New Stuff about PS3!

[Shifty Geezer]

Pete Hines: "Our games tend to push the limits of technology pretty hard, so it’s much easier to predict performance on a closed box than one with thousands of possible configurations."

Hmmm...push the limits hard eh? That's one way to put it... As for closed box systems it's a given that they're gonna make more of their graphics potential, but looking at Bethesda's track record of console games are they really to be relied upon to make the most of the hardware? An IGN search shows a load of games I've never heard of and the ratings figures for rated games are 9.4, 7.5, 3.1 and 1.9. By accounts the XB version of MW had some performance issues too (though I never played it so can't compare it to PC). I don't for one minute expect a PR guy (or anyone in a company) NOT to say 'we push the hardware hard.'

I don't doubt, as I've already said, that the XB360 may well have the best graphics. I don't think Oblivion was ever conceived and designed for XB360 though and ported to PC. And I don't think graphics alone makes for the ultimate experience of a game.

I was never a big morrowind fan so I can't really comment on it's control mechanisms. But regardless, the argument that it's a PC game first console second is bunk.

I agree, which is why I never said it was a PC game first, console second. I said and stand by the view that it was developed with both PCs and consoles in mind at the same time, and neither version is a port of the other. The argument that it was a console game first, PC second is bunk

EDIT : So Bethesda would recommend the console varient of their products over the PC variety? How's about putting that to the vote? Has anyone here played both the XB and PC versions of Morrowind, and if so, which would you choose?

 

[TrungGap]

Scooby people aren't going to respect you if you say things like this. The Dreamcast was always a real competitor. There are people to this day that agrue that the Dreamcast could do this and that better than the PS2. Till this day people say that Dreamcast games in 2000 were better than PS2 games in that same year. What are you talking about.

LOL I'm a huge Dreamcast fan. I got three systems, but sadly all three are now dysfunctional. The average Dreamcast game is better (graphically) than average PS2 game. However, when comparing AAA class games (for the during of its life span), this is where Dreamcast falls short. And it's not due to technically limitation of the system, it's in the conceptual art design and game design. However, I agree with your point in that many DC games from the earlier years are way better than PS2. Even launch title such as Soul Calibur was better than Tekken TT (and 4). There were just too many reason why DC games was better...

I agree with you that the x360 is a bigger opponent to the PS3 than the Dreamcast was to the PS2, but what does that hold? Nothing! All that means is that the x360 will not be thrown off to the wilderness after a couple years. Not anything that I want to be compared to. You know what I mean?

DC failed not because of the consolelimitations. DC failed because Sega was already in the hole from the Saturn. Now, here we have x360...in the similar situation as DC and PS2. x360 will release earlier...and the PS3 hyped up to have more power. Pretty much like DC vs PS2. The question is how much of the PS3's power will be realized initially or like PS2 will be realized later on. However, MS is not like Sega. MS has deep pocket.

So whether MS is going to throw in more money to keep its console gaming dept afloat is going to interesting, considering how much money they've lost on xb1. Another point is $ony isn't well off as it was with PS2 launch. So maybe the free ride of cheap console gaming is over...They're going to find innovative way to make money out of u$ ie xLive like service (and microtransactions), MMO, and accessories. Can anyone think of other ways they're going to nickle and dime us to death?

 

[Moegames]

Im sorry but comparing the 360 to the DC is off the wall...no way are the two situations even close. The 360 has a hell of alot more 3rd party support..heck Madden wasnt even on the DC. Sega and MS are two COMPLETELY diffrent company's ..i can even imagine how anyone could try and compare the DC vs 360 launch. Its just not comparable

 

[Arty]

Im sorry but comparing the 360 to the DC is off the wall...no way are the two situations even close. The 360 has a hell of alot more 3rd party support..heck Madden wasnt even on the DC. Sega and MS are two COMPLETELY diffrent company's ..i can even imagine how anyone could try and compare the DC vs 360 launch. Its just not comparable

Usually I find people who compare Xbox 360 to the Dreamcast are either anti Microsoft or pro Sony or pro Nintendo.

