MY ARGUMENT: The real battle is between PS3 and 360, Wii is not included

[Magnum PI]

We have figures for the budget of a GC title.
A Wii is an overclocked GC with more memory and a wii-mote.
Therefore we have a fair idea of the budget of a Wii title.

We have figures for xbox360 and PS3 and we know it is much more.

So yes i can say "without any doubt".

GC wasn't that hard to develop for compared to PS2. and Wii is very close to GC, so developpers won't have to learn again..
It sure helps to have quality tools like XNA. Anyway despite this, X360 is still a complex piece of hardware to program for, with it's three cores.. And the PS3 is even more complex and without XNA... Makings games that exploits nicely these cores can only be complex.

And obviously assets for a last gen game (yes Wii is essentially a last gen console) needs much less work.

Of course i'm talking about the bulk of games, not counting special cases like mah-jong..

 

[myzhi]

I think it's going to come down to the X360 and PS3. The problem with all Nintendo systems have always been the lack 3rd party support since the SNES. The X360 and PS3 will have plenty just due tot he fact that it's way more easier to port from one to the other given both are relatively same in power. Right now, Wii 3rd party games are mostly ports of PS2 / GC / Xbox games. What will happen when people move away from making PS2 / GC / Xbox games. Will 3rd parties still pony up money to make games for possibly the smallest markestshare console. Doubtful. I can see owning a Nintendo system means getting their games mostly, once again.

 

[fulcizombie]

Interesting thing I saw this morning while out shopping was watching an entire shipment of 10 Wii's fly off the shelf in about a half hour while the shipment of 2 PS3's just sat there. People are buying into the hype of the Wii and they are selling.

Your post history makes it very hard to take your "anecdotal" evidense seriously.Plus i don't believe that the ps3(with so few units available) would "sat there".

 

[Readykilowatt]

If the Wii becomes the dominant platform this gen, third party developers will inevitably shift their focus away from the Xbox 360 and the PS3. Square-Enix in particular is not going to ignore the dominant platform (see DS) and if Final Fantasy jumps ship, virtually every other major franchise will follow. As I've said before, if the Wii takes off, Sony's in a world of hurt.

 

[fulcizombie]

I have been reading some Wii owners stories about thanksgiving. I guess they could be lying but a lot of people were telling the same story about the Wii sports sucking in the non gamers. People who either disliked games or intimidated by complex controllers were really getting in to the Wii sports game especially bowling. Stories of Wii onwers playing games with thier parents and even grandparents for the first time ever. Wives and girlfriends really getting into the games and making a Mii. If these stories are the norm then nintendo may of really struck gold like they did with the DS.

Nintendo fans sure know how to exxagerate things and present them on the internet.I don't expect many "wives and girlfriends and ...grandparents" giving a shit about wii or standing in front of a tv set waving the remote controls and "having fun".They might have done it for a few minutes on a celebration day(if that,which i really doubt) but i don't see them rushing to give nintendo 250$.

I'll wait to see what the wii will be selling in a year from nowand how 3rd party games will perform in it(cause that's what all these sales thread really come down do,more sales=more 3rd party support0 before coming into any consclusion.

 

[fulcizombie]

If the Wii becomes the dominant platform this gen, third party developers will inevitably shift their focus away from the Xbox 360 and the PS3. Square-Enix in particular is not going to ignore the dominant platform (see DS) and if Final Fantasy jumps ship, virtually every other major franchise will follow. As I've said before, if the Wii takes off, Sony's in a world of hurt.

That would require for 3rd party games to actually sell well on the wii.

 

[Readykilowatt]

That would require for 3rd party games to actually sell well on the wii.

You make it sound like it's impossible. Be careful what you say about the Wii. I've seen too many people, incuding prominent people at Sony, "eat tonnes of crow" because of the DS.

 

[fulcizombie]

You make it sound like it's impossible. Be careful what you say about the Wii. I've seen too many people, incuding prominent people at Sony, "eat tonnes of crow" because of the DS.

