My Wii Mini Review : First Impressions

[Natoma]

It's not relevant what the default control scheme is. People playing competetively will choose the best control scheme available. Your quote implied that Metroid Prime with WiiMote had the best FPS control scheme. I simply disagree. Even your quote said "It very nearly approaches keyboard and mouse.".

1) Read what DemoCoder's statement was that I was responding to, in particular the bit about traditional dual analog control.

2) Keyboard and mouse gaming on console is rare, and certainly not expected as a control scheme on a console.

It's quite obvious that the discussion revolves around normal game pad controls.

 

[Natoma]

So marketshare guarantees that the wii will get some half assed AAA ports? Great, let me rush out and buy one. And the Wii has yet to prove that it can sell games, I'll admit thats a bit of a catch 22, but until some 3rd party developers get significant success on a wii title, I don't think they will be lining up to produce wii games, at least not as the main target console.

They'll have a choice and likely Wii will never see highest budget 3rd party games on their system. The sales are not quaranteed to be excess of what they'll get on the hardcore systems and the last gen tech makes it harder to port these games. Wii's support will grow for sure, but you expecting all 3rd parties to just jump ship is not as much a basic economics, but maybe wishful thinking. It ain't happening.

If the Wii is around 30m consoles sold while the 360 is around 15m and the PS3 is around 8-10m (extrapolation of current sales trends), do you honestly believe developers are still going to cater to the 360 and PS3 as heavily?

The current sales trends are going in that direction right now, and seemingly accelerating. As I said, it's basic economics here.

There is no "secret sauce" when it comes to selling games on a Nintendo platform. Put out quality games and you'll sell well. Ubisoft and Capcom learned this well with their releases. People are hungry for quality games, not games like Midway's Cruisin.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

If the Wii is around 30m consoles sold while the 360 is around 15m and the PS3 is around 8-10m (extrapolation of current sales trends), do you honestly believe developers are still going to cater to the 360 and PS3 as heavily?

The current sales trends are going in that direction right now, and seemingly accelerating. As I said, it's basic economics here.

There is no "secret sauce" when it comes to selling games on a Nintendo platform. Put out quality games and you'll sell well. Ubisoft and Capcom learned this well with their releases. People are hungry for quality games, not games like Midway's Cruisin.

Even in that hypotethical situation the market for a multiplatform PS3 and X360 game would be almost as big in user base terms and would probably have much bigger target audience among that userbase , let's not kid ourselves the democraphics are vastly different.

Of course having the edge on userbase makes a difference, Wii having it doesn't make as much difference as some other console though, and I don't personally see much resources taken away from X360 and PS3 development, even if Wii gains some. I'm not saying that Wii won't get high profile 3rd party games, all I'm saying is that I likely won't notice that in my X360 library not to a point where it becomes a problem anyways. In general I don't think these consoles compete for the same dollars on the user end and because of that the publisher behaviour is not just basic economics in this case.

I don't think we can use past generations as a rule to this particular case either. This is unique new situation and the history of consoles is too short to have answers to all these new questions.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I liked the Tiger handheld to PSP and DS analogy.

There's no way that the Wii will ever become the lead platform for games to be ported to the 360 and PS3.

Those games simply won't sell on the advanced systems.

Defenders of the Wii proclaim graphics as unnecessary because they knew they were making that sacrifice when they purchased the system.

PS3 and 360 owners made no such choice and are not ready to make any such sacrifice. PS3 and 360 games will continue to look better, not worse, which means the Wii (regardless of market share) will not become the lead platform for ports.

 

[Natoma]

Dr Evil and RancidLunchmeat,

For the Wii to even be where it is today is in direct disagreement with "conventional wisdom" a year ago, or even 6 months ago. First it was the Wii would be a distant 3rd. Then it was the Wii couldn't possibly continue its sales and outpace the PS3. Then it was the Wii couldn't possibly catch the 360 in sales anytime soon. And so forth and so on.

I thought the Wii was going to be a failure this gen, and my own expectations of the system have gone away from "I know this will happen" to "Who knows what will happen".

You both say that the Wii has little to no shot at being the prime development platform. All I'm saying is that the history of the past 9 months should show that you should never to make those kinds of statements when it comes to this system.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

All I'm saying is that the history of the past 9 months should show that you should never to make those kinds of statements when it comes to this system.

