bank, or public/private pair). Unless the private key is exposed (which, according to Apple, is stored in the "secure enclave" which also stores the fingerprint data, and not even the kernel is able to read that), it should be impossible to make fake tokens.
 
Well, who the heck expected Apple's "Apple PAY" service to be FREE? Please...! :LOL: (Talk about Apple tax, though... This makes it REAL! Heh.)

Still. .15% is not much to scream about. You buy something for a hundred bucks, Apple taxes you for fifteen cents. The sky is decidedly NOT falling. However, you might not want to pay your $2Bn yacht via your iphone 6 if the extra surcharge grates on you, although if you could afford a yacht like that you probably wouldn't notice the appletax anyway. Just fueling the damn thing up would cost you several thousand times more.
 
zed said:
Um Because you will pay, Similar things happen already with other payment methods, stores increase the price of all goods to compensate for ppl paying with creditcards (OK some stores will charge ppl that pay by credit card an extra 2% but they are in the minority)
Click to expand...
A $2.99 latte will increase by $0.04 if every single customer is going to pay with Apple Pay. Watch. Me. Care. ;)
 
0.15% is on the order of what stores, physical and online, already pay for direct debit transactions (more for smaller transactions, less for large ones). Credit cards are much more.

The cost will be absorbed by the store. They will save money because payment is likely to be faster.

Cheers
 
That rumored 0.15% cut is not levied on the merchants, users or developers. It comes out of the issuer banks' share. They are willing to share their interchange fee with Apple because they see Apple Pay increase the revenue further.
 
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