 

[dukmahsik]

LOL I'm a huge Dreamcast fan. I got three systems, but sadly all three are now dysfunctional. The average Dreamcast game is better (graphically) than average PS2 game. However, when comparing AAA class games (for the during of its life span), this is where Dreamcast falls short. And it's not due to technically limitation of the system, it's in the conceptual art design and game design. However, I agree with your point in that many DC games from the earlier years are way better than PS2. Even launch title such as Soul Calibur was better than Tekken TT (and 4). There were just too many reason why DC games was better...



DC failed not because of the consolelimitations. DC failed because Sega was already in the hole from the Saturn. Now, here we have x360...in the similar situation as DC and PS2. x360 will release earlier...and the PS3 hyped up to have more power. Pretty much like DC vs PS2. The question is how much of the PS3's power will be realized initially or like PS2 will be realized later on. However, MS is not like Sega. MS has deep pocket.

So whether MS is going to throw in more money to keep its console gaming dept afloat is going to interesting, considering how much money they've lost on xb1. Another point is $ony isn't well off as it was with PS2 launch. So maybe the free ride of cheap console gaming is over...They're going to find innovative way to make money out of u$ ie xLive like service (and microtransactions), MMO, and accessories. Can anyone think of other ways they're going to nickle and dime us to death?

easy, don't buy it. nuff said.

 

[seismologist]

And you're completely disproved by them. PR guy or not, the quote came from Bethesda and it reflects their position better than anything else we have. That they generally suggest the console version over the PC version is not a point in your favor.

How was I disproved? I'm not the one claiming that the game was designed for the Xbox 360 and ported to PC. We still haven't seen any proof of it. By all logical conclusions, Oblivion is running on an enhanced ES3 engine, which was designed for the PC.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Here's what you said: "Pitting a high end PC vs. X360 in a game designed for the PC? yep I'll take that wager. "

The game was not designed for the PC, the MAKERS of the game have said point blank the X360 will be the best version of the game available, and all a PC will be able to do is match it, if you have a multi-thousand dollar gaming PC.

Saying it is a console port is too strong of language, like Shifty said they've been designed for both platforms from the get-go. However, it was definately built for the console from day one, as opposed to morrowind which was a PC port.

The fact the the X360 has the best possible version speaks for itself IMO, the console is the limiting factor, and if it truly was a game designed for PC you would expect the PC version to be superior.

In comparison, Morrowind was a PC game made to go on XBOX, Oblivion was from the very beginning a console game, that's the difference.

So anyways...you still wanna take that bet? If you loose I want a 2 page essay on why people should not troll....

 

[Johnny_Physics]

In comparison, Morrowind was a PC game made to go on XBOX, Oblivion was from the very beginning a console game, that's the difference.

I think you're assuming too much here. I don't think you really mean that it was a console game from the beginning, you're probably just trying to say that the game was intended to be released on the next Xbox from at least early on, if not from the start of the entire development.
But on the other hand, that could be said about the PC version as well, don't you think so?
So it was a console game from the very beginning, and it was a pc game from the very beginning. And 'design', would that be game design or engine design? The Elder Scrolls certainly have strong roots on the PC and it would be easier to call it a PC rpg than it would be to call it a console RPG, right? So this might be a game designed for the PC on a console with an engine that might or might not be a port from one platform to the other, optimized for one platform or perhaps both, or neither, or it could be a cross-platform engine from the very beginning and... we just don't know enough to start claiming things we have no solid information about. You don't know, that other guy don't know, I don't know. Extrapolating information from PR-dudes isn't gonna cut it either.
You two could continue arguing things like this until the sun burns out or the thread gets locked.

So please stop claiming that it was a console game from the very beginning and please stop assuming things that the Bethesda guy didn't say, it really bugs me and it just turns this thread into another annoying thread where two people bicker at each other.
And I think that your whole quibble with that other poster is spun around semantics, from both of you that is, so please stop this.
It's a thread about stupid things that PSM printed about the PS3 after all, why not discuss that instead?

