MS is #2 in Europe, contrary to Nintendo's press release

[Glonk]

the FACT is that MS sold 1.4 millions to end users, nintendo sold 1.5 millions to end users. (what we know from nintendo announcement..).
and that MS sold 1.8 millions to retailers, and we don't how how much nintendo sold to retailers.
(what we know from MS announcement).

No no no no no.

How on Earth do you honestly believe Nintendo's numbers are sold-to-end-users for both users? Firstly, the MS numbers they used are an ESTIMATE by an analyst. Secondly, they simply state "sold" -- "sold" in a console manufacturer's press release means sold to retailers. It's out of their hands, the company has sold that product. They have no way of knowing how many end users bought it without resorting to some company like NPD -- and they estimate.

Nintendo's press release contained their sold-to-retailers number (1.5M) and an analyst's prediction of the Xboxes sold to users (1.4M). Why don't you go back and read it, and look at it closely.

about the european sales, nintendo used to give "sold to consumers" figures

Find me one press release from Nintendos where it specifies sold to consumers, rather than sold to retailers.

For as long as I can remember, Sony and Nintendo have both reported "sold" numbers, not "sold to end users/customers". And "sold", from the companies' views, means sold to retailers.

you can't just compare figures from the two announcements.

You're using Nintendo's numbers of an estimate of MS' to Nintendo's sold to retailers numbers, why are you telling me I can't compare sold-to-retail to sold-to-retail?

The only companies on either side that truly know the figures are the manufacturers, and they can only accurately report sold to retail numbers. That's what they do.

You're grossly mistaken if you think Nintendo reports "sold to consumer" numbers. Perhaps occasionally they've cited NPD or some other market research firm for "sold to consumer" numbers, but this release doesn't cite that for their numbers -- they're sold to retail numbers.

despite the claim in your article, microsoft didn't sell about 425000 xbox to consumers in japan.
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-981178.html

The Xbox has been nearly invisible in Japan, selling slightly more than 300,000 units since its debut there last March.

http://mb.vgdirectory.com/topten.htm
Xbox 312,400

do you have some URL that gives a 425,000 figure for japanese xbox sales ? of course not..

The article said less than half, which means less than 425,000 (my math is a little rusty, correct me if I'm wrong -- assuming the 312,400 number is 100% accurate, is 312,400 < 425,000? I believe it is...the article said less than, not "about". don't change the wording to make a point, it's poor form...). You're also probably aware that the source for C|Net's sales figures are the same as the other one you cited, which certainly do not cover 100% of the market. And considering these are obviously sold to retail numbers, can you please explain to me why you find these figures unrealistic?

 

[Glonk]

I'll help you out a bit. Here's Nintendo's thingie: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...738&e=5&u=/nm/20030107/tc_nm/tech_nintendo_dc

LONDON (Reuters) - Japan's Nintendo said Tuesday it had sold 1.5 million GameCube units in Europe last year, holding off rival Microsoft for second place in the hotly contested video game console market.
...
Ben Keen, executive director of market research firm ScreenDigest, forecast Tuesday that Xbox sold 1.4 million consoles in Europe last year

Did you catch that?
Nintendo gave the 1.5M GCN number, as a generic "sold" (just as MS did).
A market research firm named ScreenDigest ESTIMATED that the Xbox sold 1.4M in Europe.

Do you understand the difference?

 

[oli2]

OK, Glonk.
The point is (if i put away all the bla-bla in your post) : let's find it normal and believe Microsoft when they give numbers that are clearly maximized (when you compare with other sources).

On the other point, you find it normal to minimize the numbers given by Nintendo even if they had a unique way to count for years.

It's just a question of faith, don't you think ??

This discussion remind what was said monthes ago when we got a debate comparing the poly/s count on the 3 machines.

Sony/M$ gave Theoric numbers
Nintendo gave practical numbers

Much people here thought at this time that it was fair to compare these "brut" numbers ...

