Mixed Information on Consoles or How I learned to loathe PR *spin off*

[liolio]

What's not clear about the S?

The lithography they use for example, why some people let it slip that performances could be a little smoother only to back pedal (honestly I lost track of the exact matter of affair, the point being that I might not be alone and it is MSFT responsability to clearly present their products no for people to run around tweets and what not around the web). It has new capabilities, I want to know more about it, I'm not alone, they've a little secretive about it.
I suspect things aka the system uses significantly more efficient IPs, most the benefits go into power reduction. V-sync or soft V-sync along with adaptive resolutions are likely to hide away most of the potential performances discrepancies between the old and the new model. It could be a little technical to explain to most people, let alone during a game show. They could have shied from it as they might not want their exiting user base to feel like the have the lesser system.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think the gears guys let it slip, but Microsoft basically doesn't want anyone to think of it as an upgrade in performance, so Phil Spencer said it's an xbox one with hdr. The games can support hdr but otherwise expect your games to run exactly the same. I have a feeling the difference is probably negligible.

 

[AlNom]

They could have shied from it as they might not want their exiting user base to feel like the have the lesser system.

Bingo.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I can't understand how you could believe this is true. The interviews they have done have been very consistent. They've spoken about a lot of details and interview to interview the details are the same. You're focusing on one statement from the eurogamer interview, which to me is not even confusing, and turning that molehill into a mountain. Scorpio is a 4k box just like PS4 and Xbox one are 1080p boxes.

See my reply to Robert above. We have never ever had a console that targeted two resolutions. We don't have devs making a game in 1080p with an improved pixel quality mode for 720p and SD gamers. The question is whether the power of 6TF will be all about 4K resolutions or will there be a 1080p mode in the same game that chooses better pixel shaders etc. over resolution. Or, I guess, will devs not bother with 4K and just do prettier 1080p games?

The question asked can be reconsidered in terms of last gen. "PS3/XB360 have 500 GF/s processing power. You're targeting HD with these. What will the benefits be for me as an SD TV user?" SD versions of PS360 games did not exist. You just got the PS360 game in lower res. We didn't even get supersampling gains some of the times!

So I'm not seeing how you and other are coming to the understanding that there'll be 1080p targeted Scorpio games. The greatest consistency in MS's messaging is that the games will be 4K. And that' not just one quote from one EG interview. There's the entirety of that interview, and subsequent interviews like this one eastmen covered so well...

Project Scorpio

1) They were doing more work on pc and they were looking at what it takes to run games at 4k on pc and they wanted to bring that to consoles. It was 6tflops they had to hit by that standard to bring 4k to consoles

2) 6tflops wasn't happening this year , they looked into it . As they started talking to devs like todd howard they found out about fallout in vr and made bandwidth changes to accomadate that

3) What do you do if you don't have 4k with scorpio . Scorpio is more powerful about 4 and a half times. 6 tflops will change upcoming games in the way they play.

4) will you get better performance - great question , halo 5 has dynamic res so if you run that game on project scorpio it will make out that game at the res and framerate the game allows.

5) That isn't a real selling point , I wouldn't buy it to run those games a little better he said.

6)he got the question if you had a hd tv and not 4k . He said some will do that , if the game is 4k downsampled to 1080p it will look better. He thinks the full experience of scorpio is 4k tv 4k gaming.

7) Some devs will take advantage of the 6tflops in different ways . Mandate from MS on 4k ? They are open to 1080p and upscaling depending on the dev. They support an open box for devs to do what they want .

8) One thing they want to make sure we under stand. Everything that comes out for the xbox family works on all 3 . Its not buying different copies. If you buy an xbox one game , you have the pc and scorpio version

9( a lot of feedback from console owners that a lot of good pc rigs and they have to make a choice on where their friends will be playing. So do you buy it on steam or origin for the pc or ps4 xbox for the console , where are my friends. First party games like halo wars or gears you don't have to pick . Windows friends or xbox friends. You buy the games and you can buy with them. Want to play on your monster rig maxed out or your but on the couch with a controller on the console you can do that.

The blue is to my mind the first clear indication that the box may have 1080p games pushing better pixels rather than 4K. And it may be that all the devs prefer that. But MS have been all about 4K 4K 4K. That's irrefutable (except when they haven't, like above, and we get confused messages!).

