therealskywolf
Regular
Shifty Geezer said:
Actually, 4 GB +- of those 20 GB+- wont be able to be used by the user, they will be allways there for the DEVs and such.
New PGR3 update..
- Thread starter EndR
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Actually, 4 GB +- of those 20 GB+- wont be able to be used by the user, they will be allways there for the DEVs and such.
That provides storage for use in game, but what about when you switch game? Say you're playing Oblivion and it's using that space for NPC behaviour records and dead bodies. Now you start playing that GTA type game (forget the name) and it wants to record NPC behaviour. Does it wipe the Oblivion game? Do you have to manage saves to make room, and maybe not play GTAesque until you've finished Oblivion? Or is this only temporary game data a sort of 'SlowRAM' for storing in game stuff, like character states in a city (attitude towards you based on your behaviour). Even if so, this data will need to be saved as a savegame unless all character attitudes are reverted to neutral on next play.
If I remember right, Morrowind saves were several megs in size. Oblivion could reach many time that if they really expand on the amount you and NPCs can do. Though maybe it's okay? At even 50 megs a save that's no worse use of the HDD then existing memory card limitations. If you can export saves to other media it probably won't be a big deal.
If I remember right, Morrowind saves were several megs in size. Oblivion could reach many time that if they really expand on the amount you and NPCs can do. Though maybe it's okay? At even 50 megs a save that's no worse use of the HDD then existing memory card limitations. If you can export saves to other media it probably won't be a big deal.
as Bizarre mentioned, the in-game texture is pre-effects. See their dev diary 03 (i believe) on the lighting model. This is just the basic colormap/diffuse. It is missing index, specular, and bump channels. If you've ever modeled with 3d Studio Max or the like, you know how important these are. In addition to being only 1 of the layers, it is clearly pre-lighting. AFAIK the lighting model in PGR3 is a dynamic/static hybrid, and uses pre-baked ambient diffuse/occlusion light model. Since realistically the position of the sun doesn't change throughout the duration of a single race, it is perfectly valid to use a static lightmap in conjunction with dynamic point sources. In final produc. this texture will look incredible.
MechanizedDeath said:
Ummm, Mech, Im not sure where you got those numbers, but the last time I checked 1x BD-ROM was the same as HD-DVD 36.5Mbps. Its movie playback that is supposedly always at 2x (at least) which is where their 54Mbps comes from. Check outline 1.7 at blu-ray.com.
But staying on topic, I can't wait for PGR3, I really want to get in on those tournaments. If we could only get a wheel at launch...
Page 13 of the official BR Disc Technology paper states Transfer rates of 36 for BD-R and BD-RE, and 54 for BD-ROM. That's under section for Physical characteristics of the format, so 'software' explanations don't cut it.
Maybe BD-ROMs default to higher rotational velocity or some other voodoo, but it's part of the hardware spec.
scooby_dooby
Legend
Shifty Geezer said:
The HD is partitioned so that there is a reserved area for game saves, and there is a reserved area for HD caching for the Dev's. Stock Xbox HD had a C and E parition, system files were on C, game saves were on E, and there was also a hidden partition I assume was for HD caching etc etc.
From my experience with Xbox1 no "cache" files were ever left on the HD between games. In other words, the amount of HD space I have available does not change after I play a game, it may change DURING the game as I have no wy of knowing.
It is basically slow ram, the end result was that the xbox had noticeably lower load times on almost all cross platform games. I guess this is mostly due the HD cache as they both had 2x DVD drives.
It's ideal for a game like oblivion because they can pre-load large areas and store them in "slow-ram" this is probably even more important if the files need to be decompressed first.
As far as NPC attidues go, I would assume they are based on events, and your statistics, all that info will be in the gamesave. My guess is they will just use some big fat gamesave file. Like kotor, the game saves were huge, too big for a memory card.
scooby_dooby
Legend
damn, my bad!
ok, i have x, y and z, z has gta3.img at 653MB, this must be san andreas.
y has a "databox" folder and it contains about 240mb, x is empty. i wish i still had a copy of morrowind, i'd fire it up just to see what kinda filesize wee're talkin.
ok, i have x, y and z, z has gta3.img at 653MB, this must be san andreas.
y has a "databox" folder and it contains about 240mb, x is empty. i wish i still had a copy of morrowind, i'd fire it up just to see what kinda filesize wee're talkin.
