Mixed Information on Consoles or How I learned to loathe PR *spin off*

[iroboto]

Do you have a link? Are you sure she wasn't referring to Pro (as that's how Sony purposely describe it) or AMD's current console generational architectures?

The instance that came to mind when I wrote that comment is that one thread where everyone with an english dictionary was trying to interpret what Lisa Su was saying with regards to whether 1X would receive Ryzen or not.

But I'll look around. My google fu is not keeping up today.

 

[AzBat]

The instance that came to mind when I wrote that comment is that one thread where everyone with an english dictionary was trying to interpret what Lisa Su was saying with regards to whether 1X would receive Ryzen or not.

But I'll look around. My google fu is not keeping up today.

The best examples are what we’ve done in the game consoles with Sony and Microsoft we have built really a very nice franchise. I would say those systems, both the PlayStation 4 and the Xbox One, have been extremely successful by all accounts. And now we’re doing mid-cycle refreshes there.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...ts-credit-suisse-technology-media-and-telecom

Check this Q&A with Phil Spencer & Gamasutra back in April. Just search the keyword "generation"...

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news..._Phil_Spencer_looks_to_the_future_of_Xbox.php

Tommy McClain

 

[iroboto]

https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...ts-credit-suisse-technology-media-and-telecom

Check this Q&A with Phil Spencer & Gamasutra back in April. Just search the keyword "generation"...

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news..._Phil_Spencer_looks_to_the_future_of_Xbox.php

Tommy McClain

Thanks Azbat

 

[Shifty Geezer]

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news..._Phil_Spencer_looks_to_the_future_of_Xbox.php

Plus...

We are set that Scorpio is part of the Xbox One family of devices. You're probably gonna get tired of our PR like, answers on that. But it's true. Like, we have millions of customers that have made a commitment to the Xbox One generation and I want to make sure if you bought the original Xbox One -- and frankly, developers want to support the largest install base of consoles that are out there, so from a financial standpoint they totally see it.

Spencer says Scorpio is the same generation.

 

[Jay]

can of worms, but the only thing MS is committed to long term is backwards compatibility (which is harder than people think), making sure your library goes with you and preferably scales.

forwards compatibly is only a concern for mid gen consoles. I.e. Any game released is guaranteed to work on all consoles in the family.

1X is mid gen therefore the XO family needs bc and fc.
the 1X will never have 1X only games, i initially subscribed to the notion it may after couple years, or when next console comes out, but i don't think that will ever be the case.

so next console will probably be a next gen machine with bc, but without XO fc, i.e it can have exclusives. Doesn't mean every game will be next gen only, only the ones that need to be. In this scenario the 1X still has a longer tail as a budget machine.

i think the cpu related tasks will be deciding factor.

so they blur the line between generations, but doesn't mean it disappears.

regardless of generations, mid gens, doubt will be seeing huge leaps in graphics (like gens in the past) to the previous console if it's released within 4years.
Graphics will scale, game play elements are harder if there's a huge leap in cpu capacity, which i expect I'd be surprised to find anyone that doesn't expect that

 

[Deleted member 11852]

https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...ts-credit-suisse-technology-media-and-telecom

Thanks for posting. I'm not seeing the mid generation clarification there. I know that was iroboto and not you.

Plus... Spencer says Scorpio is the same generation.

No he doesn't. Let's look at that paragraph again - just copying your quote.

We are set that Scorpio is part of the Xbox One family of devices. You're probably gonna get tired of our PR like, answers on that. But it's true. Like, we have millions of customers that have made a commitment to the Xbox One generation and I want to make sure if you bought the original Xbox One -- and frankly, developers want to support the largest install base of consoles that are out there, so from a financial standpoint they totally see it.

He says that Scorpio is part of the Xbox One family of devices. Families are multi-generational. The next sentance really doesn't make any sense taken in isolation but he's talking about Scorpio exclusives (i.e. games that won't run on One and One S) and why developers should [fincially] not want to do Scorpio exlclusives because of the small install base. And in typical Phil Spencer fashion, doesn't actually answer the question.

If anything, Xbox One S is their mid-generation console and he does say that:

So one of the things we did in [Xbox One] S, which was actually kind of a pre-warm for Scorpio, is did something like added HDR support in the middle of the console generation.