Hey I know, but I like living on the edge I'm first to admit that I didn't saw the success of the Wii beforehand, but even still that is little bit besides my point, as I just don't see it competing with the other consoles in the same market, it's something else. Kind of like DS is selling monstrous numbers, but I don't see it affecting on the X360 game library, it is probably affecting PSP library, but PSP and DS are in a more direct competition than Wii and the other consoles of course all this is IMO only.

 

[AlphaWolf]

If the Wii is around 30m consoles sold while the 360 is around 15m and the PS3 is around 8-10m (extrapolation of current sales trends), do you honestly believe developers are still going to cater to the 360 and PS3 as heavily?

The current sales trends are going in that direction right now, and seemingly accelerating. As I said, it's basic economics here.

There is no "secret sauce" when it comes to selling games on a Nintendo platform. Put out quality games and you'll sell well. Ubisoft and Capcom learned this well with their releases. People are hungry for quality games, not games like Midway's Cruisin.

As I said the Wii still has to prove it can sell games, word is Madden 08 is selling at a much higher rate on the 360 than the wii, with the roughly the same install base, we'll know for sure in a month. Ubi, Epic and EA aren't going to start throwing a lot of dollars at the Wii if the owners won't buy their titles and I don't expect those companies to reinvent themselves to suit the wii market. There's a tried and true market for their titles.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Even in that hypotethical situation the market for a multiplatform PS3 and X360 game would be almost as big in user base terms

It's not quite so simple. First, even in that hypothetical situation, the PS3+360 userbase is 15-25% smaller than Wii's. Second, if PS3/360 games require selling 1m units to break even while Wii games require an average 250K units, then the Wii poses a greater profit opportunity even if its userbase is only 15% bigger.

In general I don't think these consoles compete for the same dollars on the user end and because of that the publisher behaviour is not just basic economics in this case.

I think that's the first valid point you may have made. I don't think Wii players by and large overlap PS3/360 players that much.

There's no way that the Wii will ever become the lead platform for games to be ported to the 360 and PS3.

Of course it won't. What it will hopefully become is the "lead," actually only, platform for its own vast library of exclusive games, kind of like the PS2 was.

 

[3dcgi]

I don't have a Wii, but we have one in the break room at work and I play it 3 or 4 times a week. Usually I play Wii Tennis and Baseball. My initial experience with Tennis was the same as DemoCoder, the lag bugged me. But, after playing a few games I discovered I didn't notice the lag any more. Now I love playing it and one of these days I'd like to play a complete tennis game rather than this half game.

The pointer is jumpy unless you can keep your hand very still. I've gotten better at it, but Nintendo should have smoothed it out a bit. I tried Zelda one day and the pointer was a lot easier to control in that game.

The games and controls are not perfect, but they're still fun. Maybe one day I'll buy one, but with so many good games coming out for the 360 this fall it will be a while before I buy a Wii.

 

[dubyateeeff]

As I said the Wii still has to prove it can sell games, word is Madden 08 is selling at a much higher rate on the 360 than the wii, with the roughly the same install base, we'll know for sure in a month. Ubi, Epic and EA aren't going to start throwing a lot of dollars at the Wii if the owners won't buy their titles and I don't expect those companies to reinvent themselves to suit the wii market. There's a tried and true market for their titles.

While they have about the same install base, Wii is much bigger in Japan where Madden is much smaller. So selling fewer titles is basicly a given and no indication of anything.

Edit: of course, I would assume even if things where on even footing between them a title like Madden would generally be less of interest for the Wii crowd.

 

[liolio]

I never had the chance to try the Wii.

But I like the "nunchuck" system.
I feel like it's the perfect control for a lot of games types.
It looks great for FPS or TFS obvioulsy.
It can emulate the keyboard+mouse for strategic games, help a lot for RPG.

In fact the few games where that type of input could be uselesss would be:
sport games
racing games
Combat games

Strangely I'm not atttracted at all by motion sensitivity, I do sport when I have to move my body.
In fact The point the console experience (vs PC) id to be able to sit in the sofa and taking profit of a huge screen.

Early somebody spoke of UE III and the fact that you will be allowed to use keyboard + mouse, If I feel that a game needs these controls I use my computer (if it's powerfull enough).
If I buy a console it will be close to the tv (hd or not), I don't want to put my console in the same place as my computer.
It's what I liked when I played my dreamcast or ps1, sitting(or layed) on the sofa with a huge screen.

MY point is that a nunchuck like device could offset the default of standart gamepad for game that we used to play on a computer, even do better(comfort, portability), and in the same time be a better than a gamepad in most situation.
It could have been best of both worlds.

