MS's "secret weapon" against the PS3 (Arstechnica)
- Thread starter MobiusOne
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and that's saying something.... badum cssshh
Nandeyanen
no reason ... it is playful humor, please take it as such, thank you
I know. That line is a standard in jp standup comedy but I guess not all people understand
(I suppose this could also be a lesson in reading computer translations !)I know. That line is a standard in jp standup comedy but I guess not all people understand
it's all good.
Yeah, I tend to agree that it's likely a combination of both factors led to the current implementation. You also mentioned (and archie4oz confirmed) that PS3 uses a SI HDMI transmitter.. there may have been issues rolling that into the package too. I think it's only recently that nVidia have had their own HDMI/HDCP capability.
Cheers,
Dean
SDTV is a combination of two issues: different res, different aspect ratio. Games alwas need to adapt to a different aspect ratio, but not necessarily to a different res. Being flexible with the res is useful for more than just SDTV support, because HD resolutiones themselves are fragmented into 720p, 1080i and 1080p (and then you have these "optimizations").
You're probably right. And this is the third time I'll agree that a software solution would be fine.Fafalda said:
If all the upcoming games do the right thing there's nothing I can complain about. It just seems like scaling wasn't really considered in planning until very late in the process, and because of that there's a lot of egg on Sony's face that could have easily been avoided.
It really should just be part of TRC, and hardware or not, scaling support libs should have been supplied to developers asap IMO.
It was my understanding that most of the "scaling" on PS2 wasn't actual scaling but just slowing down the RAMDAC scanout to make lines with less pixels. That worked because it was just an analog signal. If you want to support digital outputs with predefined pixel counts, you can't do that anymore -- hence the issues with PS2 games playing on PS3; they are scaled now, unlike before, but with primitive point-sampling. All wrong?Fafalda said:
E.g. the RE4 title screen has been shown somewhere.
I'm not arguing that you can't scale in software. Done it myself. It just needs to work consistently.
Nick Laslett
Regular
I still see this a very trivial issue.
The way people talk about it you would think that you don't actually get a picture from the PS3 on some TV sets.
Sure a good built in scaler would be nice, but a good built in scaler in your TV would also be nice. I don't see why Sony should get all the blame.
Rendering games at 600 lines and expecting your scaler to hide the fact that they are not HD. Now that is something I think we should complain about.
If you want to get the best out of your Xbox360 or PS3, what you need is a decent display device.
Microsoft have done a brilliant thing putting the multi-purpose scaler in the Xbox360 and allowing VGA output. I appluad them for this. If this is a good enough differentiator for people to buy a Xbox360 over a PS3, good for them. No one is forcing you to buy a PS3 and if an Xbox360 due to it's scaler will look better on your TV, then maybe you should buy an Xbox360. In that context it is a better product.
It is always buyer beware, don't drop $600 on a product and then start complaining that it only displays in 480i on your TV. You should have done your research.
I'm still annoyed that my PS3 doesn't have the George Foreman grill function I was promised. I've seen many pictures and read many threads saying it had a grill feature, why is no-one complaining about that? Surely this is a more important issue than people with crappy TVs.
The way people talk about it you would think that you don't actually get a picture from the PS3 on some TV sets.
Sure a good built in scaler would be nice, but a good built in scaler in your TV would also be nice. I don't see why Sony should get all the blame.
Rendering games at 600 lines and expecting your scaler to hide the fact that they are not HD. Now that is something I think we should complain about.
If you want to get the best out of your Xbox360 or PS3, what you need is a decent display device.
Microsoft have done a brilliant thing putting the multi-purpose scaler in the Xbox360 and allowing VGA output. I appluad them for this. If this is a good enough differentiator for people to buy a Xbox360 over a PS3, good for them. No one is forcing you to buy a PS3 and if an Xbox360 due to it's scaler will look better on your TV, then maybe you should buy an Xbox360. In that context it is a better product.
It is always buyer beware, don't drop $600 on a product and then start complaining that it only displays in 480i on your TV. You should have done your research.
I'm still annoyed that my PS3 doesn't have the George Foreman grill function I was promised. I've seen many pictures and read many threads saying it had a grill feature, why is no-one complaining about that? Surely this is a more important issue than people with crappy TVs.
I think it's pointless for Sony to try and fix this. Sales are HDTVs are doubling every year, and the number of sets for which a builtin scaler provides a benefit will soon be an insignificant fraction.
This only affects people with setups like the following:
1) old HD set with no builtin scalar
2) set can't accept 720p
3) no A/V receiver with builtin scalar
So, we have a so-called "early adopter" of HDTV, someone who buys the newest tech, but who happens to stick with an old set AND who does not own a Dolby/DTS/THX AV receiver with a video switcher/scaler. This is a really shitty setup for a videophile early adopter to have, since the older sets also tended to have a limited number of component inputs too.
Let's leave out the fact that every el-cheapo CRT HD set I've looked at on BestBuy that did not accept 720p turned out to be "HD Ready" with crappy native resolution resolving power, so it is somewhat debatable that scaling up to 1080i provides a benefit for a set that only has 800 lines of resolution and worse horizontal resolution.
Even the old FD WEGA Trinitron can scale 720p up to 1080i. And modern cheapo CRT sets sold by LG and Samsung sport HDMI, Faroudja scalers, 3:2 pulldown, et al, and pretty much all the digital processing that the flat panel models have.