What??Even the DS with all its success and nintendo's heritage in the handheld market doesn't have that many big 3rd party games and that's with a competitor(PSP) that has horrible software sales.Consider that the wii will go up against consoles that will have extremely good sales for 3rd party games.If all these moms and girlfriends and grandparents start buyning wiis like crazy i doubt that they will be buying that many games for it.As for hardcore gamers i bet that they will buy most of their games for the ps3/xbox360 with the occasional nintendo game for the wii thrown in.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The PS2 wasn't well established no more than the 360 is now. How many PS2 were moved during those 22 million of the xbox, 80-85 million? .

The PS2 had a 24,5 million lead when the Xbox launched in 2001, and they were the superior consolewar winner last gen, with a userbase well over 100 million. They were ALOT more established than the X360 is now.

If the wii is able to move 4 million by 2006 it will have gained 40% of what the 360 sold in 13 months in a matter of 6 weeks. If that happens I think that proof enough that Gfx aren't the primary concern of console gamers.

Anything sells out at launch. The only reason that the wii is getting so good sales compared to the X360 launch is because
A: The wii is avaliable, there is millions of them, they can actually manufacture it at a decent rate (ofcourse you can, its a OC'ed Gamecube )
B: Its half the price of the x360.

 

[fulcizombie]

I never made such a point.



The PS2 wasn't well established no more than the 360 is now. How many PS2 were moved during those 22 million of the xbox, 80-85 million? If the wii is able to move 4 million by 2006 it will have gained 40% of what the 360 sold in 13 months in a matter of 6 weeks. If that happens I think that proof enough that Gfx aren't the primary concern of console gamers.

First of all the ps2 has nothing to do with the wii.The ps2 was the same generation with the xbox.Yes it was graphically inferior but not by that much,it was competitive on the graphics' department UNLIKE the wii.People who are using the ps2 as a point for their arguement are more dellusional than the people who are using the DS.

Anyway what would all these nintendo fans ,that recently found out that they don't care about graphics anymore(they did a few years back,oh they were the first to start a graphics' argumement),propose??That MS and Sony should stop releasing more powerfull consoles and stick to xbox levels forever??Hell,the wii isn't even that cheap(not much cheaper than a core 360) to somehow excuse its chipset.

The funny thing is that most nintendo fans were trying to prove that ATI would provide nintendo some serious graphical horsepower since nintendo"had paid the same with MS".That was before nintendo fans realised(after the dogma was issued by nintendo) that "graphics don't matter".

 

[Corwin_B]

The funny thing is that most nintendo fans were trying to prove that ATI would provide nintendo some serious graphical horsepower since nintendo"had paid the same with MS".That was before nintendo fans realised(after the dogma was issued by nintendo) that "graphics don't matter".

Just about the same as XBox fans going from "Power is everything" to "Well, DVD9 is ok and not having the top most powerful console is ok, it's games that count", or Sony fans going the other way around (from "All that matters is the games" to "power is everything" in the space of one generation). Or Sony fanb0ys going from "Wiimote is gimmicky" to "Who needs rumble, Sixasis motion sensing is the best thing since Sony Bredslicer(TM) !".

Such posts irk me a lot, because I hate people focusing on the stupidity and hypocrisy of a certain brand of fanb0ys and trying to tie it to some failure of the company without acknowledging that, well, stupidity and hypocrisy are the name of the game when it comes to fanb0yism of any brand. Yes, Nintendo fans will say the darnest things to score a point in an Intertrons discussion. Shocking. Did you know that Sony and MS fanb0ys would do exactly the same ? It's not a problem with Sony, MS or Nintendo, just a simple application of John's Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

BTW, Nintendo's argument is not that "graphics don't matter" or such over-simplification done by rabid clueless Nintendo fanb0ys or rabid clueless Nintendo-haters, but that graphics have reached a point of decreasing returns were the power of the Wii will allow them to do what they want. I happen to disagree, but it's not like they are calling to a return to the good old VCS2600 days...

 

[Corwin_B]

The only reason that the wii is getting so good sales compared to the X360 launch is because
A: The wii is avaliable, there is millions of them, they can actually manufacture it at a decent rate (ofcourse you can, its a OC'ed Gamecube )
B: Its half the price of the x360.

