My Wii Mini Review : First Impressions

[Rainbow Man]

Demo,
Maybe you're right. Who can say.

I just know so many people were absolutely cerytain the wii would bomb horribly and just crash and burn spectacularly. And well.. that didn't quite happen.

Tacked-on control schemes and all - I think there'll be enough quality games for the system to survive in the long run. Didn't we have a threadthat said wii had already sold more in the UK than the GC ever ddi? Soon that'll be true worldwide too.

I don't think the people who aren't appealed by the 360 and PS3 because of their complicated controllers will be appealed by the 360 and PS3 just because these platforms drop in price..

Right now many software devs and publishers seem to be falling over themselves to hop onto the wii bandwagon and they probably don't quite know what they want to do or how to do it. So what we get is tacked-on controls and games without lasting appeal.

But that was the case with the DS too when it was new. Things will change.
Peace.

 

[Zaphod]

My conclusion? WiiFans, you are not going to like it.

Like it?

In my experience with Wii owners (one of which is a 'fan', some of which have it to play with the kids, and some of which are just occasional 'party' users), they just wouldn't care. None of them see the Wii as belonging to the traditional 'game console' image that has grown persistent since the PS1. It seems to be treated more like a game of Pictionary or Croquet and more akin to the days of Duck Hunt with the original Nintendo lightgun than anything recent console related. Only one of them is likely to be a regular software purchaser (gushing about RE4), but even if the others only pick up a title or two each year after hearing about or trying something 'fun' somewhere, Nintendo should still be deliriously happy.

Some of them might shelve it eventually, but others might be incited to become regular customers by products like:

a piece of fancy exercise equipment that looks innovative and stylish, but sits in a closet unused

So does most gym memberships & equipment. Hell, being unused might even guilt people into purchasing the inevitable sequel (aka. the gym membership renewal). This time I'll really start exercising! This time...

 

[Natoma]

The question isn't whether Metroid will be a non-gimmicky game, the questions is whether or not it will play better with the Wiimote than playing with a traditional dual analog stick setup.

The answer to your question is Yes, it does. Every review of Metroid to date has stated that it is by far the best FPS controls of any console game, ever. It very nearly approaches keyboard and mouse.

Unfortunately, in most of the 'real game' reviews of Wii titles, there are huge complaints of control schemes. e.g. Prince of Persia. Was Red Steel a 'real game', because the control there looked terrible to me.

PoP was a PS2 game that was ported with tacked on controls. Apparently the job wasn't a particularly good one.

Godfather Blackhand and Scarface, otoh, were games that were ports, but they were done well.

I tried to pick games that would show the Wiimote's strengths, not games that were traditional FPSes with Wiimote control slapped on, rather, games *designed* for cursor-style control.

In any case, to someone who mentioned it, I didn't buy any Wii games yet, these are rentals.

For me, it comes down to this: I was promised a revolutionary control scheme. I imagined being immersed into the game. What I got was a jiggly high-latency gesture control system.

The Wii is based on a fallacy that it is the physicality of motion that immerses you, when research has shown that people's internal body-map gets extended around tools in your hand and becomes integrated (second nature) during use, regardless of whether or not they are anthropomorphic in movement.

The key issue is reaction time, that's why steady framerate (and IMHO, 60fps) coupled with near zero-lag control schemes in important. If your onscreen avatar reacts instantly to your control, after a few minutes, the controller will become 'invisible' and second nature, and you won't have to think about it.

On the other hand, if 30% of the time, performing a gesture a) lags up to 300ms and b) doesn't get recognized property (game doesn't do what you commanded it to), the control scheme does NOT become invisible or second nature.

The Wiimote just doesn't seem precise enough to me. It's as if you had an optical mouse with a refresh rate of 10hz, and a jitter inaccuracy of up to 10%.

How about this for a next-gen console: Graphics be damned, the only requirement is that all games must be locked at 60fps, no exceptions, and that control latency cannot be more than 3 frames.

Everything you've stated, Metroid Prime 3 delivers.