 

[Scott_Arm]

See my reply to Robert above. We have never ever had a console that targeted two resolutions. We don't have devs making a game in 1080p with an improved pixel quality mode for 720p and SD gamers. The question is whether the power of 6TF will be all about 4K resolutions or will there be a 1080p mode in the same game that chooses better pixel shaders etc. over resolution. Or, I guess, will devs not bother with 4K and just do prettier 1080p games?

The question asked can be reconsidered in terms of last gen. "PS3/XB360 have 500 GF/s processing power. You're targeting HD with these. What will the benefits be for me as an SD TV user?" SD versions of PS360 games did not exist. You just got the PS360 game in lower res. We didn't even get supersampling gains some of the times!

So I'm not seeing how you and other are coming to the understanding that there'll be 1080p targeted Scorpio games. The greatest consistency in MS's messaging is that the games will be 4K. And that' not just one quote from one EG interview. There's the entirety of that interview, and subsequent interviews like this one eastmen covered so well...

The blue is to my mind the first clear indication that the box may have 1080p games pushing better pixels rather than 4K. And it may be that all the devs prefer that. But MS have been all about 4K 4K 4K. That's irrefutable (except when they haven't, like above, and we get confused messages!).

How is any of that confusing? When Alan Wake came out it was almost SD. Frostbite games are 720p on Xbox One and 900p on PS4. Those boxes were marketed as, "WOW 1080p GRAPHICS!!!!!!" even though all of us were on the forums saying, "They're probably not all really going to be 1080p." So what's the difference between now and then? Why is this confusing. Sure, some devs may choose to do 1080p games on Scorpio, Neo, forgoing 4k. We all know that's a possibility. Marketing the box as 4k is no different than marketing Xbox One and PS4 as 1080p. If this confuses you, I don't know what to say. After PS360 was sub-720p and PS4/X1 was sub-1080p ... Third times the charm?

Edit:
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice ... wtf.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'm very serious. The amount of interviews that have been done, and the breadth of topics covered, people are picking up on one single answer and taking the baby-with-the-bathwater approach saying "messaging" has been terrible.

Nobody is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, people (myself included) were genuinely confused over one statement conflicting with another. Let me ask you a question, when you originally read the following statement (from the Eurogamer interview), what did you think at the time?

Phil Spencer: Then you should buy this box, because Scorpio is not going to do anything for you. Scorpio is designed as a 4K console, and if you don't have a 4K TV, the benefit we've designed for, you're not going to see. Clearly, you can buy Scorpio, and if and when you decide you want to buy a 4K television to take advantage of the increased performance, obviously the console will be ready for you.​

Your answer may well explain why there is such a difference of opinion here.

 

[liolio]

I think the gears guys let it slip, but Microsoft basically doesn't want anyone to think of it as an upgrade in performance, so Phil Spencer said it's an xbox one with hdr. The games can support hdr but otherwise expect your games to run exactly the same. I have a feeling the difference is probably negligible.

Spoiler

I think that Epic is definitely unhappy with MSFT, from UWP to Scorpio which proxy it hit the PC market (upper mid range at release) and the relevance of some of their partners (Nvidia, Intel), but the guy may just have made an unintended mistake who knows

I agree the difference is going to go unnoticed to anyone but DF and the like. The thing is they should be transparent about it as some persons will notice the differences if there any. Simple blind test could have shown the common human (without the crazy expensive capture and processing equipment) that they can't tell the systems apart and that MSFT just did it best bring lower power consumption and new functionality to its system (if that is what they did).

 

[Scott_Arm]

Nobody is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, people (myself included) were genuinely confused over one statement conflicting with another. Let me ask you a question, when you originally read the following statement (from the Eurogamer interview), what did you think at the time?

Phil Spencer: Then you should buy this box, because Scorpio is not going to do anything for you. Scorpio is designed as a 4K console, and if you don't have a 4K TV, the benefit we've designed for, you're not going to see. Clearly, you can buy Scorpio, and if and when you decide you want to buy a 4K television to take advantage of the increased performance, obviously the console will be ready for you.​

Your answer may well explain why there is such a difference of opinion here.

When I originally read the statement I was of the opinion that he's trying to sell Xbox One slims for the next year and a half.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think that Epic is definitely unhappy with MSFT, from UWP to Scorpio which proxy it hit the PC market (upper mid range at release) and the relevance of some of their partners (Nvidia, Intel), but the guy may just have made an unintended mistake who knows

The game is not made by Epic, so nope.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

When I originally read the statement I was of the opinion that he's trying to sell Xbox One slims for the next year and a half.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you just ignored his statement?

