More comments from John Carmack about xbox360, ps3
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He doesn't say anything new.I think it's really pathetic that MS had this guy talking(on video) about the xbox360 and how it is his target platform at X05,when Carmack and his team are making a multi-platform game.MS must be really desperate if they want their console to be "advertised" through multi-platform games and developers.
He can't use OpenGL on X360 even if he wanted to. I don't know what the status of OpenGL will be on Windows PCs post-Vista, but I know he wasn't very happy with how MS was treating it.
Also, fulcizombie, the point of his vid appearance at X05 was to advocate the development platform. It's not about MS being desperate for exclusives!
Also, fulcizombie, the point of his vid appearance at X05 was to advocate the development platform. It's not about MS being desperate for exclusives!
inefficient
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Are we very sure OpenGL is not an option on the 360? Because this would be a pretty big shift for id and Carmack - using DX as their primary API target.
Since there is a ps3 version there would need to be both an OpenGL version of the engine. The PC port could use either, but it seems to be a waste of time to have to optimize both paths. And this is something Carmack would have complained about by now.
Since there is a ps3 version there would need to be both an OpenGL version of the engine. The PC port could use either, but it seems to be a waste of time to have to optimize both paths. And this is something Carmack would have complained about by now.
fulcizombie said:
Did you think it was equally as pathetic when Sony brought out Tim Sweeny of Epic to talk about how great the PS3 was when his team is also making a multiplatform game (And is only porting their PC game to the PS3)
Or is Sony excluded from being pathetic for this type of promotion? Because, you know, they are Sony after all, and that makes them special.
inefficient said:
I would be surprised if Carmack did not switch to DX as their primary API.
OpenGL really isn't an option in Windows Vista, and doesn't exist in the 360. In Vista, OpenGL calls are just converted to the DX API, so it would be better for performance to simply code for DX in the first place.
Given the fact that Carmack & co. are programing for 3 platforms, and their primary market (PC) is moving away from OpenGL, it seems logical that it's time he gives up on the OpenGL and embrace DX.
IIRC John has been fairly vocal about the development path of DX and over the past few years, especially in light of the rockier development path of OpenGL. He's said that he has no particular ties to OpenGL, but he chose it because it was more right for him to do it at the time - his comments previously show that he's generally been quite happy with DX9 in particular; I should imaging the primary reason for his not using it for Doom 3 was purely because it wasn't available when he started work on it.
Then how does he write for PS3? As long as they publish to PS3, they'll need an OpenGL engine, and as long as they publish to XB360 they'll need a DirectX engine. And if Vista really does cripple OpenGL in such an attrocious way, I say leave your games at OpenGL and recommend an Optimum PC configuration as not having Vista installed. The Vista market won't be huge for a while, and if it makes games run slower, might progress more slowly than MS would like.
IIRC, as it stands at the moment, IHV's can provide a full, runnable ICD for OpenGL of any version, with the loss of the Aero deskop interface (dropping back to the Windows 2000 inteface); I would estimate that this will probably change by the time Vista is released.Powderkeg said:
Dave Baumann said:
In theory IHV's can provide an ICD for OpenGL in Vista, but it would still require MS's help to get it all to work, and MS has been totally unwilling to help.
MS is trying to kill OpenGL. They left the ARB committee. Based on the WinFX SDK, MS requires a CLR/.NET language, even for drivers. OpenGL doesn't fit well with the WinFX API nor with the new driver LDDM model.
Shifty Geezer said:
Yeah, so?
When Doom went to the N64, I don't recall the N64 having proper OpenGL support.
The point being, if you are going to port an existing game to a new system you will naturally need a renderer tailored for that system, but this shouldn't be considered an issue since it's what every game developer has done as long as they have been making multiplatform games.
That doesn't make sense. I thought LDDM allowed for drivers written in .Net. I don't believe they require it.Powderkeg said:
EDIT: Looking at http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/wdf/default.mspx I don't see any mention of this requirement.
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As I said, it can be done now, with the loss of Aero.Powderkeg said:
Dave Baumann said:
Anything CAN be done.
The question is, how many game developers are going to do it alone, without any help from MS?
And what financial incentive would they have for doing it? Would it be worth it to id Software to invest the time and money to create and provide their own custom OpenGL ICD just to avoid using DX? Would they sell more games? Would it increase their earnings?
Would it increase performance over DX? Would it provide functions or features not present in DX?
Before developers will do this, they must have a justifiable reason. Something more substantial than "Carmack prefers OpenGL."
Powderkeg said:
I don't think it will necessarily require any support from MS. I don't, for instance, see all of the OpenGL workstation apps suddenly going away or being constrained in capability with Vista - at worst I see some compromises being made.
As for whether a games developer will do it is an entirely separate issue since the need for OpenGL development for a PC developer is diminishing rapidly without any "forcing" the issue from MS - they are just providing a better environment for for development and a, now arguably, better API for developers to use. Even some of the crossportability arguments potentially go out the window with Apple switching to Intel - people that want to Mac game can do so far easier by dual booting between OSX and Windows with their new Apples.
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