I could certainly subscribe to Microsoft thinking of hardware in distinct generations and software as generationless, but they've not explicityly stated that. They've made a bunch of statements, some of which are consistent (like generationless for games), some of which aren't and some which are a bit vague.

edit: and it could be Microsoft consider both S and Scorpio as mid-generational consoles (although they've not explicitly said this) and I'm just being really uncompromising on the definition of the word "middle". But it does bloody mean in the bloody middle!

 

[Recop]

It doesn't matter what MS says... everything screams the mid-gen upgrade in the X :

- No exclusive titles
- Virtually the same CPU than other consoles
- Same boost mode than the Pro (although much better)
- Inconsistent support from the developers
- Targets a niche market
- Etc, etc.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

He says that Scorpio is part of the Xbox One family of devices. Families are multi-generational.

What rot. You really have to give a lot of flexibility to the language to allow a console family to be generational. That's just a grouping word. You have the XBox family, convering all XBoxes, and then a specified subset with the One family. The PS2 family of consoles is PS2, PS2+, PS2 Slim, etc. The secret is in the frickin' number!

Xbox - generation, starting the Xbox family
Xbox 360 - generation.
Xbox One - generation. Third member of the Xbox family. Has family member XB1, XB1S and XB1X.

If Xbox One X was intended to be a discrete device, a next gen machine, a replacement for the Xbox One going forward, a fabulous new console presented as such, it wouldn't be called the One. Very plain and very simple. The branding is as an extension to the Xbox One, an enhanced Xbox One., which is how MS have described it.

Here's another one...

When you say you expect devs to support Xbox One if they ship on Scorpio, what, specifically, do you mean by that?

The requirements themselves don't change, other than there's a new spec and we're saying hey, you've got to support the vertical nature of Xbox One, all the way through Scorpio.

 

[iroboto]

Thanks for posting. I'm not seeing the mid generation clarification there. I know that was iroboto and not you.

Page 4: this was what I was referring to.

Lisa Su

Yes, so the semi-custom business has been a real nice way for us to differentiate ourselves. And it's the idea that if you really want to optimize the system, you want to optimize hardware, software, and system attributes together. The best examples are what we’ve done in the game consoles with Sony and Microsoft we have built really a very nice franchise. I would say those systems, both the PlayStation 4 and the Xbox One, have been extremely successful by all accounts. And now we’re doing mid-cycle refreshes there.

Lisa Su doesn't represent MS, so her words can be anything. She doesn't market for them or such, so her words aren't necessarily clarifying anything for MS or the consumer base for MS, but if Lisa Su is free-handing the wording of both these consoles as having the same purpose as being a mid-cycle device, then once again, I can't see why other people aren't allowed to feel the same way.

I get that people want to label things, or put things into a comfy box. And at times yes, people come across as too judgemental and put their own values into labels; but I'm not necessarily sure that is the case here.

360 had changes throughout it's console life as well, adding HDMI into later models. Most of these changes to the console are there to align with what's being sold in the related market. Like 360s inclusion of HDMI, in later revisions, we saw XBO get a UHD drive and HDR. I don't know if that's considered a generational push or just accommodating to the features that are gaining mass adoption now, without having to wait for next gen.

Scorpio just feels like an extension of that, as does 4Pro, and PS4 slim, that both contain HDR. Scorpio and 4Pro are built to accommodate the 4K HDR screens that are now the new norm, while not ending the current generation. The only difference being that Sony had no interest in including UHD as part of their revision.

We may not see a mid gen refresh next cycle mainly because there likely won't be any need to adopt 8K for a very very very long time.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

What rot. You really have to give a lot of flexibility to the language to allow a console family to be generational. That's just a grouping word. You have the XBox family, convering all XBoxes, and then a specified subset with the One family.

Forget generation then, go with platform and platform as in backwards and forwards compatible platform. Microsoft narrative with Xbox One has, unusually, been mostly consistent and the reason I'm more inclined to accept it with less challenge (than pretty much all of their earlier messaging about just about everything) is that it's not some PR rhetoric, cross-platform and forwards compatibility are a couple of terms for a multitude of technologies (like UWP) that Microsoft's engineers have been working on for years.

They want 'generationless' like PC, where you can release new hardware and not lose the existing customer base. In such an envionrment the term 'generation' loses conventional meaning as it's been applied to the console industry since the 1970s.

Page 4: this was what I was referring to.