 

[ErnstH]

The answer to your question is Yes, it does. Every review of Metroid to date has stated that it is by far the best FPS controls of any console game, ever. It very nearly approaches keyboard and mouse.

I was under the impression that UT3 PS3 can be played with mouse and keyboard.

So no.

 

[darkblu]

My console trilogy is complete. I have an XB360, PS3, and Wii now. I just unboxed it and played it today for the very first time. I got it primarily for my son, who is too young really to use the controller on the XB360/PS3, but I did notice he liked waving the six axis around.

My conclusion? WiiFans, you are not going to like it.

Why the hell do people like this thing? In no way does it match the hype.

well, demo, people could try to explain it to you, but first, are you really searching for answers, or are you just dissing? 'cause the explanation could be lengthy and i'd rather not bother if you did not actually care to enrich your gaming experience with a new console paradigm. neither do i feel like fencing over consoles, especially such which need no defence.

 

[Asher]

Purely from the point of a gamer (you may call me "hardcore", I guess), I'm with you, DemoCoder.

I've all three systems as well, and the Wii is the one I'm most disappointed with, by far. I appreciate the potential Wii-mote like controls have, but no games have accurately or adequately utilized them (and I do think it's a hardware limitation). I'm just not having fun with it. I've got a bunch of games: Mario Party 8, Wario Ware, Trauma Center, Zelda, Resident Evil Wii edition. Zelda was the only enjoyable one out of them, but is not really a Wii game.

By contrast, I've got a pile of Xbox 360 games I own that I love playing but still need to finish (Forza 2, Bioshock, Guitar Hero II are incomplete right now), but the list if upcoming games is pretty insane. To a lesser extent, the PS3 is better than the Wii for me simply for its multimedia features. As a bluray/DVD player and media streamer, it's awesome. I think some games coming are pretty sweet, too.

But for me, it's hard for me to find something on the Wii done as I would like it. The "pointing" action of the Wiimote is almost comically inaccurate (and it's not just my setup). I know most people just get used to it and compensate automatically, but that's absurd to me -- shouldn't have to do that. The Wii's software interface is simply awful, the "channels". It takes an amazingly long time to load the "Weather channel" -- why? The whole thing is half-assed, there's no organization...games are mixed in with webbrowsers are mixed in with video trailers are mixed in with shopping links. This is 2007...why is it that GUIs from the 1980s are more user friendly?

When it comes down to it, the games on the Wii leave a LOT to be desired (I even have my doubts about Metroid Prime 3, it just doesn't seem to excite me at all), the software leaves even more to be desired, the controller is pretty rough and unrefined (and therefore frustrating), and, of course, it simply looks like ass on my 42" HDTV.

At the same time, I can see why it sells so well to the mass market (and similarly, why Wii games sell so poorly). The Wii is a bit of an anomaly in the market. I'm not even sure we should be comparing it to the 360 and PS3 in terms of game markets, just like we don't compare Tiger Electronics handheld sales to the DS or PSP.

 

[Natoma]

I was under the impression that UT3 PS3 can be played with mouse and keyboard.

So no.

Keyboard and mouse are the default control scheme of the PS3? Gee, that's a surprise.

Here's a hint ErnstH. Use your head, and keep the rolleye to yourself. Otherwise you look foolish.

 

[nelg]

I agree with all the points that Demo made. I tried MOH on the Wii, after 5 minutes I gave up.

 

[Tim Murray]

I am posting in this Wii hate thread!

I agree with DC--it doesn't match the hype at all. It's a con perpetrated on the gaming community, in large part through the perception that someone talking about the Wii's flaws is only doing so because he hates Nintendo. Or that you can't compare the Wii to other gaming consoles because it's got less powerful hardware (as if that's a good thing) or has a different kind of controller (that's a comparison left for games, not the console).

It's not a paradigm shift if the new paradigm is worse than the old one--hooray, we can replace that quest for better graphics with gimmicky control schemes that get old in ten minutes!