 

[pso]

I think you're assuming too much here. I don't think you really mean that it was a console game from the beginning, you're probably just trying to say that the game was intended to be released on the next Xbox from at least early on, if not from the start of the entire development.
But on the other hand, that could be said about the PC version as well, don't you think so?
So it was a console game from the very beginning, and it was a pc game from the very beginning. And 'design', would that be game design or engine design? The Elder Scrolls certainly have strong roots on the PC and it would be easier to call it a PC rpg than it would be to call it a console RPG, right? So this might be a game designed for the PC on a console with an engine that might or might not be a port from one platform to the other, optimized for one platform or perhaps both, or neither, or it could be a cross-platform engine from the very beginning and... we just don't know enough to start claiming things we have no solid information about. You don't know, that other guy don't know, I don't know. Extrapolating information from PR-dudes isn't gonna cut it either.
You two could continue arguing things like this until the sun burns out or the thread gets locked.

So please stop claiming that it was a console game from the very beginning and please stop assuming things that the Bethesda guy didn't say, it really bugs me and it just turns this thread into another annoying thread where two people bicker at each other.
And I think that your whole quibble with that other poster is spun around semantics, from both of you that is, so please stop this.
It's a thread about stupid things that PSM printed about the PS3 after all, why not discuss that instead?

"Xbox.com: How many team members have been with The Elder Scrolls series since the beginning? How has this development process been different from that of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind®?

Howard: The whole series? Gosh, probably over 100 different people have had their hands in it. We're fortunate that almost everyone who worked on Morrowind is working again on Oblivion, and we've added a lot of great new talent.

In many ways, the development has been similar to Morrowind's, since we basically started from scratch on Oblivion. But this time around, we were making a console game from the very start. We knew from day one that Oblivion would be on the Xbox 360â„¢, while with Morrowind, Xbox development didn't start until we were halfway done. Oblivion's been designed from the ground up to be a next-generation console game in every respect."

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/e32005/devinterviews/20050518-oblivion.htm

End of story.

 

[Johnny_Physics]

End of story.

sigh... I'm torn between opening this post with "oh that really put me into place!" or "not another one..."


I was against derailing threads, and not only that, I was also trying to say that using semantics and fictive arguements as leverage to further derail a thread isn't something we should encourage.
That's my opinion at least, personally I don't want to see that type of behaviour here.
Perhaps you got that impression when you read my post or perhaps I just didn't fine tune my post enough to get that message across, but anyway... why would a quote from Xbox.com make derailing, trolling and tiresome bickering A-OK?

 

[pso]

sigh... I'm torn between opening this post with "oh that really put me into place!" or "not another one..."


I was against derailing threads, and not only that, I was also trying to say that using semantics and fictive arguements as leverage to further derail a thread isn't something we should encourage.
That's my opinion at least, personally I don't want to see that type of behaviour here.
Perhaps you got that impression when you read my post or perhaps I just didn't fine tune my post enough to get that message across, but anyway... why would a quote from Xbox.com make derailing, trolling and tiresome bickering A-OK?

What's with people using the 'sigh' word, lol. Anyways, you claimed scooby was assuming when you said this:

"So please stop claiming that it was a console game from the very beginning"

So I provided a link from another source that said otherwise. That's not trolling or bickering, it's proving a point so this whole Oblivion thing could be squashed, nothing more.

If you think my post was about derailing, trolling, and tiresome bickering, you should look at your reply to scooby. Instead of leaving it alone, you had to derail the thread even more with your reply to scooby by adding your two cents in about his assumptions on Oblivion.

 

[.Melchiah.]

Well actually I don't see that as being so far off. The PS2 cost outrageous amounts when it launched here in Finland, and when I bought mine like a YEAR later, the price had gone down to something like 400 euros.

Bought mine at launch for 2950 FIM = 496 € = 609 $.

 

[Phil]

scooby_dooby:

Mckmass - Dremacast wasn't a real competitor in that it lacked 3rd party support, and ultimately didn't have the game line-up. I never once considered a dreamcast for purchase because it's game line-up was paltry. Heck PS2 didn't even begin to pick up steam until years 2 and 3 when it started getting a decent line-up.

MS is pretty much the polar opposite. They will have no shortage of 3rd party support, no shortage of advertising dollars, they will have a low price-point, this is a much more threatening opponent than dreamcast ever was IMO.

It's funny, I actually recall that competitor (that wasn't a real one in your eyes) to be more of competition than any of the latter consoles that launched a year after the PS2... In fact, I'd actually have to agree with you - there wasn't a single console this current generation that was a real competitor to the PS2. What makes you think that will change?

