MS's "rush to next-gen could see the Xbox take a tumble

[Guden Oden]

To be honest, I wish nintendo would design some new chracters as I have honetly gotten tired of the same franchise characters being used in thier games over the years.

With regards to Mario Golf/Dr. Mario/Mario Party etc etc etc etc, just do like me; don't buy them and don't play them.

Case solved!

I don't go bitch about all the Sims boxes EA puts out either because they don't go around and ram them down people's throats; we don't HAVE to play them. Same thing here.

 

[Fafalada]

Radeons have a feature set that can't be used due to poor performance when using them.

Sure they can.
Every single feature in PC cards is always used in one way - It's listed on the spec sheet. (...sometimes more then once...)
And that's the most important usage anyhow - they are called bulletpoint features for a reason

 

[Qroach]

With regards to Mario Golf/Dr. Mario/Mario Party etc etc etc etc, just do like me; don't buy them and don't play them. Case solved!

First of all, I don't play those or buy those games. Second of all what's with you and your "don't you dare bad mouth nintendo" attitude today? I can't state an opinion with you jumping down my throat all of a sudden?

I don't go bitch about all the Sims boxes EA puts out either because they don't go around and ram them down people's throats; we don't HAVE to play them. Same thing here.

Who's bitching. Only stating a fact here guden! That has nothing to do with my opinion that nintendo needs some new characters, or that they are the kings of franchise chracters appearing in numerous games. I didn't say anyone had to buy them or not, did I? No. I do wish nintendo would create some new characters to have kept my interest over the years. Mario just isn't as cool a chracter as it was when I was 12 IMo.

 

[London Geezer]

Radeons have a feature set that can't be used due to poor performance when using them.

Sure they can.
Every single feature in PC cards is always used in one way - It's listed on the spec sheet. (...sometimes more then once...)
And that's the most important usage anyhow - they are called bulletpoint features for a reason

*farts*

 

[function]

Then they'd be badly wrong as the DC didn't die overnight at all. From the very start it never had EA on board, and the support it did have began to waver during 2000 as the PS2 market began to take shape. When Sega announced their decision to scrap the DC in January 2001 many developers had already decided it was a transitional machine, and were planning accordingly.

This is right.

Even after this point though, DC hardware and software sales continued with games like Sonic Adventure 2, Phatasy Star Online and the Sega Sports 2K2 games getting very reasonable sales.

This is wrong, i think. DC Sega sales were quite good before the cancellation with many games selling more than 1M units. After January 2k1, Sega prez said they would continue to support DC if games sell at least 100k. As a matter of fact, all (very few) 2k1 releases were big flops, because the userbase had disappeared and moved to the next machines in the meantime.

Software sales obviously reduced after Sega announced it was going to scrap the DC (though by what margin I'm not sure - obviously you aren't either), but the fact that several games managed to sell into the hundreds of thousands - even towards the end of that year - proves that the DC market did not die overnight. After Jan 2001 Sega managed to shift it's remaining inventory of DC's (about 1.5 to 2 million I think) - obviously a lot of people bought software.

And I think you're overplaying how well DC games sold prior to the machine being scrapped. I can remember developers at Sega talking up the fact that Sonic Adventure and Shenmue had sold over 1.5 and 1 million copies respectively, globally (very good on what was at the time a sub 8 million user base). Where all the "many" over-a-million sellers come from I'm not sure. Could you provide a list? I'd be interested to see just how many titles matched or beat the sales of these "big guns".

Phantasy Star Online, a game limited by it being largely pointless unless you play it online, managed to shift over 300,000 copies after the DC was marked for the scrap heap. Sonic Adventure 2 sold more than this, as I believe did NFL 2k2 released much later in the year (despite being pretty much a US only title).

Doesn't fit the pattern of something that "died overnight".

Despite this, it still didn't die overnight and has continued to receive some support in Japan untill recently - I think Puyo Puyo Fever from Sonic Team came out a couple of months ago.