The current Xbox has room dedicated for gaming, the space isn't available for things like multimedia and other downloads, this is common knowledge.
As far as keeping it RAM
The amount of dynamic data needed for games like Morrowind(and oblivion)is far to large to be kept in system RAM(even with 256MB available), the data is streamed from the HD premtivly as it's needed, I would imagin based on geography and NPG within predefined distances.
To constantly load and flush this information would be extremely ineffecient. Especially with system bandwidth at a premium these days.
The devs said themselves that Morrowind would not have been possible on Xbox without the HD.
Do I think the PS3 si going to e more powerful than 360, sure it's comming out 6-12 monthes later of course it will.
but on the flip side I think not including a HD as standard in the PS3 is a bad idea and Microsoft is still the only player with a real online plan.
Well there is that too. Though Oblivion can't work without an HDD, how much of that is because the hardware can't cope, and how much is because the developers can't? 
Though I agree in principle, and would love to have seen an HDD as standard on PS3, and a 20 gig HDD is far better value than 20 gigs of flash storage, I do think there's plenty of scope for large flashmem to cover that area in future. We're up to 2-4 GB flash mem and keydrive storage. In a couple of years that'll be at mainstream prices. A couple of gigs of MemStick should work fine for someting like Oblivion and still have room for more 'economically' saved games. Of course this is an optional extra and may never materialise, but in the life of PS3 this will be an option where this gen it wasn't.
Though I agree in principle, and would love to have seen an HDD as standard on PS3, and a 20 gig HDD is far better value than 20 gigs of flash storage, I do think there's plenty of scope for large flashmem to cover that area in future. We're up to 2-4 GB flash mem and keydrive storage. In a couple of years that'll be at mainstream prices. A couple of gigs of MemStick should work fine for someting like Oblivion and still have room for more 'economically' saved games. Of course this is an optional extra and may never materialise, but in the life of PS3 this will be an option where this gen it wasn't.
randycat99
Veteran
Shifty Geezer said:
To cite an example and augment to your point, I think the Bauldur's Gate and Champions of Norrath series serve as interesting examples of how a lot of "history" can be maintained in a game, stored in a game save, and not require the brute resources of a HD. It may not be as extensive as the most extensive example you can think of, but it does attempt to uphold the theme commendably. Dead enemies remain dead where you killed them for the entirety of the level and sometimes the entire game. Structures/objects that have been destroyed also remain consistent (though are less pervasive, perhaps). Granted, there are instances where a level is cleared and respawned, but this comes from a decision of how the storyline goes, not what is/isn't possible with the game design.
The game saves are larger, but still remain in suitable for typical memory card capacities. Upon examination of these files, when used with game file compressor, even then these larger files contain quite a bit of bloat. Compressed size often ends up 20% (and sometimes even less) of the original file (mind you, that means 80% or more savings, not 20). That's a lot of saved space if a developer bothers to expoit it in the way game saves are implemented. Out of all gamesaves I've compressed, never was the compressed size no better than the original (suggesting the developer did a good job with a thrifty gamesave routine). A great deal of bloat always exists, even with the relatively tiny gamesaves (which you wouldn't normally worry about, anyway).
So what was all this to mean? HD's are not necessarily as crucial as they are made out to be for games that need to "remember" their state. A lot of history can be saved, and quite a bit more information can be stored in a simple flashcard than most are aware of (and there is online storage that has yet to be explored). I fully admit that one could point out certain games that could really use HD-level storage, but at the same time, many games could surely be implemented w/o, while still featuring a considerable degree of "history preservation". Most of all, it's not so easy to just point out games that use the HD and then conclude that it could not run any other way w/o one. One simply cannot make conclusions like that w/o knowing what and how information is getting stored, beyond the simple acknowledgement that, "yeah, this game uses the HD to store levels and stuff".
