*merge/rename* The Importance of an H.D.D. (e.g. caches, streaming etc)

[deepbrown]

I think that's pretty rich considering it's coming from you. You do exactly that in every PS3-related thread.

Hey i don't want to make it a fight. It was my fault in the first place. Sorry guys.

But I think the way the convo is going is healthy. But I feel many are talking about the size of the levels and how fast they load.

I just wonder...as textures get even more high-res...more than they are now, would an HDD be needed for them...that is if it wasn't there, the pop-in would be more noticable? Or is it of no advantage whatso ever?

We don't even have to talk of current consoles...if they have other things holding them back, such as memory. For future consoles, will an HDD be necessary?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I just wonder...as textures get even more high-res...more than they are now, would an HDD be needed for them...that is if it wasn't there, the pop-in would be more noticable? Or is it of no advantage whatso ever?

You have to understand that this depends from game to game, how often does the game need new textures? What quality are they? Etc.

Having a HDD, will always be an advantage, you will always be able to stream faster, thus reducing potential pop-in

.if they have other things holding them back, such as memory.

An increase in RAM would reduce pop-in if you keep the same quality textures as before (because you could store more at the same time, thus covering bigger radius), if the game is, like on consoles made to be "optimal" a future console having 4gb RAM doesn't necessarily need to have less pop-in because texture quality would increase a long with that. Theoretically, anyway.

For future consoles, will an HDD be necessary?

That depends on what kind of media format we are going to use. Its basically all about how fast you can stream data, if the media format in the future will be fast "enough", there wont be a "need" for an HDD.

Then again you could always argue that you never can get fast enough streaming speed, but at some point it stops being important.

 

[ERP]

I think talking about streaming games and HD is really a red herring.

Where a harddrive becomes a necessity is where it's used to persist rather than cache. Either through an explicit install step, which I hope we don't end up with on consoles, or through content generated, downloaded or player modified during play.

 

[Nesh]

Successful ellimination of pop-in (where it's not an LOD issue) also needs effective management of the resource caching on HDD. If you want a texture and it's not in RAM, you have to load it. HDD's aren't instantaneous and by the time it's loaded, the frame can need to be drawn. Ideally you prefetch the data before the textures are accessed, and you can do that with optical disks. Last gen did it on a lot of titles. The difference is you have to prefetch way in advance to accomodate higher latency, and you can't load so much at a time, so would be looking at less variety.

But in conclusion, an HDD doesn't solve pop-in, nor is an HDD needed for streaming content, as last-gen amply demonstrates.

Can you help me with few titles that used HDD to stream data from? I am trying to think of some.

 

[Nesh]

Well the question has already been answered really, or at least seems to be.

GTA4 is coming out on DVD, and looks to be equal in terms of size and graphical fidelity to the PS3 version. All the ridiculous arguments about how this would not be possible, and we would see 8x increase in game sizes seem dead in the water.

We'll have to wiat until the final verdict is in, and of course, people will still argue that Rockstar catered to the lowest common denominator (which is true), but really with the announcement of GTA4 on a single DVD, I pretty much consider this issue to be put to bed.

As for the lowest common denominator thing, well I guess the Sony hardcore are going to have to realize that because of BR, and the high cost of the system, this is going to be the case for almost all games. 360 has the largest install base, and this isn't going to change any time soon.

I ve read somewhere that the developers said they are dealing with some limitations due to lack of bigger storage and HDD (in some consumers') 360's with what they are trying to do with GTA4.

The game will be equal on both consoles but thats because they will try not to surpass what is allowed on the 360 and make the same exact game on the PS3

 

[function]

I ve read somewhere that the developers said they are dealing with some limitations due to lack of bigger storage and HDD (in some consumers') 360's with what they are trying to do with GTA4.

Link? Getting some specifics would really help this discussion along.

The game will be equal on both consoles but thats because they will try not to surpass what is allowed on the 360 and make the same exact game on the PS3

Well, Rockstar weren't shy about making Xbox GTA look better than it did on the PS2 (though it was hardly a showcsae) despite a much smaller userbase. Also, given that the PC won't have a problem matching any kind of storage that the PS3 has (and has much more powerful high end systems to boot), it's not like any improved assets would be limited to use on the PS3.