Polar opposite? They may have more 3d party support than the Dreamcast ever had, but those few EA titles and Xbox established exclusives are hardly to exciting from a PlayStation-consumer's perspective. Then given that the xv360 launch lineup is hardly spectacular either (maybe it is for a Xbox fan), I'm not sure why Sony would need such a good lineup either. As I said already (I haven't seen you reply to this, so I'm going to assume you don't have anything to counter with?): first buyers are fans, hardcore gamers and the early adopters. Xbox360 will sell well, but if you seriously think they'll be already cutting into a big slice of the PlayStation market, I think it's best you re-think a few things. Maybe things will change in the future, maybe Microsoft will have more "PlayStation big hitters" coming to their console exclusively - but for now, I hate to say, but the only thing I see going for the next Xbox is the fact it's the next-generation console and that's about it. There's simply not much there to excite me about it - no PGR, no HALO and no other PC ported game. And all the other multiplatform games coming to the system don't interest me either beyond the fact that they'll be out for all platforms anyway. Now, if Microsoft gets a big SquareEnix title exclusively (and no, a port of FF part 11 won't cut it), then you might be on to something, but until then, I seriously suggest you try to look things more objectively and from a more casual / PlayStation gamer's perspective. If Microsoft wants to expand beyond their Xbox fanbase - they need to think what others want. Not everyone's an Xbox fan and excited about the Xbox franchises as you are.

 

[Johnny_Physics]

What's with people using the 'sigh' word, lol. Anyways, you claimed scooby was assuming when you said this:

"So please stop claiming that it was a console game from the very beginning"

So I provided a link from another source that said otherwise. That's not trolling or bickering, it's proving a point so this whole Oblivion thing could be squashed, nothing more.

Well, two can play the quote-game.

In development since 2002, Oblivion is another leap forward in role-playing with its combination of freeform gameplay and cutting-edge graphics.

So what does that mean, really? If we assume that development began in 2002 and we assume that development means working on the game codewise, can we assume that they didn't even have the alpha-kits for the Xbox 360 back then?
Let's pit that against your quote:

But this time around, we were making a console game from the very start. We knew from day one that Oblivion would be on the Xbox 360â„¢, while with Morrowind, Xbox development didn't start until we were halfway done. Oblivion's been designed from the ground up to be a next-generation console game in every respect."

Hey, there was no Xbox 360 in 2002! Let's argue over semantics for five pages, and then we can assume a lot of things regarding what they could have done with the completely fictional alpha-alpha-alpha Xbox 360 devkit that they started working with no later than 2003!


And now, we mix in a what Scooby posted, the same post I quoted and replied to:

The game was not designed for the PC

Oh it wasn't?
How could he come to that conclusion?
Well, by extrapolating information from his earlier post, where he had a quote from a guy, and then assuming a lot of things and just making stuff up. So, when he's saying "it was a console game from the beginning" he doesn't just mean that it was a game intended to be released on a console from the very beginning, a game that's also developed in parallel with an equally important PC-version, no, he means that it's a console game that also gets the benefit of being released on the pc.

Now you're probably thinking "hey you're assuming things about what he meant!" but I'm really not doing that. "The game was designed for the Xbox 360" and "The game was not designed for the PC" makes it pretty clear what he actually meant.
Anyway, all of that seems a bit strange considering that Bethesda is primarily a pc-centric company and that development started in 2002, right?

Are you with me now? When he's saying "it was a console game from the very beginning" he fills that sentence with a lot of things that the PR-guy didn't say, obviously this is proven by his quote "the game was not designed for the PC" which is an assumption.
I bet I could find a quote where someone from Bethesda says something like "the game was designed from the very beginning to take advantage of the hottest new hardware for the PC", I'm pretty sure I read that in a magazine actually, but would a quote like that let me assume that the game was NOT made for the Xbox 360 as well?
Obviously not, and I think you can agree with me on that.