The DC will never die Be serious, please.

?? You see me cracking jokes here? I never said the "The DC will never die" as obviously it almost totally has. You tried to use the DC as proof that consoles do "die overnight" when I was talking about the Xbox. You introduced the DC to the discussion and used it seemingly not knowing it's background as it didn't at all fit your argument (it actually helped mine more than yours, thanks).

Don't now try to brush me off as someone needing to "be serious" with respect to comment I never made, just because your example backfired.

Many consoles have a market long after they get officially superceded, with existing games having a shelf life greater than their launch period and new titles coming out to meet demand. The PSOne is receving titles 4 years after it's successor came out, and is still slowly (but surely) generating income for Sony and many 3rd parties.

 

[London Geezer]

The PSOne is receving titles 4 years after it's successor came out

It's been 4 years already?!? Oh my god i'm getting old!!!! Gravity will defeat me!

 

[function]

It's well on it's way to defeating me ...

[Edit] Much as time is defeating my hair. [/edit]

 

[Jov]

Many consoles have a market long after they get officially superceded, with existing games having a shelf life greater than their launch period and new titles coming out to meet demand. The PSOne is receving titles 4 years after it's successor came out, and is still slowly (but surely) generating income for Sony and many 3rd parties.

Xbox won't die over night, but MS might wish it does when Xenon is out. Also PSOne is not the best example for your "not dying over" argument either function (not supporting either btw), given Sony officially supports the platform. Whereas for the Xbox MS might stop production, hence support.

 

[AlNom]

OK I see your point, but that's not really flogging a franchise name. What I take true flogging is if MS took the Halo name/franchise and used it in as many ways as possible. Essientially trying to sell a new game based off the popularity of Halo using the same name, regardless of the actual content of the game. That's somehting nintendo has done to perfection over the years, better than anyone else.

To be honest, I wish nintendo would design some new chracters as I have honetly gotten tired of the same franchise characters being used in thier games over the years.

cool I suppose my own opinion of Halo's cash-cowness stems from the fact that I want the Halo series to end with the second game because I don't want to wait another 3 years for the next game , plus I want MS to find something else to back up the xbox. (I'm also starting to get tired of talking/hearing about halo for 4+ years ) I sure wouldn't mind a 40+ hours of Halo, if half of that consisted of gameplay and the other half was story. 8)

MS is pretty much exploiting popularity with the Halo toys..they're branching out The books expand the universe though, which is great

So what next for Halo? Beach Volleyball? Halo: Smash Soldiers? Master Chief: boot camp?

I now agree completely though with the Mario thing. The Mario Universe needs to end. He's just got no more "character" anymore. Sonic is getting old too...then again... kiddy system needs kiddy games for the new kiddies



"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is a...dumb...stupid...thing."

 

[London Geezer]

I think you should use more smileys...

 

[AlNom]

got carried away...

...

 

[Teasy]

Mario games are pretty much all very fun games, who gives a crap if Mario is in all of them? Its the gameplay that makes then worth buying.

Although personally I would like to see Super Tennis make a comeback in place of Mario Tennis (Mario Tennis was pretty much based on Super Tennis). But I see no problem with Mario continuing to be used in games as long as those games are different and above all else fun.

Alstrong, calling Nintendo systems "kiddie systems" is really stupid and is just the sort of thing that will start a further flame war in this thread. Don't do it!

On Radeon, plenty of its features could be used in games. Dot3, EMBM, Texture Compression ect, these were not just checkbox features..

 

[Qroach]

Mario games are pretty much all very fun games, who gives a crap if Mario is in all of them? Its the gameplay that makes then worth buying.

You could say the same about the EA games and many othe rexamples of long running franchises.

Although personally I would like to see Super Tennis make a comeback in place of Mario Tennis (Mario Tennis was pretty much based on Super Tennis).

That probably won't happen. Nintendo realized long ago that they would sell more sports games with mario in the title then creaitng a regular sports franchise.