From my perspective, a native scaler just to support these older legacy sets, even if it costs $1 per unit, = $75 million over the lifetime of the PS3 for Sony, or $750 million if its $10 cost. Is it worth it to support the handful of people who can drop $1000 on a game console but can't be bothered to trash an old clunky analog era set? If Sony looses these customers to the XB360 or Wii, they'll lose less than the cost of shoehorning in the scaler chip.
A "secret weapon" which targets a niche and ever shrinking marketshare is kinda silly. What's next? MS offers "quadraphonic" outputs? How about a builtin "channel 3 RF modulator" for those whose TVs don't have S-Video/Composite/Component/etc inputs? Secret weapon indeed.
The only real weapon any console has IMHO is software and content. MS will have to maintain a lock on developers if it wants to continue its reign. Too many people assume one can order consoles by HW power/features alone. Sony's biggest problem is software platform and delivery. They're way behind MS on online architecture, and MS has a decade of software tool vending behind them.
However, Apple proved if you're determined, you can not only do a good job, you can kick MS's ass in software.
This only affects people with setups like the following:
1) old HD set with no builtin scalar
2) set can't accept 720p
3) no A/V receiver with builtin scalar
So, we have a so-called "early adopter" of HDTV, someone who buys the newest tech, but who happens to stick with an old set AND who does not own a Dolby/DTS/THX AV receiver with a video switcher/scaler. This is a really shitty setup for a videophile early adopter to have, since the older sets also tended to have a limited number of component inputs too.
Let's leave out the fact that every el-cheapo CRT HD set I've looked at on BestBuy that did not accept 720p turned out to be "HD Ready" with crappy native resolution resolving power, so it is somewhat debatable that scaling up to 1080i provides a benefit for a set that only has 800 lines of resolution and worse horizontal resolution.
Even the old FD WEGA Trinitron can scale 720p up to 1080i. And modern cheapo CRT sets sold by LG and Samsung sport HDMI, Faroudja scalers, 3:2 pulldown, et al, and pretty much all the digital processing that the flat panel models have.
From my perspective, a native scaler just to support these older legacy sets, even if it costs $1 per unit, = $75 million over the lifetime of the PS3 for Sony, or $750 million if its $10 cost. Is it worth it to support the handful of people who can drop $1000 on a game console but can't be bothered to trash an old clunky analog era set? If Sony looses these customers to the XB360 or Wii, they'll lose less than the cost of shoehorning in the scaler chip.
A "secret weapon" which targets a niche and ever shrinking marketshare is kinda silly. What's next? MS offers "quadraphonic" outputs? How about a builtin "channel 3 RF modulator" for those whose TVs don't have S-Video/Composite/Component/etc inputs? Secret weapon indeed.
The only real weapon any console has IMHO is software and content. MS will have to maintain a lock on developers if it wants to continue its reign. Too many people assume one can order consoles by HW power/features alone. Sony's biggest problem is software platform and delivery. They're way behind MS on online architecture, and MS has a decade of software tool vending behind them.
However, Apple proved if you're determined, you can not only do a good job, you can kick MS's ass in software.
Anyone noticed this ;
Well, at the moment, both formats are potentially "the next betamax". It's a bit weird that he would say that in public though.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
Obviously it was targeted at Sony, although it still applies to HD DVD just as much.
"The way people talk about it you would think that you don't actually get a picture from the PS3 on some TV sets."
Well for a lot of HDTV owners you'll spend 600$ on the PS3 hook it up to your 1080I only HDTV and be playing resistance in 480P. Why is Sony making you pay more for less? This is a big deal and Sony should not be defended for this.
Well for a lot of HDTV owners you'll spend 600$ on the PS3 hook it up to your 1080I only HDTV and be playing resistance in 480P. Why is Sony making you pay more for less? This is a big deal and Sony should not be defended for this.
Those borked 1080i-only pseudo-"HDTVs" can't resolve much more than 480 lines anyway. Playing in 480p isn't anything to complain about if you brought such a POS home.
You should request to get some free supersampling thrown in, instead of a resolution that goes beyond the capabities of the tube.
What gave you that idea? Completely incorrect.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
It's funny how many people are apologizing for this oversight. It's a major feature omission IMO. It certainly takes away from Sony's claim of being technologically superior when HD content can end up in 480p on a huge number of existing sets.
To make a claim like that, wouldn't we need to have some number or estimate of how many are affected by this? I might be ignorant to the situation in the US, but from what DemoCoder described further up, it seems like an exagerated issue, one that will resolve over time and is only really hitting either missinformed buyers or early adopters. If you have a link to estimates of how many are directly affected, I'd be happy to see it. Thanks.
"Those borked 1080i-only pseudo-"HDTVs" can't resolve much more than 480 lines anyway. Playing in 480p isn't anything to complain about if you brought such a POS home.
You should request to get some free supersampling thrown in, instead of a resolution that goes beyond the capabities of the tube."
Completely sad people are defending Sony for this. First off Sony has sold 1080i only HDTV's so they should know better than any console maker how users of their TV's may be effected.
Secondly nearly every HD output device has a scaler, HD cable boxes, HD Tivo's, upscaling DVD players, etc. why is the 600$ PS3 lacking this feature?
You should request to get some free supersampling thrown in, instead of a resolution that goes beyond the capabities of the tube."
Completely sad people are defending Sony for this. First off Sony has sold 1080i only HDTV's so they should know better than any console maker how users of their TV's may be effected.
Secondly nearly every HD output device has a scaler, HD cable boxes, HD Tivo's, upscaling DVD players, etc. why is the 600$ PS3 lacking this feature?
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