What troubles me anytime I look to the nintendo solution, is the fact that (I put away motion sensitivity again or the fact that precision could be better other companies can do it better I talk about the concept) I feel like the control are overly simplistic to really catch up with with a keyboard+mouse combo for rpg and rts for example, worse the control don't seem able to match 360 or ps3 controlers as far as possibility of control (lake of buttons).

 

[AlphaWolf]

While they have about the same install base, Wii is much bigger in Japan where Madden is much smaller. So selling fewer titles is basicly a given and no indication of anything.

Edit: of course, I would assume even if things where on even footing between them a title like Madden would generally be less of interest for the Wii crowd.

And if it sells half or a 1/3rd as many copies on Wii as the 360?

What 3rd party titles would be of interest to the wii crowd? If they aren't going to like anything but 'nintendo' titles, that's pretty much the case I'm making anyway. If they aren't going to buy into any of the franchises, the AAA 3rd party developers certainly aren't going to use wii as a lead platform. They'll make wii ports and wii owners can take it or leave it and just buy the newest nintendo game. And the developers will just whine that the wii doesn't sell games.

 

[Corwin_B]

As I said the Wii still has to prove it can sell games, word is Madden 08 is selling at a much higher rate on the 360 than the wii, with the roughly the same install base, we'll know for sure in a month.

Trauma Center : Second Opinion is the best-selling Atlus title in the US ever. Both Rayman : RR and Red Steel sold around 1 million worldwide. Sonic sold pretty well (still in the UK charts, I think). Tiger Woods Wii sold well too (the Wii version outsold the 360 version worldwide). Lastly, RE4 sold 250K in the US over the course of a bit more than one month, which is not bad for a port of a 2 years old game (Capcom was aiming at 420K worldwide over the life of this title, and they are already at 360K for just US+JP). I'm only mentioning some 3rd party titles here.

Morality : decent/good games with some marketing effort sell well on the Wii, especially considering the low development costs. Crappy shovelware tanks, just like on mostly any console. With the DS, Nintendo has proven they don't need 3rd party developers to be extremely successful, but that 3rd party making good efforts on the platform will see great sales (see Square-Enix, for example). 3rd party publishers can release crap on the platform, complain that "3rd party games don't sell on Nintendo platforms", and then go bankrupt if they want. It's not like PS3 SW sales are lighting the charts...

Regarding Madden 08, the 360 still has a larger userbase in the US, and the 360 version was marketed very heavily, from what I understand.

 

[Natoma]

And if it sells half or a 1/3rd as many copies on Wii as the 360?

What if the Wii development is only 1/4 the cost of the 360 variant? They've still made a profit then.

What 3rd party titles would be of interest to the wii crowd?

Easy. Good titles.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Trauma Center : Second Opinion is the best-selling Atlus title in the US ever. Both Rayman : RR and Red Steel sold around 1 million worldwide. Sonic sold pretty well (still in the UK charts, I think). Tiger Woods Wii sold well too (the Wii version outsold the 360 version worldwide). Lastly, RE4 sold 250K in the US over the course of a bit more than one month, which is not bad for a port of a 2 years old game (Capcom was aiming at 420K worldwide over the life of this title, and they are already at 360K for just US+JP). I'm only mentioning some 3rd party titles here.

Are you sure about tiger woods? last I checked the 360 version sold more but I can't say I've seen that number lately.

AS for Atlus's sales, that says a lot if their best selling game ever was Trauma Center: Second Opinion. I was more talking about the major AAA devs such as EA and Ubisoft who have money invested into franchise names and are going to continue to pump out those titles whether people will buy them for the wii or not.

What if the Wii development is only 1/4 the cost of the 360 variant? They've still made a profit then.

Well making a profit is nice for them and it will probably continue to get wii ports, but its far from setting wii up as the generational leader. ie that's not going to put it where the ps2 was 5 years ago.

Easy. Good titles.

Its not that easy for developers apparently, if old favorites don't sell well on the wii.

I'll admit it's much too early to tell with the wii, but I'm far from convinced that the hardware selling well is going to lead to the wii becoming the platform of choice for developers.

It'll be interesting to compare the sales of the newest metroid to some of the 360 titles, although I doubt it'll touch halo sales.

 

[Zaphod]

Well making a profit is nice for them and it will probably continue to get wii ports, but its far from setting wii up as the generational leader. ie that's not going to put it where the ps2 was 5 years ago.