Ah cool, thanks. I didn't notice it was a multi-page article!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You can call it what you like. This discussion has been about Kotaku's expectations, and PS4P and XB1X not meeting expectations. Whether you call XB1X a new Family Member or a Mid-gen console or anything, it's 1) unlike any console before - it's definitely not a new console 4 years on in the same way XB360 was a new console 5 years on from Xbox, and 2) Didn't not receive exclusive games at launch and isn't getting any any time soon, such that Kotaku can't look at the XB1X exclusives and be disappointed in a lack of visual progress. Maybe we'll see XB1X run XBTwo's games in 4 years time, but that doesn't change anything about what people's expectations should have been based on MS's PR. They weren't promising any 'next-gen' experience. They were promising XB1 games improved, on their 'enhanced Xbox One' hardware. There's no way any gaming journalist, for whom these boxes are their life, could have read MS's PR over the past year and imagined something like a typical new console release.

 

[function]

X1X clearly isn't a next gen system in the traditional sense.

But if X1X continues to be made and be supported after X1S, then it's not just a mid gen bump confined to the traditional notion either, because it'll be shaping the idea of what a generation is.

And if X1X sells well enough (and sells software well enough) it certainly will last beyond X1S. It's fast enough and has enough memory to handle significant growth in minimum requirements.

What MS need to do now is get the price down. I still think 399 during 2h 2018. E3 would be ideal.

 

[Recop]

But if X1X continues to be made and be supported after X1S, then it's not just a mid gen bump confined to the traditional notion either, because it'll be shaping the idea of what a generation is.

What's the traditional notion of a mid gen upgrade ? It's the first time we're really seeing it...

 

[bunge]

What's the traditional notion of a mid gen upgrade ? It's the first time we're really seeing it...

The Sega 32x?

 

[function]

What's the traditional notion of a mid gen upgrade ? It's the first time we're really seeing it...

Confined to the traditional notion [of a generation]. It'll be something new, and trying to call it "current gen" (like the PS4Pro) or next gen (in the way the PS5 will be) won't fit and will lose something whichever way you go.

It'll be more like iPhone generations, or PC OS generations. In those spaces every generation is a transitional generation, and things like features, libraries and interface principles shift across them to carry the user.

MS's BC lab, developer relations, OS and graphics units are all working together towards this. I don't see why MS would abandon this principle and reset.

 

[Recop]

Confined to the traditional notion [of a generation]. It'll be something new, and trying to call it "current gen" (like the PS4Pro) or next gen (in the way the PS5 will be) won't fit and will lose something whichever way you go.

Ok, but i have no problem to put the X in the current gen category. No new technology, just the same tech than other consoles at higher specs.

The gap between the XB1/Pro is larger than that between the Pro/X, yet people have no problem to put the Pro/XB1 in the same gen...

 

[function]

Ok, but i have no problem to put the X in the current gen category. No new technology, just the same tech than other consoles at higher specs.

The gap between the XB1/Pro is larger than that between the Pro/X, yet people have no problem to put the Pro/XB1 in the same gen...

I think that's possibly down to the way Sony have insisted that Pro isn't a new generation, or even any kind of change to the status quo in terms of what a generation is and how it ends. Generations are as much about markets and software sales as power. Nintendo have a crazy knack of showing this. If Sony had used the same language MS had, put in place an impressive BC system, and maybe chucked in some more ram for some better assets (so Pro could be a step up across the board compared to PS4/X1), then I think people may be thinking Sony were changing how they saw generations too.

In terms of technology X1X isn't a massive shift from X1, but under the hood there are lot of architectural enhancements and refinements that have come about because more time (and money) was available (the same could be said of Pro too). While smaller than a typical generational shift in the console space, considering such changes as generations of hardware in the PC or phone space is considered normal.

Generations as we know them have worked very well for Sony - they've dominated all but one of the generations they've been involved with. For MS, it's their ability to constantly evolve that's been their strength in OSes and in their console successes / bullet dodging.

 

[Recop]

Nintendo have a crazy knack of showing this.

It's not the same thing... Nintendo always changed the concept.

put in place an impressive BC system

But BC was already on XB1...

considering such changes as generations of hardware in the PC or phone space is considered normal.

But we all know that the next Xbox will start a new generation. The console market will never fallow the same rythm. It's obvious. I mean consoles have a very restricted field of activity. Computers and phones basically serve for everything. The demand will always be high for such products. Everyone needs a computer or a phone. The same can't be said for consoles...