Hehe. Whenever I need to consider what's technically possible this gen I turn to SnowBlind and BG/CON. That was certainly one example I was thinking of with bodies lying around. Bodies can be recorded in a few bytes (Creture type, death pose. Position. Most critters had only 1 or 2 death poses). I think a population of a town like Getaway could be kept quite low on the old stroage requirements. A current state and objective. I guyess it depends on the how the AI is handled. It'd be pretty easy to come with super-complicated structures to record every possible thing, but between levels that woudln't be necessary. Like if a random guy in a yellow T-shirt is heading to the National Gallery, jumps in a cab, and then you save, if it doesn't record where he's going in the save and when you reload he ends up visiting the Science Museum instead, that's not really gonna be a problem.
When it comes to vast interactive worlds an HDD or other large storage might (or even will surely) become necessary. I guess we're all hoping for game worlds where you can interact with people realistically and do all the fun and stupid things you can't really do in real life without finding yourself in a white, padded 'hotel' room. Games where you can run around splatting people wtih custard pies, and that affects how they feel towards you, and they communicate with others, so that splatting a dozen plebs a day ends up turning an entire city against you because of word of mouth and newspaper reports etc. Is that possible next-gen? If so, I imagine huge amounts of storage will be needed.
Same with destructible environments. Killzone 3 will be pretty funny if it looks gorgeous, plays fanastic, allows you to blow holes in buildings, and then when you reload the world is patched back together again How to record modifications to scenery, and rubble placement...
The advantage of the inbuilt HDD in XB360 means scope for devs is there from the outset. I guess that's the key reason Bethseda are dropping PS3 as they can't see how to manage pervasive worlds without a large HDD, and maybe Oblivion's that big that there's really no other solution (we hope!). But I look at the situation and feel that the limiting factor for how much recordable changes of a game world can be implemented to be storage, not processing power, and in the vast majority of games it won't matter between platforms. I guess this'll be a noticeable difference between the types of games that appear on the platforms, with western RPGs prominant on XB360?
When it comes to vast interactive worlds an HDD or other large storage might (or even will surely) become necessary. I guess we're all hoping for game worlds where you can interact with people realistically and do all the fun and stupid things you can't really do in real life without finding yourself in a white, padded 'hotel' room. Games where you can run around splatting people wtih custard pies, and that affects how they feel towards you, and they communicate with others, so that splatting a dozen plebs a day ends up turning an entire city against you because of word of mouth and newspaper reports etc. Is that possible next-gen? If so, I imagine huge amounts of storage will be needed.
Same with destructible environments. Killzone 3 will be pretty funny if it looks gorgeous, plays fanastic, allows you to blow holes in buildings, and then when you reload the world is patched back together again
How to record modifications to scenery, and rubble placement...The advantage of the inbuilt HDD in XB360 means scope for devs is there from the outset. I guess that's the key reason Bethseda are dropping PS3 as they can't see how to manage pervasive worlds without a large HDD, and maybe Oblivion's that big that there's really no other solution (we hope!). But I look at the situation and feel that the limiting factor for how much recordable changes of a game world can be implemented to be storage, not processing power, and in the vast majority of games it won't matter between platforms. I guess this'll be a noticeable difference between the types of games that appear on the platforms, with western RPGs prominant on XB360?
Did you guys play Morrowind? How can you compare that to BG?
Oblivion dev said every character has it own set of goals and likes dislikes Ect ect ect(all kinds of crazy stuff never done b4) they do things like upgrade their own property and there attitude towards and things they say\do vary greatly on who you are and your past actions with them and those they know.
but lets forget the Elder scrolls series for a minute and go onto to talk about MMO games. These games just are not possible without a HD add on period the exact same reason your needed one to play FFOL on PS2. Don't you think Square(Top notch PS developers)would have avoided using the hard drive if they didn't have to?
I mean these guys hired agraculturists so they could design the world realisticly by sticking with the type's of plants that grown on slopes in comparison to the sun, the plants around them and their overall environment.
I mean when this game is released, it will be the closest we have ever been as far as how deap and realistic the environment and NPC will be.
So I mean REALLY no offence to anyone here I lurked these forums for 3 years before I ever even signed up, but I'll take the word of the devs and the example I gave of past experiece with add on devices and games that go along with them.
Sorry it just really irks me that Sony isn't making at least like a 5-10 gig HD standard it just seems really short sighted in comparison to rest of their rowrad thinking hardware decisions with the PS3.
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