So when I said "So please stop claiming that it was a console game from the very beginning" what in the world could I have meant with that? I meant that he should stop claiming the things he said, you know, the whole "the game was not designed for the pc, it was designed for the Xbox 360".
It was badly worded, but I thought I made it clear what I meant in the actual text, and honestly, I assumed people would read what I wrote, and what I was replying to, before they started taking stabbs at me.

From my understanding they started development on the PC and developed it as a game for the PC, but with a next-gen console version in mind during this process, and when they got the devkits they started working on the console version of the game in parallel with the pc-version. Therefore the game was designed for a console AND the pc, so no version is just a port or a lousy conversion, they're both equally good/bad.
See, I said it, the sky isn't falling down or anything.


So, shall we just call a truce now and discuss how PSM sucks instead?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Lets see if I can make this REALLY simple for you.

1. anti-xbox trolls claimed the PC version would probably superior,

2. Bethesda stated that reality is quite the opposite.

End of story.

Nothing I've said was based on assumptions, it's my memory from reading many interviews and previews of a game I'm really looking forward to. Something you obviously haven't been doing. Maybe YOU should do a little research before you come in here making accusations about who's assuming what. Everything I've said can be backed up by comments from the Developers and it's you guys who have no clue what you're talking about.

Just because I don't keep quotes on hand, or bookmark URL's to different articles, doesn't make it any less true.

btw: saying it was not designed for PC wasn't meant to be taken literally dude, it's being released on PC after all! I meant it wasn't designed for PC like Morrowind was designed for PC, and it was in direct response to Seismologists comment that the game was "designed for the PC"

 

[seismologist]

"Programming guru and Doom creator John Carmack has even said that Doom 3 can be ported to the Xbox and that "the graphics fidelity on the Xbox version will be the same as the PC version."

You know, people will say alot of things when they're trying to sell you a game. Let's just stop posting quotes and say I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Johnny_Physics]

yeah yeah, I'm sure that you know at least as much about the game and what's going on beneath the surface as the lead programmer and all that jazz..

btw: saying it was not designed for PC wasn't meant to be taken literally dude, it's being released on PC after all! I meant it wasn't designed for PC like Morrowind was designed for PC, and it was in direct response to Seismologists comment that the game was "designed for the PC"

Well, I don't think you should have said "the game wasn't designed for the PC" and "the game was designed for a console" then. It's not hard to read that as "the game wasn't designed for the PC" and "the game was designed for a console".
If you don't mean it, don't say it, do you understand what I'm trying to say here?


But you forget my main point, and that's argueing semantics of things like that. Go back and re-read my first post.
As I said, you and seismologist could drag this out for as long as you two like by using loopholes like that, and that's why it's futile to argue about it.
I mean, Seismologist will probably play the "Oblivion is locked at x frames per second at y resolution and the PC will be able to run it at x*2 frames per second and at y*2 the resolution, hence the PC-version will look superior" card very soon, or something completely irrelevant that will sidetrack you even more, don't you realize that?
And what are you going to do then? Play the 4xAA-for-free card? I mean, come on, the game isn't even far from being released, can't you just wait until then to pass judgement on which version is superior?


I would really like to see the quote where the developers state that the game wasn't designed for the PC but for consoles. It's pretty important that you can back that up without assumptions of your own, and if you can give me a direct quote and not assume that one things means something entirely different then my whole arguement falls.
So, here's your chance to truly and utterly beat me once and for all.

 

[one]

Apparently the MGS4 part in PSM is true.

 

[Mordecaii]

I just wanna add my opinion to the Oblivion thing since the thread seems to have completely been derailed... First, if you paid attention to one of the earlier posters on the subject (I can't remember who at the moment), they said that part of the game being superior was how it controlled, the mods that would be released for it, the fact the PC has a hard drive, the toolkit that comes with the game, etc... Now we know for a fact we can't use a mouse and keyboard on the XB360, so in my opinion that already makes the PC version superior because I hate using a controller to control those types of games. (I realize this is my opinion and thus cannot be applied to everyone, but I also know that others will agree with me). The PC version will come with the construction set so people can make mods and such, which also makes the game better. It can give the game higher replay value and also add things. Again, I suppose if you don't like mods or wouldn't use the construction set you could argue that it didn't make the game better for you, but the fact that the game gives you that option makes it better in that regard.