 

[Natoma]

There are some really high quality titles on the Wii to date, some of which are ports to be sure. And there are games that have issues with controls. Well, considering no gaming console in history has ever used this control before, it's not shocking that some developers are having issues with it, or underwhelming us with their offerings.

That said, the latest games that have been previewed, like MP3, Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Manhunt 2, Zack & Wiki, Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution, RE Umbrella Chronicles, Ghost Squad, etc have boasted super-tight and intuitive controls. They really show what the Wii-mote can do whereas the first gen games on Wii were kind of hit and miss in the graphics and the control department.

That said, at the end of the day, it comes down to marketshare. Devs won't have any choice but to put their top games on the Wii as long as the current sales trends continue. 360 is thus far trending to not sell much more than Xbox 1, PS3 is in the crapper sales wise as long as their price is north of $300, and the Wii is outselling both on a month to month basis by at least 4-1 worldwide these days.

It basic economics here.

 

[AlphaWolf]

That said, at the end of the day, it comes down to marketshare. Devs won't have any choice but to put their top games on the Wii as long as the current sales trends continue. 360 is thus far trending to not sell much more than Xbox 1, PS3 is in the crapper sales wise as long as their price is north of $300, and the Wii is outselling both on a month to month basis by at least 4-1 worldwide these days.

It basic economics here.

So marketshare guarantees that the wii will get some half assed AAA ports? Great, let me rush out and buy one. And the Wii has yet to prove that it can sell games, I'll admit thats a bit of a catch 22, but until some 3rd party developers get significant success on a wii title, I don't think they will be lining up to produce wii games, at least not as the main target console.

 

[sevanig]

I have also been thinking of completing my collection of next get consoles and getting a wii, it will be primarily be used by my 5 yr old nephew and possibly my mum and dad.

But boys being boys my nephew absolutely loves cars and cars exploding.
I cant tear him away from Motorstorm, he also loves Super Rub-a-dub (main reason I considered the wii, along with the new mario)

So at this time there is no point for me to get a wii, perhaps when the catalog of AAA games grows instead of half assed ports...

For the time being I get to play it at my friends house, when we are over, having a few beers...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

That said, at the end of the day, it comes down to marketshare. Devs won't have any choice but to put their top games on the Wii as long as the current sales trends continue.

It basic economics here.

They'll have a choice and likely Wii will never see highest budget 3rd party games on their system. The sales are not quaranteed to be excess of what they'll get on the hardcore systems and the last gen tech makes it harder to port these games. Wii's support will grow for sure, but you expecting all 3rd parties to just jump ship is not as much a basic economics, but maybe wishful thinking. It ain't happening.

 

[Acert93]

Everything you've stated, Metroid Prime 3 delivers.

I think the real "test" for the Wii will be how well the first batch of big titles play, like Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3 etc. If you judged any system by what was available at launch, I don't think any of them would be worth buying. Perfect example is the DS. Took a while to come into it's own, but now it's fantastic.

Unfortunately it seems you picked the three gimmickiest games on which to base your first impression of the system on.. I wouldn't judge it myself until I'd tried some REAL games.

Metroid's out soon. Mario Galaxy will be another big-hitter of course.

This is just me, but the "always future" talk bugs me, especially when a console is built around a specific experience. Contrast the PS3 supported BluRay out of the box, online, HD graphics, wireless and motion sensing out of the box. Certainly, not every element of the PS3 was exploited to its fulness at launch, but they were utilized. Further, the PS3 doesn't live and die by any feature and functionality.

The Wii singularly revolves around the Wiimote. (Ok, some would argue the VC, but that is another debate).

Seeing as the Wiimote is the essense and focus of the Wii experience, the fact sooo many games suck with it is disturbing.

Conceptually, I think a new controller needs to do one of two things.

1.) Offer all the same functionality of old controllers, but add new layers of interactivity to the foundation to open up new dynamics in the current, refined and tried&true control schemes.

Or...