What's in question is who gets first dibs when the money-cake is cut as far as development goes.

You seem to be talking about generational leadership in terms of titles appearing first on one format and then being ported to the other. I don't think anyone is arguing against that being unlikely.

The Wii may very well become the platform leader in how willing publishers are to part with their money, though. I can easily see how a developer pitching a concept for a high end title at cost X being told to come back with a design for a Wii game at 1/4X before there's any talk about their original proposal. Assuming the Wii becomes the dominant market leader as far as install base goes, it doesn't really matter if the attach rate isn't as good as for the x360. The lower development cost will make the Wii an attractive proposition for those holding the money, and this could impact funding for high budget titles on the other platforms (unless you're a 1st party, an established name, or building on a proven franchise).

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

And if it sells half or a 1/3rd as many copies on Wii as the 360?

What 3rd party titles would be of interest to the wii crowd? If they aren't going to like anything but 'nintendo' titles, that's pretty much the case I'm making anyway. If they aren't going to buy into any of the franchises, the AAA 3rd party developers certainly aren't going to use wii as a lead platform. They'll make wii ports and wii owners can take it or leave it and just buy the newest nintendo game. And the developers will just whine that the wii doesn't sell games.

I think every kind of game will sell on wii. I dont believe in this wii owners are different that ps3/x360 owners thing. Sure it probably is for some part, but for the biggest part its still normal gamers I think. Kinda like DS with the touch! software. A part of the owners is beyond the traditional gamer, but most are still normal gamers. But devs do need to release quality titels. Psp/ps2 ports with (crappy) tacked on controlls wont sell.

 

[DemoCoder]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

WORST, MOST STUPID INTERFACE EVER! == Wii Add Points with Credit Card


1) SUPER ANNOYING DATA ENTRY WITH POINTER! Why oh WHY can't I use the nunchunk or 4-way direction buttons to cursor over the keyboard.

2) If you make a mistake, it just tells you there was an error and you have to START OVER. That's right, if you mistyped a digit or single character, you can't hit 'back' like one would expect on any good UI letting you reedit your stuff.


What were they thinking? Do they really think it is faster/easier to use the onscreen keyboard with a pointer than with cursor keys?


I had to re-enter 3 times because of typos. And unlike xb360/ps3, there doesn't appear to be a 'delete' key button (maybe there is, I tried 'b' and '-' and direction buttons). I had to navigate over to the "<-" and manually click it, instead of using something like 'O' on PS3 to del the last character.

I am not impressed by the VC at all. It seems inferior in selection and quality compared to what I got with MAME/NES/SNES on the PC or hacked XB1.

I really think the Wii is a real turd of a console, maybe worth about $120 (price of GC + controller), in fact, I think the GameCube was better, because a) it had better control and b) was not super far behind in other features compared to PS2/Xbox1.


Once XB360 and PS3 drop in price, the Wii's gonna be in big trouble, as ports make the Wii look really bad, and I think that the control problems are fundamental and not really resolvable without revising the Wiimote/Sensorbar itself. I personally think probably the best games on the Wii will use the lightgun approach. We know Duckhunt works. So it might be a nice 'house of the dead' system, but otherwise, it's way too niche oriented.

The XB360/PS3 seem to handle a far wider selection of game genres, and with better graphics and sound.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Once XB360 and PS3 drop in price, the Wii's gonna be in big trouble, as ports make the Wii look really bad, and I think that the control problems are fundamental and not really resolvable without revising the Wiimote/Sensorbar itself.

Although it seems the market isn't put off but what some of us feel are disappointing controls, and if that's what they buying Wii for, XB360 and PS3 aren't going to be any sort of alternative.

 

[fearsomepirate]

It seems inferior in selection and quality compared to what I got with MAME/NES/SNES

Well, duh. Every console and arcade game ever released and even some that haven't are available for emulation. So it's mathematically impossible for VC to have a better selection than emulators. But that's like saying I'm not impressed with the selection of Steam since I have better selection with torrent searchers.

I agree with you about interface. I first noticed it on Fire Emblem. Are Nintendo's interface people been living in a hole? Or are they so worried about violating someone's software patents that the only way they can find to even make an interface is to make it broken?

As far as genres go, I think you might be confusing "This console has more games in the two or three genres I really like" with "This console has more genres." As far as I can tell, Wii's software library represents roughly the same number of genres as 360's or PS3's (the latter of which still doesn't have much software available).