At best, we should see this pattern : PS5/ PS5+/ PS6 and so on.

 

[function]

@Recop, be careful with building arguments against microquotes, context is key in complex conversations!

It's not the same thing... Nintendo always changed the concept.

Yes, to allow them to approach the market - often an existing one - in a different way and to establish a software base.

But BC was already on XB1...

And demonstrates MS's approach to moving away from hard termination of libraries. X1X BC is not the same as X1 BC either, improves vastly on X1 game IQ, frame rates and dynamic resolutions, and it improves 360 BC with further enhanced IQ and massively boosted resolutions.

This is ongoing work for MS. Sony don't have anything like this level of this technology (which is in both the hardware and in software) developed, as far as we know. And it's taken MS years to get here and lots of well paid staff.

But we all know that the next Xbox will start a new generation. The console market will never fallow the same rythm. It's obvious. I mean consoles have a very restricted field of activity. Computers and phones basically serve for everything. The demand will always be high for such products. Everyone needs a computer or a phone. The same can't be said for consoles...

At best, we should see this pattern : PS5/ PS5+/ PS6 and so on.

- We don't know the next Xbox will kill X1 and X1X at the same time.
- The console market doesn't need to follow the same rhythm of phones and GPUs, it just needs to change somewhat. MS have shown they have the technical expertise and the willingness to accommodate such a change.
- Consoles have a less restricted field of expertise than anything else that plugs into your TV, bar a PC.
- Lots of people doing without PCs these days...
- No-one needs a new phone every two years, unless they're a clumsy fuck!
- No-one will need a console every two years either. No-one needs a PS4Pro or X1X. No-one will need to replace their PS4 in 2019. No-one needed to replace their 360 or PS4 either back in 2013. No-one needed to upgrade from a 2500K or a GF 580 Ti. But hundreds of millions of gamers have wanted to!

Edit: Personally, I hope the market decides not to throw away its software every six years in pursuit of a largely illusory and always temporary "jump" in quality that only comes about because of enforced stagnation.

 

[Recop]

And demonstrates MS's approach to moving away from hard termination of libraries.

And ? I see that as a way to distinguish your console from the competition. Not necesseraly a move to blur the lines between generations. I mean, we are talking about 360 games...

Otherwise, XB1 games work on X as well as PS4 games work on PS4Pro...

X1X BC is not the same as X1 BC either, improves vastly on X1 game IQ, frame rates and dynamic resolutions, and it improves 360 BC with further enhanced IQ and massively boosted resolutions.

Yeah and the X is vastly more powerful than the XB1. It's obvious and expected.

This is ongoing work for MS. Sony don't have anything like this level of this technology (which is in both the hardware and in software) developed, as far as we know. And it's taken MS years to get here and lots of well paid staff.

What makes you think that this technology is in part hardware based ? Also, BC would probably be a nightmare with the PS3 and its very unique hardware. Let's see what Sony will do with PS4 games.

We don't know the next Xbox will kill X1 and X1X at the same time.

As the PS4 didn't immediately kill the PS3. It doesn't matter. Unless you think that the X will survive during the whole new generation ?

The console market doesn't need to follow the same rhythm of phones and GPUs, it just needs to change somewhat.

It already changed... and Sony was the first to bring the change...

MS have shown they have the technical expertise and the willingness to accommodate such a change.

I don't know of what you are talking about... also, don't forget that the fat PS3 was able to run PS2 games... nothing new here.

No-one needs a new phone every two years, unless they're a clumsy fuck!

Sure, but everyone needs a phone... this is why it works for phones and computers. When you sell phones, your market is the whole population. When you sell consoles, your market is much smaller. So, the probability that someone needs a phone for a real reason is far higher... not to mention that those sales are closely related to your phone operator : it's not rare that it will offer you the last phone for 1 dollar.

A console is purely superficial. You get a console only to play.

But hundreds of millions of gamers have wanted to

And they waited several years for that... not the same rhythm than computers or phones, once again. Also, let's see how many X MS will sell... and it will be interesting to know how consumers behave now that they know a mid-gen refresh is possible.

Seriously, what do you expect ? A new console every 2 years ? It won't work and you know it... as i've already said, we won't see something different that what happened this gen at best : new consoles, consoles+, next generation and so on.

The real future will be dematerialized consoles. That's all...