 

[Scott_Arm]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you just ignored his statement?

Kind of, yah. I read it, thought about it (which is key), and then read the rest of the interview. A lot of the talk is about making people comfortable with their Xbox One. "No Gamer Left Behind." They're selling the idea that it's still a good product with legs. You can upgrade to scorpio whenever you want. You don't have to get it at launch. Wait until you're ready because you can carry over your library. So if you want an xbox one now, buy it. I think what he's saying is partially true.

I don't expect many games to offer two render paths, one for 4k and one for 1080. It doesn't make sense. You pick one or the other. Say they make a 1080p render path and you're playing on a 1080p tv. The game looks amazing. Then you buy a 4k tv and suddenly the game is rendering at some higher resolution. Well, how do they get there? They need to trade something off. So now I'm running the same game on a newer better tv and the resolution is better but other things look worse. Why are the shadows suddenly jaggy? Where did those neat lighting effects go? It would be a bad decision. The way it's going to work is just like now. The game renders, the console scales to your display.

So, in the end, he's probably part right. Assuming devs target something higher than 1080p, which a lot probably will, the box is going to be rendering a lot of shit your tv can't display. So is it worth it to buy scorpio on a 1080p tv? I don't know, because it's a year and a half away. It's going to be subjective. In any case, he's trying to make people comfortable with their xbox one and comfortable buying one now if they don't have it.

 

[Shortbread]

When I originally read the statement I was of the opinion that he's trying to sell Xbox One slims for the next year and a half.

I can see from both your point of views.

My feeling is this, Scorpio should have been announced at the end of the year or early 2017. All this PR nightmare could have been avoided...

Honestly, Scorpio feels like a hail mary pass on stopping PS4 userbase (dominance) from growing further, especially with Neo/PSVR looming. That pass should of happen closer towards Neo/PSVR launch or later, IMHO.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How is any of that confusing? When Alan Wake came out it was almost SD. Frostbite games are 720p on Xbox One and 900p on PS4.

That's something else to what's being asked. No-one is saying all games will be 4K. Maybe some devs will target 1080p but those games will be 1080p on 4K sets too, like 720p games on existing 1080p consoles. Alan Wake was 720p no matter what display you had. Maybe devs will do that. The question isn't whether some games may choose resolution over pixel quality (although that is something orignally denied). The question is will all/most games purposefully scale down to 1080p to give an optimised 1080p experience. Again, this has never happened before. We have never had games made on consoles where you could choose to play in one res or a lower one with better pixel quality. We have had some variations, some games that have done that, some that run faster at 720p over 1080p when selected. But no console released has targeted two different displays with two different versions for all games. They always targeted the upper limit and the lower limit just made do. We even have examples of wasted processing. 360 on SD didn't even downsample games from HD; it just used less rendering power to render a lower resolution.

Scorpio and 4K is something new and different because plenty of people have 1080p sets and don't feel the need to upgrade. So they have a legitimate question - "if I keep the 1080p set that I'm happy with, will I see any benefit from Scorpio?" For that to be true, Scorpio games will need a 1080p mode that uses 6TF on 2 megapixel images as well as a 4K mode with simpler graphics that renders 8 megapixel images.

You and everyone else complaining aren't understanding the point of a new question about a new era of consoles.

tl;dr PS360 games did not have two render paths, one for HD and one for SD that had better pixel quality. Is there reason to think Scorpio will be different and games will target both 4K and 1080p, with the 1080p version having better pixel quality/framerates/IQ/whatever?

 

[Scott_Arm]

The PR nightmare is totally imagined outside forums like this. I haven't read any press stories complaining about it being confusing. When Xbox One launched, you could find stories everywhere, with people complaining about policies and wondering how everything was going to work. I'm not seeing that for Scorpio.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's covered in EG. You wouldn't expect anyone other than core gamers following E3 to have picked up on it. It's also not a PR nightmare. It's a confusion spawning a discussion where different people have different takes adn views on what should be said and what the affects are. The affect on MS's direct business is none, but their reputation isn't getting any better as a result.

 

[Scott_Arm]

You have created a confusing scenario where there is none, and saying that's a hit to their reputation? Answer me this, what does Uncharted 4 do if you play it on a 720p tv. Does it render at 720p, or does the console output 720p even though the game is still rendering at 1080p? If you can answer that question you can probably clear up this "confusion" yourself.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Kind of, yah.

