New dynamic branching demo

[Leto]

Lol Humus is getting with the flamethrower for this thing, too bad

 

[KimB]

Lol Humus is getting with the flamethrower for this thing, too bad

Well, he was kinda asking for it with the statement he posted on his website, no matter how joking he may have been when he wrote it.

 

[Proforma]

16 pipelines

You don't "add" 16 pipelines at the drop of a hat. It takes 6 months from design layout to actual chip production these days - the decision to make R420 capable of 16 pipelines was taken in late 2003, not when people were learning about NV40.

You don't think ATI started hearing things about Nvidia's
chips in late 2003?

Seems like ATI followed Nvidia to me and I am not an
Nvidia fanboy here, its pretty simple to see. I remembered
that I started hearing about 16 pipelines from Nvidia sometime
in 2003.

 

[Pete]

Re: It is, what it is.

So humus makes a hack to get around one of the features of
SM 3.0, well thats great and all, but its just a hack thats not
a really good substitute for the real thing.

I was under the impression that real-time 3D gaming in general was a collection of hacks that substituted for the "real thing."

It is what it is guys. I mean come on, ATI added 16-pipelines at the last minute when they found out Nvidia had put 16 pipelines in their product[....]

So, yes. In my mind, ATI f*cked up this generation.

If you're as objective as you say you are, you'd probably reconsider those statements.

 

[BRiT]

Re: It is, what it is.

So humus makes a hack to get around one of the features of SM 3.0, well thats great and all, but its just a hack thats not a really good substitute for the real thing.

Word of warning, you should be sitting down when reading the next few sentences.

PC Graphics is the art of applying hacks. The power doesn't exist to do everything properly.

Breathe. Take it in. Breathe. Accept it. Breathe. Embrace it. Breathe. That's reality. Breathe. Get over it. Breathe

 

[jvd]

Humus is this something that can be added into the complier (hlsl or whatever the correct name is ) so that the radeons can benefit ?

 

[ZenThought]

humus

I had lots of respect for HUMUS until this latest episode.

first of all his immaturity in flaming NVDA rather than pointing out
yould could do SM3 emulation with SM2.

seconds. it is hack (althought it's good hack I admit it) and is
no replacement for real thing.

So I gather ATI will never implement SM3.0 since it's useless?

 

[jvd]

So I gather ATI will never implement SM3.0 since it's useless?

when did anyone say sm3.0 is useless .

They are just saying there are other ways equaly good that doesn't require sm3.0 for some things

 

[g__day]

Can someone please clarify two things, does this show :

1) Many / some / or only a rare few of SM 3.0 techniques can be readily converted to SM 2.0 techiques?

2) Its much faster (in at least some of these techiques) for NVidia to run the equivalent SM 2.0 rather than the SM 3.0 code?

Many thanks!

 

[Pete]

Re: 16 pipelines

Seems like ATI followed Nvidia to me and I am not an
Nvidia <bleep> here, its pretty simple to see. I remembered
that I started hearing about 16 pipelines from Nvidia sometime
in 2003.

nV themselves admitted they followed ATi's lead with the NV40 by supplying more, similar quads (thus the 12-pipe 6800 and 16-pipe GT/U from the same core).

I'm not sure why you're so sure ATi followed nV rather than vice-versa? Is it because nV launched the 6800U first? Does the fact that ATi had X800s in customers' hands first change your mind at all?

BRiT, unless you're the one pausing in between recommendations, you're missing an "e" at the end of each breath.

 

[BRiT]

Re: 16 pipelines

BRiT, unless you're the one pausing in between recommendations, you're missing an "e" at the end of each breath.

Need more caffiene...

 

[Proforma]

Re: It is, what it is.

I am not an Nvidiot. I am a person who has tried both cards
from both ATI and Nvidia.

Aparrently, there are people on here who are biased towards
ATI and think that SM 3.0 is useless and basically a feature for
Nvidia and thats not true.

So humus makes a hack to get around one of the features of
SM 3.0, well thats great and all, but its just a hack thats not
a really good substitute for the real thing.

When I program for something, I don't want to use hacks because
there could always be problems down the road.

This hack for good or bad seems to me a trick to make up for
the fact that ATI made a mistake and that mistake was not
keeping up with technology. Do I want a hack to give me one feature
that I could get without a hack and still get more features (ie object instancing?). No, I want the real thing. The real extension to 2.0+,
which is SM3.0, which is a real direct X 9 feature and its officially not
a hack or something for ONLY Nvidia.

I will wait until the end of this year. If ATI does not bring out
SM 3.0, then I will be forced to go back to Nvidia. Its pretty
much that simple.

Now, according to reports on this very Forum, ATI will not bring
out a chip this year with SM30 support and will not do so
until 2005, which at that point I will have already switch back to
Nvidia.

The sad fact is that a lot of you call me an Nvidiot, which is really
a stupid thing to do since I am far more objective than that.

However, when I pay $500 US dollars, I want the latest technology
so that I can use it with my programming. ATI didn't this generation
and really let me down. I want to upgrade from my 9800 Pro, so I am
looking for the next best bet and that currently would be the Geforce 6800 Ultra.