Alstrong, calling Nintendo systems "kiddie systems" is really stupid and is just the sort of thing that will start a further flame war in this thread. Don't do it!

Cause a flame war with you I assume? Judging by your reaction. Some of you guys just need to drop the "Don't you dare bad mouth Nintendo" attitude and let really opinionated comments slide. If I bothered to respond to every comment regarding xbox that was said to start a flame war, I'd be posting 40-50 times a day in this forum.

 

[wazoo]

Software sales obviously reduced after Sega announced it was going to scrap the DC (though by what margin I'm not sure - obviously you aren't either), but the fact that several games managed to sell into the hundreds of thousands - even towards the end of that year - proves that the DC market did not die overnight. After Jan 2001 Sega managed to shift it's remaining inventory of DC's (about 1.5 to 2 million I think) - obviously a lot of people bought software.

It died in 2k1. Please tell me what games did sell in high quantity after the Dc cancellation ?? To be clear, when Sega cancelled the Dc, it promised more than 100 games to be released in 2K1. Afterwards, you could count less than 20 games for the whole year. 20 new games for one year for a population of 10M gamers. That is a market which is dying quite fast, if not "overnight".

And I think you're overplaying how well DC games sold prior to the machine being scrapped. I can remember developers at Sega talking up the fact that Sonic Adventure and Shenmue had sold over 1.5 and 1 million copies respectively, globally (very good on what was at the time a sub 8 million user base). Where all the "many" over-a-million sellers come from I'm not sure. Could you provide a list? I'd be interested to see just how many titles matched or beat the sales of these "big guns".

Sonic, Shenmue, NFL2K, Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Sega Rally, that is already a list, no ?? Enough to say "many".

Sonic Adventure 2 sold more than this, as I believe did NFL 2k2 released much later in the year (despite being pretty much a US only title).

Considering Sonic1 sold 2M copies, Sonic2 was a flop despite being one if not the only big DC release for 2K1. Shenmue2 was a disaster and not even released in the US.

Don't now try to brush me off as someone needing to "be serious" with respect to comment I never made, just because your example backfired.

Your example make me laugh (hum, sorry). you can not support the fact that the DC was still alive by bringing one release of a puzzle game 2 years after its death.

Many consoles have a market long after they get officially superceded, with existing games having a shelf life greater than their launch period and new titles coming out to meet demand. The PSOne is receving titles 4 years after it's successor came out, and is still slowly (but surely) generating income for Sony and many 3rd parties.

i'm sure puyo fever is generating a lot of money to Sega. Comparing the situation of the ps1 to the DC is weird. The ps1 is indeed the only real console to have a sustained life long after the launch of it successor. nothing in common with the DC.

 

[AlNom]

Alstrong, calling Nintendo systems "kiddie systems" is really stupid and is just the sort of thing that will start a further flame war in this thread. Don't do it!

sorry, it was supposed to be a light jab.

 

[jvd]

When GS came out, Radeons were out. GS can draw 75 millions raw polygons peak. Radeons can't. GS has an immense 2.4Gpixel fillrate. Radeons don't. GS has a limited feature set. Radeons have a feature set that can't be used due to poor performance when using them.


That was just to put things in perspective................

75 million peak and what was sustained london ? How about with lights ? how about with bump mapping ? how about higher forms of filtering like aniso ? super sampling ?

2.4gixel pixels ? i thought with textures it droped down to half of that ?

After that how much is sustianed ? when running features of similar quality as a radeon what would the perfromance be like then ?


Not to mention with the radeon ati showed off the first versions of smooth vision and hyper z compresion .

Which they have continued to improve .

 

[function]

Many consoles have a market long after they get officially superceded, with existing games having a shelf life greater than their launch period and new titles coming out to meet demand. The PSOne is receving titles 4 years after it's successor came out, and is still slowly (but surely) generating income for Sony and many 3rd parties.