 

[Magnum PI]

I'll help you out a bit. Here's Nintendo's thingie: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e=5&u=/nm/20030107/tc_nm/tech_nintendo_dc

LONDON (Reuters) - Japan's Nintendo said Tuesday it had sold 1.5 million GameCube units in Europe last year, holding off rival Microsoft for second place in the hotly contested video game console market.
...
Ben Keen, executive director of market research firm ScreenDigest, forecast Tuesday that Xbox sold 1.4 million consoles in Europe last year

Did you catch that?
Nintendo gave the 1.5M GCN number, as a generic "sold" (just as MS did).
A market research firm named ScreenDigest ESTIMATED that the Xbox sold 1.4M in Europe.

Do you understand the difference?

as we have seen in the past (some time after the european launch)

when nintendo gives a number as generic "sold", it is a number of consoles sold to consumers.
when microsoft gives a number as generic "sold", it is a number of consoles sold to retailers.

this explains why microsoft numbers look so inflated compared to others sources. (425,000 vs 312,000 in japan..)

 

[aneep]

err how Nintendo would know how many they have sold to consumers?
ChartTrack? and i'm sure somebody would contest that even if both MS and Nintendo cited ChartTrack numbers since MS like to lie, as almost everyone here likes to see it

MS sold more than Nintendo = MS is lying

-aneep-

 

[Johnny Awesome]

My numbers are right Ben. Take my breakdown and add them up and you'll see that they are correct. Xbox was ahead of GCN by 1 million according to 1.5x NPD in November. The gap widened by 400k in December. MS stated 5.4 million in their press release. Thus Nintendo can only be at 4 million in the US.

Xbox - 8.05 million
Cube - 8 million

The gap is widening every week. Look at the latest UK and AUS charts for details.

Both consoles are selling worse than Dreamcast did. The only saving grace for MS is that they are doing better than Dreamcast outside of Japan and have a higher attach rate. The only saving grace for Nintendo is that their first party attach rate is through the roof. Both platforms also have more forward momentum than the Dreamcast had at this point in its lifecycle, mainly because they are superior to PS2 from a hardware perspective.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Take my breakdown and add them up and you'll see that they are correct.

I see they add up to what you say, what I don't see is the 8.05Million number being reported anywhere. MS stated 'over 8Million' and that was it from the press releast that Glonk posted the link to.

Xbox was ahead of GCN by 1 million according to 1.5x NPD in November. The gap widened by 400k in December. MS stated 5.4 million in their press release. Thus Nintendo can only be at 4 million in the US.

Where did you get the gap widened by 400K(I have yet to see any December numbers) or the 5.4 number from? I'm not doubting you saw them, but I haven't seen any sources for this yet. Nintendo has stated that they shipped 10Million consoles in '02. If they have only sold eight that would leave nearly five million in the pipe. I don't see that as realistic. It is possible that MS is underreporting their US sales still, they did this last year although I thought for sure they would switch over their numbers(from NPD to sold or shipped) for this round of press.

The gap is widening every week. Look at the latest UK and AUS charts for details.

If we broke down the US state by state we would could track some weird numbers too Australlia in particular is a considerably smaller gaming market then California or New York.

Both consoles are selling worse than Dreamcast did.

Nintendo shipped as many Cubes in '02 as Sega did for DC's lifetime.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Well, Nintendo says they sold 2.5 million in Asia and 1.5 million in Europe. Matt at IGN says that Nintendo is 1.4 million behind Xbox. MS reported 850k in Asia, 5.4 million in US, and 1.8 million in Europe. This all adds up to:

Cube - 8 million
Xbox - 8.05 million

The Xbox outsold Cube 2:1 in Europe in December and about 8:1 in Australia. They are outpacing Xbox in Japan, but the sales are relatively small there anyway (40k per month or so). The gap is widening in the US as well and will likely get worse until Zelda arrives.

It's hard to believe, but Nintendo is #3 right now. I wouldn't have predicted it either, since my final predicted 2005 numbers remain at 90million PS2, 45 million Cube, and 30 million Xbox, as always. It doesn't look so great for Nintendo going forward, since impending price drops to $150 and $99 aren't necessarily going to be favorable to Cube.

 

[Teasy]

Johnny:

Your using MS announced numbers VS Nintendo announced numbers. The problem?.. as people have already said, who says the numbers both mean the same thing?

Only numbers from the same source, or at least similar sources, are even worth posting AFAICS.