 

[Nesh]

Link? Getting some specifics would really help this discussion along.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/785/785342p1.html
http://www.gamesradar.com/us/ps3/ga...sectionId=1006&releaseId=20060313153735796095
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=111775

Well, Rockstar weren't shy about making Xbox GTA look better than it did on the PS2 (though it was hardly a showcsae) despite a much smaller userbase. Also, given that the PC won't have a problem matching any kind of storage that the PS3 has (and has much more powerful high end systems to boot), it's not like any improved assets would be limited to use on the PS3.

These imporvements were extremely few and unimportant. You have to notice that these didnt have much to do with the overal experience. Also the XBOX could do much better graphics by a long shot. Yet the improvements/differences were minimal. They arent even worth talking about. Both versions were almost identical games.

Rockstar though doesnt have a few issues with few "visual enhancments" or "extras" (which were the usual differences between ports and this gen things are no different). Size usually relates to the content, context and experience you want to create.

And in this case trying to add a lot more contend (just a rough guess probably bigger world size) for one platform it could make each version very much different and I dont think Rockstar would want to offer two versions of GTA that differ too much with one lacking compared to the other. That would be annoying especially to those who wont be able to get the other one

 

[Cheezdoodles]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/785/785342p1.html
http://www.gamesradar.com/us/ps3/ga...sectionId=1006&releaseId=20060313153735796095
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=111775

Those are all from the same source, and they even managed to read it wrong.

Its based on the Game Informer interview where what was said was "Both plattforms have their own challenges"-.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can you help me with few titles that used HDD to stream data from? I am trying to think of some.

Sorry, no idea. Dunno where that info would be found. Presumably XB did it a lot. From the sounds of it texture streaming on PS3 isn't happening yet at all either. That doesn't really detract from one's idea though, that when you know you have an HDD available, why would you duplicate data across a BRD to speed up streaming instead of use the HDD? That to me seems a rash explanation for an 18 GB disk space, rather than just accepting that these devs are using that much, and yes, it is compressed data too because that's faster to load. And the point of disk size is off-topic for the thread too. Whether the data is duplicated or not is a matter of texture streaming rather than disc capacity. The suggestion here would be if BRD's larger capacity would have a benefit for texture streaming, as the OP said giving PS3 an edge in that respect. And in that respect, as the PS3 has an HDD as standard, I think the points moot - you'd be better off using the HDD than duplicate data!

 

[function]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/785/785342p1.html
http://www.gamesradar.com/us/ps3/ga...sectionId=1006&releaseId=20060313153735796095
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=111775

Those are all links to stories which source from the same story on the C+VG website. The last link you provided, from gamepro, even manages to switch the people talking, so that the question because a statement by the Rockstar chap!!

Truly appalling web journalism.

Here is a quote from the C+VG website:

During an interview with our partners in crime at Official PlayStation Magazine, Rockstar's creative vice president Dan Houser was asked: "On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format. Does that create limitations?" To which he replied, "Yep."

Now go and look at the last link you provided. Lol!

"Yep" to a general question is hardly specific information. He goes on to say there are limitations caused by both platforms etc.

No doubt a lack of HDD to use as a buffer does affect streaming, and DVD could be limiting the game size, but you have no indication of this from the link you provided.

These imporvements were extremely few and unimportant. You have to notice that these didnt have much to do with the overal experience. Also the XBOX could do much better graphics by a long shot. Yet the improvements/differences were minimal. They arent even worth talking about. Both versions were almost identical games.

Rockstar though doesnt have a few issues with few "visual enhancments" or "extras" (which were the usual differences between ports and this gen things are no different). Size usually relates to the content, context and experience you want to create.

And in this case trying to add a lot more contend (just a rough guess probably bigger world size) for one platform it could make each version very much different and I dont think Rockstar would want to offer two versions of GTA that differ too much with one lacking compared to the other. That would be annoying especially to those who wont be able to get the other one

This isn't specifically what you were talking about in the quote I responded to. I don't really have a problem with the idea that Rockstar what to release essentially the same game (at least initally) - but they will be prepared to fiddle with graphcis and audio if it's easy to do so.

 

[function]

Those are all from the same source, and they even managed to read it wrong.

Its based on the Game Informer interview where what was said was "Both plattforms have their own challenges"-.

Beat me to it!

Trusting things you read on the internet, that are reported after travelling through the grapevine, can be risky business!