2.) Offer such a revolutionary new paradigm that (a) it opens a host of new, superior, and intuitive mechanics that create totally new genres and ways to approach game design and (b) be a lateral move in regards to most genres (sports, racing, fighting, FPS, etc).

The Wiimote takes the 2nd approach. The problem is that

(a) Most of the new mechanics are really gimmicky and are not opening up many new gameplay designs. Same game ideas, in general, just a different way to interact with them.

(b) The Wiimote is a step back in most genres in regards to actual user input and control. It took stuff away from developers of "tried&true" designs, but didn't offer enough new to easily resolve the disparity.

An example of a good Wii game that demonstrates my examples is Madden. First, it is a good game. Second, you aren't gonna change the game of football just because it is on the Wii. You still need to run, pass, jump, tackle, etc. There is no way around having these commands. So users must be able to input commands, some way, to get the desired results.

The problem is that Madden replaces Square, Circle, X, Triangle, etc with analogous motions. Sure, they motions are intended to represent the intended result, but you end up with dozens of inputs. The real problem, from a football gamers perspective, is the latency between a motion and more importantly the accuracy. I hit A and hold a trigger and the game immediately responds to the exact command I wanted, every time.

I can see the appeal of Madden on the Wii to some gamers; but for the established market of Madden consumers this is a big step back in terms of gameplay. The Wiimote is not adding anything new to the game. It is the same game, just less accurate and less responsive. And when you step back, and look at the total package, the limitations of the Wii platform actually resulted in a number of great new additions (like branching animation) not coming to the Wii.

So the apex of Wii gaming, the control, is a detrimiment to Madden from a Madden consumer's perspective (in most cases), and the Wii's short comings of the platform hold it back in other areas.

I am not saying we won't ever see games with superior input to gamepads. We will--and Metroid could be one of those titles.

The question is: how many will there be? And how many great games due on the Wii because it cannot be accurate mapped to the same degree of quality as a traditional controller?

It isn't all bad though. It is giving developers new ideas to play with. And even take the Madden example, in gameplay it is subpar, but not all football fans are fans of hitting a lot of buttons. The Wiimote can be, depending on the person, more accessible and intuitive. So the Wii opens the doors to some gamers who would pass on Madden 360/PS3.

Overlooking accessibility and intuitive input for the uninitiated gamer is not something to overlook. It doesn't make them better games, but it does make them appeal to non-gamers and gamers who, for whatever reason, may not have been inclined to the old design paradigms.

For good or bad, the Wii also forces an "exclusive" approach. This helps Nintendo differentiate itself, as well as obtain unique content. On the other hand it has resulted in the current situation where a lot of multiplatform next gen games -- good games, lest anyone argue otherwise -- just cannot be ported to the Wii. Worse, going to the Wii creates a nightmare for control remapping and design.

I don't think it surprises anyone that the Wii, a Nintendo product, takes the approach of: Develop for us exclusively, or your game isn't going to work very well on our platform.

Which goes back to my initial point: People keep pointing to future games (because, really, not many Wii games make great use of the Wiimote), yet the arguement for the Wiimote is that it should be a lateral move for exhisting titles and a verticle move for newer concepts and implimentations -- accessible, intuitive, and more interactive.

I fully expect Metroid and Mario to do this. But if your console hinges on a controller, this really needs to filter down to everyone... or they won't make money. People can blame developers all they want, but Nintendo deserves a fair share of blame. The GCN was dead in the water for a very long time so there was no reason for such a late Wii release, the Wii dev environment was limited for a very long time, and the Wiimote itself doesn't cater to a lot of good, successful, and proven game designs. And from a market perspective, Nintendo went a route that cut itself off from multiplatform development, a typical Nintendo move, which has been a major issue for publisher profits.

So as much as we can look forward to the killer Nintendo 1st party software that really innovates in the control sector, Nintendo also deserves a fair share of blame for all the crappy games on the market for the Wii.