And this is the trick isn't it, because for Microsoft's messaging to be consistent you have to ignore some of it. Then the question is, which messaging do you ignore? For the most part, latter statements supersede earlier statements so the Eurogamer statement should be the latest final position.

But then the statement about devs have flexibility was reported and many thought this was clarification on the Eurogamer interview (because it made more sense) but then it transpired that the statement about devs having flexibility pre-dated the Eurogamer interview so was the Eurogamer interview clarification that the earlier statement was wrong? Which is why many of us were Then we all went to bed and started hearing the screaming of the lambs.

 

[Scott_Arm]

And this is the trick isn't it, because for Microsoft's messaging to be consistent you have to ignore some of it. Then the question is, which messaging do you ignore? For the most part, latter statements supersede earlier statements so the Eurogamer statement should be the latest final position.

But then the statement about devs have flexibility was reported and many thought this was clarification on the Eurogamer interview (because it made more sense) but then it transpired that the statement about devs having flexibility pre-dated the Eurogamer interview so was the Eurogamer interview clarification that the earlier statement was wrong? Which is why many of us were Then we all went to bed and started hearing the screaming of the lambs.

Look, I work at a huge multi-national company. I listen to executives and sales people yammer on and on all of the time. I do not take what they say at face value. Never assume anything that comes out of their mouths should be interpreted literally. It's the same when you buy anything from anyone. I don't care what the product is. If you walk around taking everything every sales person says to you at face value without thinking about it, you're gonna get fucked.

Also, do devs have the independence to choose what resolution their going to render at with previous and past consoles? In which era of consoles did they not have the independence to choose? Think about that, then think about the new consoles and ask yourself what the answer is, then think about why the question would even have to be asked in the first place.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You have created a confusing scenario where there is none, and saying that's a hit to their reputation? Answer me this, what does Uncharted 4 do if you play it on a 720p tv. Does it render at 720p, or does the console output 720p even though the game is still rendering at 1080p? If you can answer that question you can probably clear up this "confusion" yourself.

It renders 1080p and downscales, or renders 720p native. However, there isn't a 720p version of PS4 for 720p set owners. If there was, and I had a 720p TV and a 720p PS4, and Sony said, "here's a 1080p PS4. It won't look any better on your 720p TV," I wouldn't want one. However, if Sony says, "here's a 1080p PS4 that'll also run games at 720p in better quality than your 720p PS4" then I may be interested.

Again, this is a unique situation. When you appreciate that, you'll appreciate what's being asked. Gamers are wanting a 6 TF 1080p console. Is Scorpio going to be that? If not, 1080p gamers may as well stay with XB1. And that's what Spencer has mostly said. Probably because he doesn't want to say, "yes, Scorpio games will look way better on 1080p sets than XB1. You may as well hold off buying a new console for the next 18 months." Or, it's because Scorpio will mostly be rendering XB1 games in 4K and there'll be virtually no difference when viewing Scorpio and XB1 games side by side on 1080p sets. Which one is it? We still don't know for sure! ;p

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Look, I work at a huge multi-national company. I listen to executives and sales people yammer on and on all of the time. I do not take what they say at face value. Never assume anything that comes out of their mouths should be interpreted literally.

I agree vis-a-vis salesmen but Phil Spencer is not selling Xbox Scorpio. You can't buy Scorpio and you won't be able to buy it for almost a year and a half. His job is to make people want to buy when it is available and giving conflicting information about what it will offer isn't the way to do that.

There are lies, damned lies and salesman's promises but Phil Spencer had basic technical information to convey.

Also, do devs have the independence to choose what resolution their going to render at with previous and past consoles? In which era of consoles did they not have the independence to choose?

Well Microsoft started out with Xbox 360 of having the TRCs mandate 720p MSAA for all games so there is that. But new consoles are a fresh slate. Scorpio is not a fresh slate and Microsoft are promising a lot and maths requiring a bit of stretching.

Microsoft were quite sensitive about resolution (recalling their early messaging when the 1080p vs 720p/900p games started to land) and 6Tf is 3.2 times as powerful as PS4 and 320Gb is 2.4x as much bandwidth as PS4 and 4K requires a 4x increase in everything PS4 does, and remembering there are GCN compatibility issued according to Sebbbi, so yeah - I could well believe that Microsoft would just mandate Scorpio as being a 4K Xbox One with no deviations.