MS regulating developers choices on other platforms *spawn

More like it's a direct result of having a mandatory hard drive. If every 360 shipped with a hard drive I'd bet you'd see more flexibility on mandatory installs from Microsoft.

"Flexibility" and mandatory don't really go together. I prefer to have a choice to not wait several minutes to play a game for the first time; especially since, unlike a PC, the console also becomes completely useless during the install process. Until the PS3, it had been quite some time since I had had to leave the room and go do something else while a system was
getting a game ready for me to play. I'm talking C64 with 1541 floppy drive days...
 
Because all games would have to be BC with the slower speeds meaning faster units wouldn't gain any advantage - I don't think mandatory installs are 100% because of the slower HDD. there's plenty of games that do no installing and the load times are comparable (from rubbish memory)...however I do believe it helps devs get around some other issues and many saves them time and effect.

Full installs of games on the 360 don't seem to cause compatability problems and the HD or a usb stick are most certainly faster than the DVD drive. Why does that pose no problem then? It was a function that was patched in well into the systems life, too.
 
"Flexibility" and mandatory don't really go together. I prefer to have a choice to not wait several minutes to play a game for the first time; especially since, unlike a PC, the console also becomes completely useless during the install process. Until the PS3, it had been quite some time since I had had to leave the room and go do something else while a system was
getting a game ready for me to play. I'm talking C64 with 1541 floppy drive days...

I usually have other stuff to do when I get in, rarely will I be able to pick up a game as I walk in and play...I know it's optional for X360 but let's be honest, other than the initial quick play (and I don't even do that) I bet everyone here installs...it's the best way to play...like I said earlier, shame Sony don't let you do it.
 
Full installs of games on the 360 don't seem to cause compatability problems and the HD or a usb stick are most certainly faster than the DVD drive. Why does that pose no problem then? It was a function that was patched in well into the systems life, too.

AFAIK games need to run to the original standard therefore any advantage would be just the installing part, why would Sony spend more money just so folk can install games more quickly? Sure they COULD but why bother? The point was that if HD DVD had been added as standard instead of add-on only then there would have been a real advantage to the user (ability to play HD DVD films) and the devs would have more freedom from space restraints should they desire it...they could have had 'HD editions' having more content or exclusive levels...I could see that being popular, esp in the early days of bluray.
 
You ignore the above quotes so of course you would call it into question :)

THEY CHANGED THE GAME BECAUSE OF THE DVD LIMIT... :)

And then they did alot of PR bullshit ehmm damage control because it´s bad business to claim that the 360 is limited (same goes for any platform),

Even if I were to accept that without argument, it's one game and I still question the overall extent that current-gen games are being held back by DVD size restrictions. You're going to have to present more comprehensive evidence showing this than one quote referencing one game that itself was followed by a clarification to convince me otherwise. There are too many other factors effecting the amount of content in games for this to have as much of an effect as you would like to believe. Technical reasons and economic ones.

You also failed to explain why we don't see much more "game" content on PS3 exclusives than there is in multiplatform games or 360 exclusives despite the increased storage available on BR and no artificial restriction on using it.
 
Even if I were to accept that without argument, it's one game and I still question the overall extent that current-gen games are being held back by DVD size restrictions. You're going to have to present more comprehensive evidence showing this than one quote referencing one game that itself was followed by a clarification to convince me otherwise.

Of course no-one here can be 100% correct without evidence - which we'll never see (or no day soon). However there is a lot of pointers to suggest that the DVD size is a limitation. Maybe the 360 would have been region free without the (suggested) size limit? Maybe games would have no compressed video and audio on 360? Perhaps story driven games wouldn't have as many complaints about getting 'shorter'? Perhaps there would be less DLC? All these pointers (and more) seem to add up to a believable story. Now factor in comments about 'extra disk' tax and MS leaning on devs to keep content down to one disk.

No evidence but lot's of smoke.
 
You also failed to explain why we don't see much more "game" content on PS3 exclusives than there is in multiplatform games or 360 exclusives despite the increased storage available on BR and no artificial restriction on using it.

Are you sure we don't? If a game like Uncharted has, say, 9GB of graphics memory, that seems small use of the extra room on a BD, until you realise that on a 360 format DVD you have 6.8GB, and 1-2GB would be used for video, sound and other stuff, leaving at most 5GB for graphics ... then it's still almost double? I'm pretty sure God of War 3 is no different versus, say, a Bayonetta - but compare it also to Castlevania LoS (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/26/how-disc-swapping-works-in-castlevania-lords-of-shadow-for-xbox/). GT5 has about 13GB of game data excluding videos and such, and Forza 3 requires you to install the second drive should you (meaning I, as it is my favorite 360 game, only neglected now because of GT5) want to play niche tracks like Le Mans, Nurburgring and another one (and some extra cars) ...

I'd say it is particularly the exclusives, on both sides, that seem to use more than a DVD's worth (and using more than a DVDs worth really doesn't have to be 50GB immediately - Killzone 3 used like 47GB, but that was a lot of video in both 3D and 2D, language data, etc.; though even there I challenge people to argue that's not a 'valid' use of the format).
 