It is what it is guys. I mean come on, ATI added 16-pipelines at the last minute when they found out Nvidia had put 16 pipelines in their product and then on top of that Nvidia also had 128 bit color and SM 3.0 and ATI doesn't and ATI was supposed to be the technology leader here instead of follower. Whe is going on??????

So, yes. In my mind, ATI f*cked up this generation.

No, you are an nVidiot in the truest sense of the word and to say otherwise is a denial of reality....it's kind of why I stopped responding to your nonsense.

So, you like getting ripped off that when you buy a $400-$500 US dollar video card that you are not getting what you should be getting (ie no 128 bit color and no SM 3.0)?

Look Nvidia did the same thing when they came out with their cards, no render target and their shaders were terrible with speed and now they got their crap together well at least for the moment and technology leader from the 9700 days are now missing in technology when it comes to direct x 9.0c

You don't have to be an Nvidiot to understand the basics of common sense here.

Nvidia is no better than ATI as a company,they make the same stupid mistakes, thats why I said they are run by rednecks, because they make the same stupid mistakes and not learn from any of it.

All I want is an ATI product that is competitive to Nvidia's Geforce 6800 Ultra and thats too much to ask for I guess.

Like I said, I am a programmer and want to make use of SM 3.0 object
instancing in my software. I am willing to pay out $500 US dollars for that
and have that feature which ATI does not have nor will have until 2005 and in my mind that is unacceptable.

If it wasn't for the PowerVR on this forum we probably would need to rename these forums to something with "Beyond ATI" instead of "Beyond 3D", thats how bad its become with fanboyism around here.

Look, Nvidia is at fault with a lot of people hating them and thats true, they are liars and cheaters and I can understand that.

To be fair though, ATI hasn't lied at least I have never seen that happen, but they have cheated according to threads on this forum.

I am not claming Nvidia to be a better company, but the Geforce 6800 Ultra is a product with more features that I need for what I am doing.

If ATI doesn't have those features that I need, then I can't purchase an ATI product, can I?

I want more for my money and Nvidia can currently do that for me, does it mean I am an Nvidiot? No. But ATI doesn't seem to want to put SM 3.0 in their products this year according to many, many sources on this board and they won't do so until 2005. Does that make me an Nvidiot? No.

So before you call someone an Nvidiot, please know what the hell you are talking about.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: It is, what it is.

I was under the impression that real-time 3D gaming in general was a collection of hacks that substituted for the "real thing."

Word of warning, you should be sitting down when reading the next few sentences.

PC Graphics is the art of applying hacks. The power doesn't exist to do everything properly.

Breathe. Take it in. Breathe. Accept it. Breathe. Embrace it. Breathe. That's reality. Breathe. Get over it. Breathe

I was going to say, isn't programming just a way of putting a bunch of hacks together in a useful and interesting way?

 

[Proforma]

Re: It is, what it is.

So humus makes a hack to get around one of the features of SM 3.0, well thats great and all, but its just a hack thats not a really good substitute for the real thing.

Word of warning, you should be sitting down when reading the next few sentences.

PC Graphics is the art of applying hacks. The power doesn't exist to do everything properly.

Breathe. Take it in. Breathe. Accept it. Breathe. Embrace it. Breathe. That's reality. Breathe. Get over it. Breathe

I wasn't talking about General art of applying different was to accomplish something, I was talking about in this specific case.

Getting over it, is something you will have to take issue with yourself, its not my problem.

 

[BRiT]

Re: It is, what it is.

Like I said, I am a programmer and want to make use of SM 3.0 object instancing in my software. I am willing to pay out $500 US dollars for that and have that feature which ATI does not have nor will have until 2005 and in my mind that is unacceptable.

Have you seen the SM 2.0 object instancing demo by ATI? Why do you need SM 3.0 to do the same thing? To me it looks like it's easily capable of being done in SM 2.0. Wait, let me guess, you're going to tell us that it's a hack too, right?

 

[jvd]

ook, Nvidia is at fault with a lot of people hating them and thats true, they are liars and cheaters and I can understand that

I bought a 5800ultra with promises as this will be the best dx 9 card with fp 32 and beyond ps 2.0 .

Guess what. Its running with less quality and slower in all the games i wnat to play (half life 2 , doom 3 , farcry) then my older 9700pro and it has less image quality and fsaa quality than the 9700pro.

You think now because nvidia has a sm3.0 card which is beyond p.s 2.0 and v.s 2.0 and it has 32fp that i'm going to trust that it will be the card for the games i want to play (half life 2 , doom 3 , farcry , everquest 2 ?)

I was burnt once by them and put up with crap for over a year from them holding back the industry.

Now we have the x800s which have less features just like the r3x0 line but has the speed to use the features it has as seen by the farcry benchmarks ati doesn't need sm3.0 to speed it up its already faster than the 6800ultra extreme in most cases with fsaa and aniso.