I don't think it is fair to sing the praises of the Wii without some equally balanced criticism. Right now Nintendo has a lot to prove in regards to the Wiimote as a long term solution; it also needs to prove that publishers -- the evil, porting, low quality guys they are -- can make money on their platform. Its not like every EA's games are the pinnacle of quality on every platform, but they still make money. We can excuse away the quality issues, but the reality is people have a hard time making money on Nintendo's platforms. Maybe Nintendo is that much better... but total market share doesn't indicate everyone agrees with that.

Demo and I also agree strongly about Nintendo's marketing--it is absolutely fabulous. I haven't found a single kiosk yet; instead displays are littered with marketing material of people, gasp, having fun. Kids, moms and dads, grandparents, college kids, etc. Normal folks, waving the Wiimote around, laughing.

It is the quintessential essense of gaming: Games are Fun.

Nintendo has done a lot right. I think they have a solid fall lineup, although I don't think exiting 2007 they will be the market leader (although may regain that status in 2008 depending on price drops). The Wii is a success and at 4.2 attach rate and the Wii being profitable hardware that Nintendo, my favorite gaming company, is on firm financial ground and will live on. But they have a lot of hurdles... especially to attract longtime fans, like myself, to the Wii platform.

Metroid 3 having online gameplay would have gone a long way for that. I can get great controls on the PC for an FPS (and a lot of console shooters have good gamepad controls these days, like Gears of War and Bioshock, mainly because devs don't treat gamepad shooters the same way as twitchy PC shooters), but for replay value and social gaming I wanted online multiplayer. But this is another example, to me, of how everything revolves around the Wiimote and a lot of stuff takes a back seat. Online gaming may not be for everyone, but it (and graphics, and longevity, interaction, story, etc) should not be ignored, either.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Have there been any games yet that have 1:1 motion mapping? I thought the upcoming boxing game was supposed to manage that. For me, that's what I was expecting from Wii as the most intuitive input method possible, and the experience with WiiSports was a sursprising let-down. If Wii is limited to gesture recognition instead of direct object positioning, then its not what it should have been.

And I take exception to FPS pointers, because that's not IMO the new innovative experience. I'm wanting to control the characters as extensions of my movement, rather than control a camera or pointer. FPS'es are a 'soft' innovation

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Seeing as the Wiimote is the essense and focus of the Wii experience, the fact sooo many games suck with it is disturbing.

And we all know the reasons behind that right? Yes alot of games suck because those games have been made in half a day time for 50 cents because devs needed something out when wii sales kept going and they didnt bother with making something decent. There are some decent to good games out there and there are a whole lot coming apparently. I think its to early to fairly judge the wii remote yet, people wernt complaining about x360 either when it came out with only xbox1+ gfx instead of real next gen. It just takes some time, something we already knew would happen.

Atleast wait untill the end of the year when there are a bunch of games out that are actually designed for wii ground up. If you still dont like the controlls after that then you can make a point.

 

[ErnstH]

Keyboard and mouse are the default control scheme of the PS3? Gee, that's a surprise.

Here's a hint ErnstH. Use your head, and keep the rolleye to yourself. Otherwise you look foolish.

It's not relevant what the default control scheme is. People playing competetively will choose the best control scheme available. Your quote implied that Metroid Prime with WiiMote had the best FPS control scheme. I simply disagree. Even your quote said "It very nearly approaches keyboard and mouse.".

 

[Acert93]

And we all know the reasons behind that right? Yes alot of games suck because those games have been made in half a day time for 50 cents because devs needed something out when wii sales kept going and they didnt bother with making something decent.

No, there are a lot of reasons. The fact the issue is being pushed off exclusively on developers isn't remotely fair.

Why weren't Wii dev kits out sooner?

Why Did Nintendo design a Wiimote that innovated without compromising so many functional input schemes from indevelopment games?