 

[infinity4]

could we expect handheld consoles to have HDD in future or any similar storage device???

 

[Kryton]

could we expect handheld consoles to have HDD in future or any similar storage device???

As I understand it, the problem is seek times not read speed. With a DVD, the laser has to refocus on the disc once moved (a HD head does this faster). As you've got flash memory where seek time is non-existant, I doubt it.

Also, the power required to maintain the spinning disc's momentum is far higher than that of (non-voltatile) flash.

 

[Nesh]

Those are all links to stories which source from the same story on the C+VG website. The last link you provided, from gamepro, even manages to switch the people talking, so that the question because a statement by the Rockstar chap!!

Truly appalling web journalism.

Here is a quote from the C+VG website:

I posted all three links for the obvious reason that each journalists presents the same info differently. Didnt provide three inks to show three different sources

Now go and look at the last link you provided. Lol!

"Yep" to a general question is hardly specific information. He goes on to say there are limitations caused by both platforms etc.

No doubt a lack of HDD to use as a buffer does affect streaming, and DVD could be limiting the game size, but you have no indication of this from the link you provided.

Whoever disagreed or expected that PS3 didnt have limitations please raise your hand.......I said please raise your hand..........no one?

All three links refer to Rockstar's statement regarding HDD and storage.

And they all point towards this quote: On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format

Well you decided to stick to the "yep".

I prefer to stick with "with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage" Thats more informative than "yep".

This isn't specifically what you were talking about in the quote I responded to. I don't really have a problem with the idea that Rockstar what to release essentially the same game (at least initally) - but they will be prepared to fiddle with graphcis and audio if it's easy to do so.

Thats what I was talking about though. You only misinterpreted it and tried to explain later.

 

[function]

Think we might be going round in circles here.

Whoever disagreed or expected that PS3 didnt have limitations please raise your hand.......I said please raise your hand..........no one?

Very good. The point is he's trying to avoid specifics and finger pointing, while you're trying to use the interview for specifics and finger pointing.

All three links refer to Rockstar's statement regarding HDD and storage.

And they all point towards this quote: On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format

Well you decided to stick to the "yep".

I prefer to stick with "with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage" Thats more informative than "yep".

I was pointing out that all he said was "yep" when the QUESTION HE WAS ASKED was being attributed to him by gamepro as a QUOTE BY HIM when it wasn't.

And why are you deciding to "stick to", in your bolded sections, a loaded, specific, finger pointing section of a QUESTION put to the Rockstar guy (by the Official Playstation Magazine) that he tries to diffuse by avoiding specifics on then saying both platforms are presenting challenges?

Do you actually understand which part of the text is coming from the interviewer at the Official Playstation Magazine, and which is coming from the guy at Rockstar? Quoting part of the question indicates strongly that you don't, and that you're making the same mistake that gampro - who you linked to - did.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

And they all point towards this quote: On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format

Thats not a quote from rockstar. Thats the question asked by OPM.

Edit: function beat me to it

 

[Nesh]

Oh ok then. Sorry for the confusion. my mistake. I thought he said that and then OPM asked iif these will be a lmitation and answered yes.

 

[Blackraven]

MS should have made the HDD standard across-the-board in the first place so that there won't be a need to create a Core version without the standard HDD.

But since this has happened, well....I don't know what to think. The PS3 won't have a problem with this as HDD is a standard feature.

I guess that if I were Rockstar though, I would release an X360 version that will require the presence of an HDD. As they say in my native local language: "Pasensiya na ang mga bumili ng Core X360 pero kailangan niyo nang bumili ng Hard Drive ".

By that way, it's either you buy the MS Hard Drive or you can forget about even running this game on your Xbox.

It's painful (to core X360 users w/o Hard Drive) but that's the best solution atm.(unless someone else has brighter ideas)

 

[Blackraven]

Strange, I couldn't find the EDIT button
EDIT: I still find it strange that MS would leave out a Standard HDD for Core.

Xbox 1 seemed to have it as standard and that helped quite a lot for games that supported HDD usage.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Strange, I couldn't find the EDIT button
EDIT: I still find it strange that MS would leave out a Standard HDD for Core.

Xbox 1 seemed to have it as standard and that helped quite a lot for games that supported HDD usage.

Hard drives "never" go down in price, unlike silicon. Not strange at all