I mean just look at MS's Asian numbers, 850,000. The numbers we've seen from Japan are about 300,000. On the other hand Nintendo's Asian numbers (2.5 million) are exactly what we've seen from many independent sources in Japan. I realise that Asia is more then just Japan, but Japan is the large majority of console sales in Asia and does anyone really expect places like China to except XBox any better then Japan have? What do these two comparisons tell you? To me it says that its very possible that while MS are using shipped numbers Nintendo are using sold numbers.

This is getting sad, there are now two threads in this forum both with these flimbsey flawed numbers.

 

[Qroach]

Teasy, asia comprises of more than just japan. I'm sure you already know that but just thought i'd throw that in... you need to figure where sales in places like Korea factor into things.

 

[Teasy]

Yeah I just edited my post to mention that.

I just can't see the rest of Asia selling more XBox's then Japan. Also I can't see the rest of Asia selling no GC's. I'm pretty sure GC is released in some other Asian countries right?

 

[Qroach]

The thing is, most other asian countries don't like Japan. Specifically Korea and China...

Well look a t it this way. Xbox has almost sold as many units in Austrialia as they did in Japan. Despite the market there being smaller...

 

[Ty]

I got back from a business trip in Korea (first time) just last month and to be honest, I would be surprised if their console market actually amounted to much at this point.

It seems the gaming market actually centers around PC Game parlors - basically internet cafe type of businesses where people play games instead of just browsing the web.

In addition I managed to go to their version of E3. Without trying to be disparaging, calling it E3 Lite Jr. is still a vast overstatement as you could see everything in good detail under 30 minutes. Yet there was not a single console game on the show floor afair.

Some say it has something to do with Korean reluctance to import/support consoles because of the obvious Japanese influence in these products. Whatever the cause may be, I don't think there is much of a Korean market for consoles.

Does anyone have hard data on this?

 

[Glonk]

Your using MS announced numbers VS Nintendo announced numbers. The problem?.. as people have already said, who says the numbers both mean the same thing?

Nintendo did not specify a market research firm for their numbers.
Thus (and this is fairly simple logic) they're sold to retailer numbers, because from a business and financial perspective, Nintendo only cares once retailers buy consoles from them (Nintendo has then sold them).

The problem is quite simple: There's no way for Nintendo to know how many consumers bought the consoles without resorting to market research firms which then estimate. Nintendo's press release mentioned no such firm for their figures, simply a "sold" figure, so it is hence a "sold to retailer" number.

Only numbers from the same source, or at least similar sources, are even worth posting AFAICS.

I guess it doesn't matter now, since not one, but two independent firms have confirmed the results and are specific about being sold to consumers...Nintendo is #3 in Europe, North America, and Australia.

I mean just look at MS's Asian numbers, 850,000. The numbers we've seen from Japan are about 300,000.

They're more than 300,000. And those are, again, estimates. Also keep in mind that this is a sold to retailer number. And Asia includes Australia and the Koreas. MS said "less than half" of their 850,000 came from Japan, and when you consider it's a soldtoretailer number and the 300,000+ numbers before were simply estimates, I don't see why this is unrealistic?

 

[wazoo]

I mean just look at MS's Asian numbers, 850,000. The numbers we've seen from Japan are about 300,000.

They're more than 300,000. And those are, again, estimates. Also keep in mind that this is a sold to retailer number. And Asia includes Australia and the Koreas. MS said "less than half" of their 850,000 came from Japan, and when you consider it's a soldtoretailer number and the 300,000+ numbers before were simply estimates, I don't see why this is unrealistic?

If MS sold 850k in Asia, the Gc is at 5M there

 

[Teasy]

Nintendo did not specify a market research firm for their numbers.
Thus (and this is fairly simple logic) they're sold to retailer numbers, because from a business and financial perspective, Nintendo only cares once retailers buy consoles from them (Nintendo has then sold them).

I thought consoles were given to retailers and then the money was given to Nintendo when the retailer sold the console?

The problem is quite simple: There's no way for Nintendo to know how many consumers bought the consoles without resorting to market research firms which then estimate. Nintendo's press release mentioned no such firm for their figures, simply a "sold" figure, so it is hence a "sold to retailer" number.

Nintendo didn't mention a source for any of its numbers, yet the Japanese numbers are exactly what research firms are giving as sold to consumer numbers. Do Nintendo currently have no consoles actually in stores in Japan then?