If ATI doesn't have those features that I need, then I can't purchase an ATI product, can I?

if you "need" those features to program apps then that is great.

You certianly don't need them to play games as the ati part will play the games with the same image qaulity faster than the 6800s with sm 3.0


I certianly did not get ripped off buying my x800xt . I"m playing all the games i want with over 4x fsaa and 16 aniso and getting great frames .

In 2 years it may not run unreal engine 3 games as fast as nvidia but all of us here would be upgrading again around that point so i highly doubt it matters .

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: It is, what it is.

So, you like getting ripped off that when you buy a $400-$500 US dollar video card

I've never paid more than $175 for a video card, I'm cheap.

that you are not getting what you should be getting (ie no 128 bit color and no SM 3.0)?

True, but I also know that there is no need for either 128 bit color nor SM 3.0 yet and it isn't like ATi is claiming that their product has either.

Look Nvidia did the same thing when they came out with their cards, no render target and their shaders were terrible with speed and now they got their crap together well at least for the moment and technology leader from the 9700 days are now missing in technology when it comes to direct x 9.0c

You don't have to be an Nvidiot to understand the basics of common sense here.

Nvidia is no better than ATI as a company,they make the same stupid mistakes, thats why I said they are run by rednecks, because they make the same stupid mistakes and not learn from any of it.

All I want is an ATI product that is competitive to Nvidia's Geforce 6800 Ultra and thats too much to ask for I guess.

Like I said, I am a programmer and want to make use of SM 3.0 object
instancing in my software. I am willing to pay out $500 US dollars for that
and have that feature which ATI does not have nor will have until 2005 and in my mind that is unacceptable.

If it wasn't for the PowerVR on this forum we probably would need to rename these forums to something with "Beyond ATI" instead of "Beyond 3D", thats how bad its become with fanboyism around here.

Look, Nvidia is at fault with a lot of people hating them and thats true, they are liars and cheaters and I can understand that.

To be fair though, ATI hasn't lied at least I have never seen that happen, but they have cheated according to threads on this forum.

I am not claming Nvidia to be a better company, but the Geforce 6800 Ultra is a product with more features that I need for what I am doing.

If ATI doesn't have those features that I need, then I can't purchase an ATI product, can I?

I want more for my money and Nvidia can currently do that for me, does it mean I am an Nvidiot? No. But ATI doesn't seem to want to put SM 3.0 in their products this year according to many, many sources on this board and they won't do so until 2005. Does that make me an Nvidiot? No.

So before you call someone an Nvidiot, please know what the hell you are talking about.

I think I can safely say without too much bragging that I am an expert at video card fanboys. I might not be the brightest technically in the bunch, but I don't know that you could get a more knowledgeable person on the dynamics and characteristics of the various idiosyncrasies within the video card enthusiast community.

I say you're an nVidiot, and an nVidiot provocateur with an agenda like a few others in this thread at that.

My only questions about you concern motivation, not goal or label.

 

[ZenThought]

SM3

so SM3.0 usesful or not useful?

if it is useful then NVDA is ahead of ATI in terms of features

if it not useful whey bother to implement in future?

 

[Pete]

Re: It is, what it is.

So, you like getting ripped off that when you buy a $400-$500 US dollar video card that you are not getting what you should be getting (ie no 128 bit color and no SM 3.0)?

Far Cry v1.2 shows the first SM3.0 benefits, and they don't show X800 owners as having been ripped off.

Look Nvidia did the same thing when they came out with their cards, no render target and their shaders were terrible with speed and now they got their crap together well at least for the moment and technology leader from the 9700 days are now missing in technology when it comes to direct x 9.0c

ATi may be lacking features, but they don't seem to be lacking speed. Please be more precise.

You don't have to be an Nvidiot to understand the basics of common sense here.

You may grasp the "basics" of common sense, but you don't seem to be grasping its application.

All I want is an ATI product that is competitive to Nvidia's Geforce 6800 Ultra and thats too much to ask for I guess.

Like I said, I am a programmer and want to make use of SM 3.0 object
instancing in my software. I am willing to pay out $500 US dollars for that
and have that feature which ATI does not have nor will have until 2005 and in my mind that is unacceptable.

Now we're getting to the meat of the matter. The X800 and 6800 are generally made for gamers, not programmers, so I'm not sure how a lack of SM3.0 on the X800's part makes ATi into con artists.

If it wasn't for the PowerVR on this forum we probably would need to rename these forums to something with "Beyond ATI" instead of "Beyond 3D", thats how bad its become with fanboyism around here.

And you feel one good <bleep> deserves another?

I am not claming Nvidia to be a better company, but the Geforce 6800 Ultra is a product with more features that I need for what I am doing.

This seems sensible and understandable. Your previous posts seem to be less so, IMO.

 

[jvd]

Re: SM3

so SM3.0 usesful or not useful?

if it is useful then NVDA is ahead of ATI in terms of features

if it not useful whey bother to implement in future?

depends on what u mean by usefull.

Nvidia can use it and from one example (the only one ) it is not enough to be faster than the x800xt.