New Cell Info/Interview

[Carl B]

Well, first off thanks to Insane Metal back at PSI for fnding this earlier today. I don't know if it stems originally from a Goto interview (and thus in Japanese?) or what, but some of his images are in there. If it does, then maybe someone has the line on the original Japanese at PC-Watch or something and can translate? (One)

But if this interview originates on Ruliweb, then truly it would be a great service if any Korean-speaking members could give us a One-style breakdown of this.

http://ruliweb2.dreamwiz.com/ruliboard/read.htm?num=13944&table=game_ps04&main=ps

I've put it through Google and Babelfish, and suffice to say that it's not worth reposting the results here. It seems to be about Cell fabbing and inclusion into consumer electronics, with 2-4 SPE chips using standard DDR... but there seems to be a lot more of interest in there as well beyond the machine-translation's grasp.

Anyway if there are any of you 'guests' who frequently browse through B3D who speak Korean and have some time on your hands, now's a great time to join up and give something back.

 

[Titanio]

IGN has updated with a report on what I think is this interview..

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/712/712522p1.html

Kutaragi says that Cell will move to 65nm next year, and shipments of those will be available "later that year".

Also talks about Cell in other products. He mentions that using as few as 2 SPEs in Cell for certain products would be OK, and that they "have plans".

 

[Bad_Boy]

I remember hearing things in early 2005 about the cell being used in HDTV's, servers, and other electronics. I couldnt even begin to imagine what games would look with a cell in the rumored psp2. Even with just 2-4 SPE's that should be a pretty big jump.

I really don't get the impression Sony is having any problems with the cpu, despite recent reports/rumors.

 

[Urian]

Embedded PowerPC core= PowerPC 440. In other words:

-700Mhz
-DDR Interface
-4 SPE

These are the specs of Cell Mini for electronic consuming products.

 

[Titanio]

Embedded PowerPC core= PowerPC 440. In other words:

-700Mhz
-DDR Interface
-4 SPE

These are the specs of Cell Mini for electronic consuming products.

The caption for that picture in the original article indicates that that's just the author's speculation on what Cell for other appliances could look like. He suggests the 4-SPE configuration to Kutaragi, and Kutaragi says they could go as low as 2.

The original article at PC Watch Impress is here, btw: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/0614/kaigai281.htm

 

[Fafalada]

Even with just 2-4 SPE's that should be a pretty big jump

Depends on the clock speeds - I don't think a portable device will run 3+Ghz CPUs anytime soon.

 

[London Geezer]

Depends on the clock speeds - I don't think a portable device will run 3+Ghz CPUs anytime soon.

My hands get really cold in the winter. Bad circulation. I'm sure someone could market a portable that also helps your circulation!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Depends on the clock speeds - I don't think a portable device will run 3+Ghz CPUs anytime soon.

What about 2GHz? I thought the power envelope dropped off sharply as you approached underclocking speeds, so it ought to run very cool and efficient, no? 4 SPU's at 2 GHz, or even 1 GHz, would be a lot of portable oomph to upgrade on PSP's graphics. I don't expect one though as Sony rightfully want to milk PSP - it's not an MP3 player warranting a new model every year or two!

 

[Urian]

Depends on the clock speeds - I don't think a portable device will run 3+Ghz CPUs anytime soon.

This is why I think that the embedded PowerPC in the diagram is a PowerPC 440.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Depends on the clock speeds - I don't think a portable device will run 3+Ghz CPUs anytime soon.

Of course, but how low do you expect it to go. If it were anywhere from 700mhz-2+ghz it would be many times better than the current 222~333mhz.

 

[Bad_Boy]

I don't expect one though as Sony rightfully want to milk PSP - it's not an MP3 player warranting a new model every year or two!

I agree, I atleast hope Sony waits until 2008 before even announcing a 2nd PSP. The first one still has A LOT of potential and more features that are not even out yet.

*oops. sorry for double post.

 

[Urian]

If the Xbox portable thing that Dean Takahashi is talking about I am sure that a PSP 2.0 is under design, for me the words from Kutaragi about a Cell with 2 SPE for embedded products is the signal.

I am the typical person that reads between lines.