Sounds almost like they wanted it that way... Incredible !

 

[Magnum PI]

Wii 3rd party games are mostly ports of PS2 / GC / Xbox games.

Without a motive decreting a multiplateform is a port on Wii is arbitrary and biased.
First we have to know the primary development plateform. I'm not in the industry and i don't know about development pratices, maybe games could be developped on a different paradigm than primary development plateform then ports ? Could people with the knowledge share it with us ?

Then we have to agree on what is a port and what is not. Because a port suggests the title is just converted from one plateform to another.

When there is a lot of changes between the version on the primary development plateform and the wii version, it's not a port. Like Madden NFL 07.. is it just a port ? From the reviews i read, I tend to think it's more than that.

AFAIK, of the 3rd party available or soon available for Wii these one are exclusives so aren't ports:

* tony hawk's downhill jam
* trauma center second edition
* elebits
* red steel
* super monkey ball : banana blitz
* gt pro series

For the other i don't know.. do you ?

If they are GC ports are their really ports in the spirit ? Development kits were basically GCs with a wiimote until recently so developpers had no choice but to develop on GC first.

 

[London Geezer]

No kidding... ;-) so when are you graduating ? Just so we can prepare ourselves psychologically, ya know.

I'm already grad. I'm doing a post-grad, and i should be qualified in 2 years if i'm good, 3 if i'm really slow. Working at the same time so it's tough.
My plan is to work for one of the big 3 in a senior-ish position by the time PS4 launches. Preferably Sony cause they have beautiful offices in Soho here in London
Not sure where MS or Ninty's offices are to be honest.

If you're looking for internship... can you apply to Sony and check if the entire marketing department has gone on leave since early this year ?

Well having experienced how long it takes them to actually give signs of life, i wouldn't be surprised if they're all away... But they should get back to me "soon". Not holding my breath, I think we all know what Sony means for "soon" anyway

 

[fulcizombie]

Just about the same as XBox fans going from "Power is everything" to "Well, DVD9 is ok and not having the top most powerful console is ok, it's games that count", or Sony fans going the other way around (from "All that matters is the games" to "power is everything" in the space of one generation). Or Sony fanb0ys going from "Wiimote is gimmicky" to "Who needs rumble, Sixasis motion sensing is the best thing since Sony Bredslicer(TM) !".

Such posts irk me a lot, because I hate people focusing on the stupidity and hypocrisy of a certain brand of fanb0ys and trying to tie it to some failure of the company without acknowledging that, well, stupidity and hypocrisy are the name of the game when it comes to fanb0yism of any brand. Yes, Nintendo fans will say the darnest things to score a point in an Intertrons discussion. Shocking. Did you know that Sony and MS fanb0ys would do exactly the same ? It's not a problem with Sony, MS or Nintendo, just a simple application of John's Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

BTW, Nintendo's argument is not that "graphics don't matter" or such over-simplification done by rabid clueless Nintendo fanb0ys or rabid clueless Nintendo-haters, but that graphics have reached a point of decreasing returns were the power of the Wii will allow them to do what they want. I happen to disagree, but it's not like they are calling to a return to the good old VCS2600 days...

No it's not the same.The xbox and sony fans are nowhere near as bad.I really doubt that any other company could get away with what nintendo is offering and charging for it.

I haven't seen one sony fan claiming that sixaxxis is something amasing.They range from "worthless" to "O.K".I haven't seen any xbox fan claiming that console power isn't important.In fact there is still no "actual"proof about which of the 2 (ps3 ,xbox360) is actually more powerful.

I doubt that MS and sony fans would eat up a 250$ console with sub-xbox1 looking games and would try to reinvent the wheel like nintendo fans do.Also the way the word "fun" is used by nintendo fans is really disgusting.The fact that it's such a vague term gives them the opportunity to use this as exclusive to amateurish looking C- grade trash(like red steel or wii sports).Whatever looks ancient and is on a nintendo console is "fun".Now how can you argue with that??