The developers said that the game would run just as well on a high-end PC as on the XB360, so let me try to explain exactly what that means... The game itself will be the same on both platforms! Ok, let's repeat this... the GAME will be the same. Of course, only people with powerful PC's will be able to take advantage of this, but if they have a good enough PC then it will look the same on both systems. So, if the XB360 loses the advantage of graphics, then the other major differences are the controls and the construction set. The controls are a matter of personal preference, but the fact that the 360 doesn't come with the construction set and therefore won't have all the mods means that it is missing something the PC has and therefore not as good.

By the way, this is assuming the 360 won't come with the construction set (which I think is a pretty safe bet but I won't die of shock if it does come with it).

So I guess my point is, the game should look the same on both systems if you have the PC to handle it (which some of us do). Therefore, the fact that the game will look better on the 360 than it would on a mid-range doesn't mean it's better since by upgrading the hardware on the PC you can automatically make the game equal. Saying the game is better on one system over another is implying that they changed the engine to make it different (in terms of graphics here) than the other. From what they've said so far they it sounds like they haven't.

P.S. The game technology was originally developed on the PC considering the fact they started developing it before X360 was even announced or had any hardware even close to running for it. However, having ported Morrowind to Xbox already they already knew that they wanted the game to come out on a console when they started making the game, which they apparently did not have in mind when they were making Morrowind. So the game is definately being designed for both systems, and the question of which it was initially designed for becomes the proverbial "which came first, the chicken or the egg" type of question. The point is, the game is made with both systems in mind from the outcome, however they started working on the game initially using PC hardware and development resources because that's all they had.

Anyway, enough of my rambling... as for the original post about PSM... I kinda doubt whoever said that is all that credible, and even if they are it could be because their personal preference in terms of hardware leans towards the PS3 and it may not be true for many others or even anyone else. As for the game lineup, I guarantee we'll see it changed a lot over the coming months so anything said now doesn't even interest me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

One! Stop trying to derail the thread! After all we...huh? You mean this ISN'T an Oblivion thread?


Just a small note on this whole console/PC debacle. Designing a game means thinking up what you want in it and how that'll fit in with the hardware. When designing Morrowind, Bethesda had no idea there'd be a console to port it to. The minimum spec is a 500 MHz PC, 1 GB HD space, 32 MB graphics card and 128 mb RAM (Win 98/ME)/256 mb RAM (Win 2k/XP). Recommended Spec's a lot more, and the more PC you have, the better the game. Of note is that the minimum spec runs the game pretty roughly.

Now for the XB port suddenly the specs were different. 64mb total RAM where half was taken up for graphics in the PC version. That meant a lot of techniwues they may have used that gobbled RAM were unusable and they had to rework the engine into the limits of the console.

With Oblivion they knew there was a console coming to run it. At the concept stages of Oblivion the XB360 hardware was unknown so they couldn't design with those hardware limits. But what they could do is make sure whatever systems they use would fit into smaller capacity ram, and not thrash the HD so much, and guess no more than 128 mb's for graphics work. They could design the game with these limits that you'd expect of a console. Then as the hardware became known they could expand the design were possible.

However, it was at least 18 months into development of Oblivion that an idea of the XB360 hardware became known. They were not designing algorithms to use a stream vector unit or working on procedural content creation using MEMEXPORT from the GPU. Designing for console means ensuring you don't structure the PC game outside the scope of something that can be accomodated on a closed box, smaller capacity system, not targetting a specific architecture. It's quite possible in recent months the XB360 development team are making use of some of the hardware's particular talents, but the game as a whole was not conceived with that in mind.

As the Bethesda people explained, when they created Morrowind it was with only an idea of PC architecture, and then they had to squeeze that game into a console. Wheras with Oblivion they have ensured from design time that the game fits into the console as well as the PC, and fits the console's control system as well as the PC's.

One could argue, if they were feeling pedantic, that in essence the PC experience has been retarded as the game must also run on a 512 mb total RAM, no HDD console, and if the game hadn't been targetted for consoles from the outside Bethesda could aimed it at a 512+ mb RAM, 64 mb GPU, 2 gb free HDD and created a more expansive universe as a result, but given what's going into the game I'm not sure anything was left out