Xbox won't die over night, but MS might wish it does when Xenon is out. Also PSOne is not the best example for your "not dying over" argument either function (not supporting either btw), given Sony officially supports the platform. Whereas for the Xbox MS might stop production, hence support.

The reference to the PSOne was a single sentence general comment on just how successful consoles can be after their successor is arrives, and wasn't specifically directed towards the Xbox and Xenon or meant to predict what would happen with them.

The argument about dying overnight was one wazoo introduced, about the DC.

Getting on to your point, yeah, MS may want to stop making Xboxes around the time of (or even before) Xenon's launch as they're losing so much money on them. Even if they did however, there would still be 15+ million Xbox owners around, some of whom wouldn't be in the first 200,000 people to buy Xenon and who would continue to want Xbox software for a while.

Even if MS wanted to stop making the Xbox, they wouldn't want to pass up the oppotunity to make money on software sold for the machine (even if this was just old games like Halo 2 that were still selling). Besides, as I believe Qroach said, MS is still actively signing new 3rd party developers for Xbox development, while Sony are now reluctant to do this for PS2 (can't find the quote right now, correct me if I'm wrong). It doesn't look like they'll be trying to force the Xbox out of existance next year.

My own opinion is that while they may be reluctant to keep competing on price, Microsoft would still rather sell their Xboxes to consumers than see them buy a none Xenon product. And at $250 - $300 there will be a lot of people not queing up for Xenon initially. With it's links to the PC world and suitability for upgraded PS2 ports there could foreseably be a couple of good years of software left for the Xbox, and Microsoft must be aware that simply cutting off the Xbox won't reliably force developers and consumers over to Xenon.

Infact it wouldn't suprise me to see some games jointly developed for PC, Xbox and Xenon over the next couple of years, much in the same way that games are co-developed for Xbox and PC at the moment.

 

[Jov]

75 million peak and what was sustained london ? How about with lights ? how about with bump mapping ? how about higher forms of filtering like aniso ? super sampling ?

2.4gixel pixels ? i thought with textures it droped down to half of that ?

After that how much is sustianed ? when running features of similar quality as a radeon what would the perfromance be like then ?


Not to mention with the radeon ati showed off the first versions of smooth vision and hyper z compresion .

Which they have continued to improve .

If you have the Radeon from 2000 in todays top P4 (giving it the best CPU to trade off for the fix plantform business), can it push graphics and effects like ZOE2, JakII, SH3/4 and whatever the top PS2 games have?

I am taking the fact Sony and ATi took different approaches in achieving top quality graphics within games.

This might not be fair (one side or the other), but if the Radeon ends up to be the bottleneck then what more can be said?

DeanoC, comments given you were involved in the porting of SH2?

 

[Phil]

75 million peak and what was sustained london ?

Obviously everything. Those are measured peaks of the GS.

How about with lights ? how about with bump mapping ? how about higher forms of filtering like aniso ? super sampling ?

Check the rest of the spec sheet for that.

2.4gixel pixels ? i thought with textures it droped down to half of that ?

So? Does that make the 2.4 fillrate un-usable? No.

After that how much is sustianed ? when running features of similar quality as a radeon what would the perfromance be like then ?

Let me get this straight: You are arguing the "unimpressiveness" of the PS2 (and Sony's "inexistant" skills), with questions, or better lack of evidence? One would think that someone critizing something would at least have some facts around that would justify such criticism.

Not to mention with the radeon ati showed off the first versions of smooth vision and hyper z compresion .

Which they have continued to improve .

Wow. I'm sure they won an award for that one...

 

[Jov]

Infact it wouldn't suprise me to see some games jointly developed for PC, Xbox and Xenon over the next couple of years, much in the same way that games are co-developed for Xbox and PC at the moment.

Then I have the feeling devs doing this won't be pushing the edge with Xenon for quite a while if Xbox takes a bite in the production budget of the same titles or ports.