 

[assen]

Anyway despite this, X360 is still a complex piece of hardware to program for, with it's three cores.. And the PS3 is even more complex and without XNA... Makings games that exploits nicely these cores can only be complex.

And obviously assets for a last gen game (yes Wii is essentially a last gen console) needs much less work.

But you don't need to exploit the three cores, or to produce next-gen assets, if you're holding the 360 title to the same low standards that the Wii title will be against. Or you're willing to argue that gameplay >> graphics for Wii, but suddenly graphics >> gameplay for the 360? That only Gears-loving graphics whores will ever own the 360?

The Wii has an inherent advantage, but it's in the controller (and in the current "my wife/grandma/cat luvs the Wii, and she's not a gamer" hype), not in the development costs.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

friend: it's so cool and neat, did you see the controllor.
me: did you see the low res textrues.
friend: and you can download any game ever made and play it.
me: like we did back in 1998 on your mom's pc and got bored with each game in 3 minutes.
friend: I don't even play games anymore and i want one.
me: 4 year old silicon at modern prices.
friend: whats the matter with you.
me: Im a graphics whore. please excuse me.

Nothing against WII its just not for me.

And thats why the Wii probably has a big chance of atleast selling alot more than GC. 90% of the people who buy a console probably dont give a shit how the gfx look.

Will nintendo win? dont know. They probably have a decent change if they manage to make some wii titels with the impact that BrainTraining and Nintendogs had for the DS. If they manage to get to the non gamers they have alot bigger market to explore than the x360 and ps3 that basically aim at people who are already gaming.

Atleast its a good thing that alot more 3rd party devs are spending time on Wii than with GC.

 

[fulcizombie]

And thats why the Wii probably has a big chance of atleast selling alot more than GC. 90% of the people who buy a console probably dont give a shit how the gfx look.

Will nintendo win? dont know. They probably have a decent change if they manage to make some wii titels with the impact that BrainTraining and Nintendogs had for the DS. If they manage to get to the non gamers they have alot bigger market to explore than the x360 and ps3 that basically aim at people who are already gaming.

Atleast its a good thing that alot more 3rd party devs are spending time on Wii than with GC.

If 90% of people who buy a console don't give a shit about graphics then these people will be more than fine with their playstation2 with its amasing line up of thousands of VERY CHEAP (at a budget price) games covering every genre.

I don't see the wii having better 3rd party support than what the GC had initially.The GC had heavyweights like the entire RE series exclusive plus things like MGS1-remake(which had huge initial hype),when all the wii has is some 3rd rate western exclusive games
and some shitty ports.

 

[Magnum PI]

But you don't need to exploit the three cores, or to produce next-gen assets, if you're holding the 360 title to the same low standards that the Wii title will be against.

You have to because your competition is not wii titles, its other xbox360 titles.
If you're releasing a great FPS with Wii-level on Xbox 360, you'll be subject of jokes by X360 owners. And you'll sell zilch.

If you're releasing a great FPS with Wii-level graphics on Wii, maybe X360 owner will laugh at you too, but you'll sell your title to Wii owners.

The Wii has an inherent advantage, but it's in the controller (and in the current "my wife/grandma/cat luvs the Wii, and she's not a gamer" hype), not in the development costs.

AFAIK you didn't prove the lack of weight of the development costs in the Wii model.

I never said it was only the one factor or the major one, it's one among others.

 

[assen]

If you're releasing a great FPS with Wii-level on Xbox 360, you'll be subject of jokes by X360 owners. And you'll sell zilch.

But the real strength of the Wii is not FPSes, but quirky, innovative games - or so the core proponents claim. I'm not arguing that a Wii-level FPS has a chance on the 360, but that something like Guitar Hero, Katamari Damacy, Nintendogs can be produces equally cheap for the 360 and look similar to the Wii look, but it won't necessarily be compared to Gears etc.

Unless you claim that the only way to have quirky, innovative games is to wave your hands in the air - where we get to point B of my argument, that the Wii's advantage is the controller, not develoment costs.