I'm fully aware of why PS3 launch slipped, I'm less aware of why the X360 had such poor supply at launch (especially on simple things like RGB scart leads and HDD add-ons). But even then, sorry, I don't buy the lack of HD DVD arguement, and in fact all these comments just add up to MS rushing to launch ahead of the competition at all costs (poor supplies, smaller capacity, no HDMI and bad reliability).
Because the 360 launched worldwide, and the PS3 staggered their launch (after promising to launch worldwide). And you can "not buy" the hddvd argument all you like. I would suggest that even if the 360 had launched at the same time as the PS3, it _still_ would have used DVD.

Well one console launched with severe supply constraints and the other didn't ;)
Yah, I'm sure the $800-$900 PS3s on E-bay indicated a perfectly good supply. When the PS3 launched, I was still in the HD DVD team, and we had discussions with Toshiba about how the other blu ray manufacturers were desperate for diodes because Sony was hoarding theirs for the PS3.
Any time a console launches, it'll generally be supply constrained for a few months, your factories haven't spun up to full speed, and generally, you don't have the time to stockpile as much as you'd like. The more regions you launch in makes it worse, because you can't easily shift stock from one to another as the demand changes.

PS3 was even more supply constrained than the 360, so much so that they abandoned a worldwide launch, slipped 6 months (12 months for europe), tossed their blu-ray partners under a bus, and still could not keep up, even with the lower demand their launch price caused.

can't?

The PS3 is 2x because there's no reason to upgrade, however putting a HD DVD into an X360 would mean the user had the option to play HD DVD films (at least) and devs the option to use more space...but wait, if devs had that option then maybe more games would have required 2 disks...something MS didn't want.
Yes, Can't. Any change that significant would have broken games relying on the higher data rate from the DVD drive. You can sometimes go to better performance, but going to worse performance is a huge no-no. MS had the ability to allow the HD DVD addon to be used for games, and didn't, because splitting the user base is generally a very bad thing, especially that early into the console generation. The developers would not have thanked MS if they had been told they now need to ship all their titles on two formats, and the consumer confusion would have sunk the console.
I usually have other stuff to do when I get in, rarely will I be able to pick up a game as I walk in and play...I know it's optional for X360 but let's be honest, other than the initial quick play (and I don't even do that) I bet everyone here installs...it's the best way to play...like I said earlier, shame Sony don't let you do it.
I have installed exactly 0 games on my console. I started once, but got bored. It takes too long. I don't have stats on the number of games installed in our userbase, but I suspect it's lower than you think.

Anyway, I'm done on this topic. We can argue with 20/20 hindsight all we like, it won't change the facts, and any theoretical changes we like to think would have helped will have had just as much chance of sinking the system.
 
Because the 360 launched worldwide, and the PS3 staggered their launch (after promising to launch worldwide).

The bottom line is - in the shops you COULD buy a PS3 without pre-ordering in the UK whereas my X360 pre-order wasn't delivered until a couple of weeks after launch. That's a fact...and don't get me started on the leads fiasco (which you ignore each time).

Yah, I'm sure the $800-$900 PS3s on E-bay indicated a perfectly good supply.

This was when it launched in Japan, I ask my manager who was on holiday in Japan walk into a shop and buy one off the shelf and bring it back to the UK...ironically I think from launch I got them around the same time, one pre-ordered in the UK the other by just walking into a shop!

Any time a console launches, it'll generally be supply constrained for a few months, your factories haven't spun up to full speed, and generally, you don't have the time to stockpile as much as you'd like. The more regions you launch in makes it worse, because you can't easily shift stock from one to another as the demand changes.

I do understand this, whilst I think MS did an amazing job releasing WW like they did - I personally would have prefered they delayed and had a reasonable supply at launch, all they did was ensure greedy buggers made a quick buck off gamers

PS3 was even more supply constrained than the 360, so much so that they abandoned a worldwide launch, slipped 6 months (12 months for europe), tossed their blu-ray partners under a bus, and still could not keep up, even with the lower demand their launch price caused.

I don't really call this supply constrained (and maybe this is where the issue is) - Sony waited to launch with enough stock on the shop floor, MS launched in dribs and drabs - actually, wasn't that compounded by a tanker sinking or something with a shipment onboard?

Yes, Can't. Any change that significant would have broken games relying on the higher data rate from the DVD drive.

Sorry, I thought HD DVD was supposed to be backward compatible? You know, like my PS3 can play DVDs so HD DVD would be able to play them too.

I have installed exactly 0 games on my console. I started once, but got bored. It takes too long. I don't have stats on the number of games installed in our userbase, but I suspect it's lower than you think.

I don't know one person (other than you) who doesn't install, it saves wear and tear on the DVD but most importantly keeps the noise down (esp. on pre slim models which were really loud!)

Anyway, I'm done on this topic. We can argue with 20/20 hindsight all we like, it won't change the facts, and any theoretical changes we like to think would have helped will have had just as much chance of sinking the system.

facts? sorry...where are those? I've not seen any evidence to prove any facts.
 