 

[sonyps35]

If the Xbox portable thing that Dean Takahashi is talking about I am sure that a PSP 2.0 is under design

I doubt that. DS is less powerful but still doing well. I dont see the point.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If the Xbox portable thing that Dean Takahashi is talking about I am sure that a PSP 2.0 is under design, for me the words from Kutaragi about a Cell with 2 SPE for embedded products is the signal.

I am the typical person that reads between lines.

In this field there's new tech every year. It's changing faster than the PC space. But a system is more than just hardware. Look at the GameBoy for example. As long as you can provide a pricepoint, service, and overall ability in hardware that does the job, you can keep the platform sound. If in 2007 MS release a $300 handheld at 3x the power of PSP and none of the software library (that might appear by then on PSP ) and if PSP is less than half the price and integrates very closely with PS3 which by then has shown it's the dominant console player, etc., there's lots more for people to pick between the two than just tech performance.

 

[Carl B]

Ok well read a machine-translaton of the Japanese.

Anyway seems most of the conversation focuses on the balance of sentiment and need that must exist for Cell to take off in the CE space. Failing that, the architecture will face walls in terms of corporate culture on the CE-side and from being hardware overkill.

I can't quite grasp whether Sony plans on going ahead with it anyway, or if he is refering to Sony as well with these comments.

Also seems to be some interesting references to the would-be cooling solution within the PS3, but it's too garbled in that part to properly interpret.

 

[one]

Anyway seems most of the conversation focuses on the balance of sentiment and need that must exist for Cell to take off in the CE space. Failing that, the architecture will face walls in terms of corporate culture on the CE-side and from being hardware overkill.

I can't quite grasp whether Sony plans on going ahead with it anyway, or if he is refering to Sony as well with these comments.

That's right, and Kutaragi refers to the mainstream Sony Electronics as "people who'd believed in CRT until recently", then asked by Goto about TFT he says it's him who decided to invest in TFT when he was a Sony VP. He thinks the CE space won't change without new-generation engineers who have grown up with computers and regard those who resist computerization of CE goods as old men in the Stone Age. It's as if he regained his outcast mentality at SCE.

The mini-cell diagram is Goto's speculation as always.

The 90nm Cell is manufactured in Fishkill and Nagasaki, and the both plants copy their process technologies each other to share them. 65nm will be manufactured by them too in 2007.

Since LongRun2 is not suitable to SOI it's applied to the bulk process. LongRun 1 is likely to be used for Cell. Though PS3 uses heat pipes and some custom cooling methods, it doesn't use bizarre things such as watercooling because of reliability in mass production. The power supply unit is one of the parts packed in PS3 that cost high and Kutaragi jokes that it can be sold separately with a price tag,

 

[Carl B]

Cool, thanks for the breakdown One.

So is the sense then that Sony is going to go ahead with Cell in some products, or that Kutaragi and/or the semiconductor division is still trying to sell them on it?

 

[aldo]

Though PS3 uses heat pipes and some custom cooling methods, it doesn't use bizarre things such as watercooling because of reliability in mass production. The power supply unit is one of the parts packed in PS3 that cost high and Kutaragi jokes that it can be sold separately with a price tag,

One, apparently you're not as creative as some in interpreting Kutaragi 's comments. Here's GameDaily's take:

Finally, Kutaragi talked about how to cool the Cell processor, and judging by his comments, one might think that Sony would make the power supply external for the PlayStation 3, similar to the Xbox 360's infamous power brick, which is almost as tall as the Microsoft console itself.

"We'll use heat pipes and a custom cooling solution, but the methods used will be common," he said. "We definitely aren't using any proprietary methods... We certainly couldn't fit a liquid cooling system [inside the PS3]... We're spending a lot on heat and electromagnetic interference [management]. The power supply could almost be sold separately."

I have no idea at all how Mr. Brightman at GameDaily pulls that little gem from Ken's comments.

It should be obvious to anyone that Ken is saying that they will have a third SKU priced at $399 which comes without the power supply.

-aldo

 

[pakotlar]

One, apparently you're not as creative as some in interpreting Kutaragi 's comments. Here's GameDaily's take:
I have no idea at all how Mr. Brightman at GameDaily pulls that little gem from Ken's comments.

It should be obvious to anyone that Ken is saying that they will have a third SKU priced at $399 which comes without the power supply.

-aldo

LOL

 

[mestaice]

Seems to be monophase on the back of final design ?
Maybe another difference between the two SKUs