I guess it doesn't matter now, since not one, but two independent firms have confirmed the results and are specific about being sold to consumers...Nintendo is #3 in Europe, North America, and Australia.

Where?.. I haven't seen these numbers from these two independent firms. I thought the ChartTrack and Gfk numbers were only for December and not total.

They're more than 300,000. And those are, again, estimates. Also keep in mind that this is a sold to retailer number.

GC sales from tracking firms in Japan are also estimates of sold to consumers numbers, yet they are the same as Nintendo's own numbers. So then MS's Asian numbers are sold to retailers and Nintendo's aren't?

And Asia includes Australia and the Koreas

I thought Australia wasn't actually considered part of Asia?

 

[Glonk]

I thought consoles were given to retailers and then the money was given to Nintendo when the retailer sold the console?

No, retailers buy the consoles at some price (IIRC, Xboxes are sold at $185 to retailers, don't know GCN's figures), and the retailers then sell it.

Nintendo didn't mention a source for any of its numbers, yet the Japanese numbers are exactly what research firms are giving as sold to consumer numbers. Do Nintendo currently have no consoles actually in stores in Japan then?

Are they exactly the same? I could have sworn Media-Create's estimates were pretty close, but not exactly the same. Can you cite both figures please?

Where?.. I haven't seen these numbers from these two independent firms. I thought the ChartTrack and Gfk numbers were only for December and not total.

They give both out. Unfortunately they actual numbers are private, someone should leak them soon...

MS has more in total, and sold more in December...

I thought Australia wasn't actually considered part of Asia?

Obviously you're correct in a geographic sense, but in these figures they're lumped together.

 

[Teasy]

No, retailers buy the consoles at some price (IIRC, Xboxes are sold at $185 to retailers, don't know GCN's figures), and the retailers then sell it.

I'm sure I've heard Ben say a few times that Nintendo give the consoles the stores and they pay when they sell. AFAIR Ben worked as a manager in a store like that for quite a few years (hopefully I'm not getting totally mixed up between Ben and someone else , but someone deffinately said that).

Are they exactly the same? I could have sworn Media-Create's estimates were pretty close, but not exactly the same. Can you cite both figures please?

They're the same within about 100,000 AFAIR. MediaCreate had GC at 1.3+ million this year and about 1.2 million the year before. Those are just roughly as I remember them but I will go and look and find the numbers and post them here.

They give both out. Unfortunately they actual numbers are private, someone should leak them soon...

MS has more in total, and sold more in December

Well when the numbers are leaked then that will be a different matter, that's something firm the discuss, but right now its only rumour if the numbers are not actually known. Or did they actually say that XBox was ahead but not give the exact numbers?

BTW the numbers were based on U.K, Germany and France, that's about 50% of the European market not total.

Oh, also were the ChartTrack and Gfk numbers seperate or combined? Because I'd like to know, if XBox is actually ahead, wether or not GC is still ahead in Germany and France and its just its excellent U.K numbers taking XBox ahead.

Obviously you're correct in a geographic sense, but in these figures they're lumped together.

So MS give Asian numbers including countries not actually considered to be in Asia, what about Nintendo?

 

[Qroach]

I'm sure I've heard Ben say a few times that Nintendo give the consoles the stores and they pay when they sell. AFAIR Ben worked as a manager in a store like that for quite a few years (hopefully I'm not getting totally mixed up between Ben and someone else , but someone deffinately said that).

That certainly isn't the way it works. Distrbuters pay for everything they recieve from nintendo and other manufacturers. They usually have a certain amount of time to pay (like 30 days). The hardware is NOT loaned out until it sells. I worked in retail and it never worked anything like this.

Teasy, I don't know why you're arguing about this, it's all right in front of you to see.

 

[DVFtaxman]

when quoting numbers for "Asia" is that just Asia, or does it mean Autralasia? The reason I ask is that I know that GC has done incredibly badly in OZ and NZ. I also can't see figures for this region as being quoted anywhere else, so I am assuming that it is included in the figures for Asia.
Also, I may be wrong, but I don't think GC has been released anywhere in Asia outside of Japan, Oz, NZ and Hong Kong.