"Flexibility" and mandatory don't really go together. I prefer to have a choice to not wait several minutes to play a game for the first time; especially since, unlike a PC, the console also becomes completely useless during the install process. Until the PS3, it had been quite some time since I had had to leave the room and go do something else while a system was
getting a game ready for me to play. I'm talking C64 with 1541 floppy drive days...
Flexibility from Microsoft towards giving developers the option of a mandatory install. So more choice for developers, not necessarily end users. This could mean massive open world games that could use over 10 GBs instead of being constrained by DVD limits, or faster access to game resources since the highest latency for games is when they have to hit the optical drive. Really MS wouldn't have been hamstrung by DVD if it weren't also held back by not having mandatory hard drives.
 
Sorry, I thought HD DVD was supposed to be backward compatible? You know, like my PS3 can play DVDs so HD DVD would be able to play them too.

You appeared to be saying that MS could have let games come out on HD-DVD in the HD-DVD equipped systems, but that this might have made more multi-dvd game appear: "however putting a HD DVD into an X360 would mean the user had the option to play HD DVD films (at least) and devs the option to use more space...but wait, if devs had that option then maybe more games would have required 2 disks...something MS didn't want.".

bkillan pointed out that moving from the faster dvd format to slower HD-DVD could have broken games that relied on DVD's performance:"Any change that significant would have broken games relying on the higher data rate from the DVD drive. You can sometimes go to better performance, but going to worse performance is a huge no-no."

Releasing a HD-DVD equipped 360, after the original DVD system, with HD-DVD games would have been a bizarre, self destructive spectacle of the kind that Sega were famous for.

I don't know one person (other than you) who doesn't install, it saves wear and tear on the DVD but most importantly keeps the noise down (esp. on pre slim models which were really loud!)

I know a few. People with kids - the kids just put the games in and play from disk. The tv is loud enough and the xbox is far enough away that they simply don't care.
 
Flexibility from Microsoft towards giving developers the option of a mandatory install. So more choice for developers, not necessarily end users. This could mean massive open world games that could use over 10 GBs instead of being constrained by DVD limits, or faster access to game resources since the highest latency for games is when they have to hit the optical drive. Really MS wouldn't have been hamstrung by DVD if it weren't also held back by not having mandatory hard drives.

MS don't appear to be hamstrung by DVD though. Sony do.

The Xbox 360 is six years old, it should be $99 by now. Games are hamstrung by the entire platform.
 
I don't really call this supply constrained (and maybe this is where the issue is) - Sony waited to launch with enough stock on the shop floor, MS launched in dribs and drabs - actually, wasn't that compounded by a tanker sinking or something with a shipment onboard?

In the first 6 months in the US MS moved 1.5 million 360s. Sony moved 1.27 million PS3s in their first 6 months. Facts don't agree with your revisionist history. Of course it's a lot easier to keep product on the shelf if no one wants to pay the $600 you're asking.

I don't know one person (other than you) who doesn't install, it saves wear and tear on the DVD but most importantly keeps the noise down (esp. on pre slim models which were really loud!)

Like bkilian, the only games installed on my console are Arcade downloads. The net benefit isn't worth the hassle and I'd just have a HDD filled with games I no longer play.
 
MS don't appear to be hamstrung by DVD though. Sony do.
So games are hamstrung by DVD and Blu-ray is better. Sounds right to me.

I have installed exactly 0 games on my console. I started once, but got bored. It takes too long. I don't have stats on the number of games installed in our userbase, but I suspect it's lower than you think.
Installs are just better. Seriously, great feature. Ever since my 360 cracked my copy of SSFIV, the less time my games spend spinning in that drive the better.
 
I rarely ever install games to my X360.

The only reason that I will install a game is if the performance is improved. Otherwise, most games have a reasonable load time for me.
 
I install all my games, out of habit and the desire to not hear the noise of the dvd-rom spinning. I wish I could convert my disc-based games into GamesOnDemand so I wont even need to switch the originals.
 
I know folks who have no idea that the option exists... chalk it up to just sticking the disc in the drive and playing instead of bothering to look at "hit Y for more options" to get to the install page.
 
I know folks who have no idea that the option exists... chalk it up to just sticking the disc in the drive and playing instead of bothering to look at "hit Y for more options" to get to the install page.

Oh I know it's there, although I agree "most" casual folks probably don't know its there. It's just that X360 games in general do not have terrible load times.
In addition, I usually finish most SP games within 1-2 weeks of starting (if I ever finish it).

It's nice to have the option though.
 
I install my games to the hard drive for the ones I played constantly like Halo 3, ODST, Reach, Batman Arkham Asylum & Red Dead Redemption. It wasn't because of the noise of the DVD drive(never heard it with my sound system) & it was never because of the speed(didn't care). It was because of wear & tear on the drive. I had a DVD-ROM drive fail on my first system. I don't plan on that happening again on my current system. So far so good! Bkilian, tell the team thanks! :)

Tommy McClain
 
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