I think Nintendo does bear some of the burden due to their hardware strategy -- which limits quality cross platform development -- and late development kits. Their hardware design, as well, also forced developers under tight deadlines to come up with radical solutions because a decades work of refinements and tweaks were tossed out the window.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around, not just to devs/publishers. As a consumer I don't really care. I want to be confident in the products I buy. But that is just one opinion, mine

I think its to early to fairly judge the wii remote yet, people wernt complaining about x360 either when it came out with only xbox1+ gfx instead of real next gen.

No, people were. Some still are.

But that isn't the point. The Xbox 360 (and PS3) don't break tried&true game designs. And their focus isn't so narrow. HD, graphics, sound, wireless, online gaming, media and demo downloads, gamer scores, movies, media centers/extenders, etc.

Its not like MS and Sony sold their consoles only on graphics or that their consoles sole purpose was to re-invent gaming design. Their message was, "The games you like, coming into the next gen. Bigger and better in everything".

For me, and most people, the Wii is about the Wiimote. That is Nintendo's marketing and development emphasis.

Good or Bad, that is what it is. So of course we are going to look at the first 9 months and assess, "How does it do?" If after 9 months only a handful of games are good -- and a LOT are broken and gimmicky -- you do have to ask, "Will this get better? How much so?"

If Nintendo wants to take the industry a radically different direction, they also have to be the ones taking it that direction. The fact they, themselves, have so little to show on the Wii after 9 months to validate it as both a unique input device AS WELL as subdueing concerns that traditional, quality, control and input designs can work REALLY well on Wii.

It may happen, don't get me wrong. It just isn't here yet.

Atleast wait untill the end of the year when there are a bunch of games out that are actually designed for wii ground up. If you still dont like the controlls after that then you can make a point.

I can understand the, "Better stuff is coming". I can appreciate that. I said essentially the same with the 360 and PS3, with the opinion that the "ground up" games in late 2007 and mostly in 2008 will look substantially better than the rushed products around launch. BUT, that didn't stop the early games from being a significant improvement, as well as showing a lot of potential. I didn't hop into PGR3 and say in 2005, "Well, it isn't as nice as PGR1". No! I said, "Whoa! What an upgrade! I am excited about what they do in 2007!"

Personally, I think the Wiimote has a bit of potential. I said that way back in 2005. I still hold to that -- the Metroid controls in recent videos look very good (although it is party software... but gamepads without good software design with adhesion, magnatism, autoaim, etc suck too). But I did think that totally dumping a proven input framework that was successful, well understood, and clearly the industry standard for consumers and developers was unwise.

I think there could have been better design compromises with the Wiimote that would have alleviated some of the developer porting issues you note.

 

[fearsomepirate]

The sales are not quaranteed to be excess of what they'll get on the hardcore systems and the last gen tech makes it harder to port these games.

Being the market leader means you get to be the lead platform instead of the port target. If I recall correctly, PS2 -> Xbox ports were far more common than the other direction, and N64 -> PS1 ports were extremely scarce. Everyone seems to be expecting that no matter how much Wii sales might grow, it'll never be the lead platform for a major game. Why? 360 and PS3 aren't making many publishers rich, because if your game doesn't go platinum, you don't make money. As far as I know, quite a few publishers have lost both marketshare and revenue on 360. Also, look at how many 3rd party exclusives for Wii are either out or on their way--it's more than Cube had at this time.

Why Did Nintendo design a Wiimote that innovated without compromising so many functional input schemes from indevelopment games?

If you read the interviews, it was purely a market-driven decision. Buttons were intimidating, so they left a few of them off in the hopes of attracting people normally put off by a gamepad. I think we can look at the Wii remote as a prime example of what happens when marketing takes precedence over engineering.

And seriously, how come no one is talking about Godfather or Scarface? The upcoming Brothers in Arms game, a port of the Xbox games, also sounds like it's had a lot of work put into it as well. In a recent interview, a developer said they'd written custom shaders and brought in a guy with an MS in mouse control from MIT to work on the input. I think that's an important title to watch. It remains to see if the end result matches the hype, but it sounds a lot more promising than "We ported this PSP game."

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Because some rather focus on the games that dont work instead of looking at the games that do work.