Matrox meeting , no benchmarks but :)

ben6

Regular
I'm not going to gvie any guesses on performance , as the boards I played on this morning are beta. However here's what I got from my meeting (excluding anything that might be considered um off the record)

1. Displacement mapping absolutely rocks . Adding arbitrary geometry to figures or in outdoors terrain is a serious step in the right direction.
2. FAA absolutely also rocks. Swimming textures in buildings in FS 2002? GONE.
3. 10bit color was a little bit of a disappointment. Because the LCD monitors that were used in the demo, it downsampled to 8bit color. While there is a difference in banding, it was less apparent than I expected. When I test the card with 3 CRTs I'll take a deeper look into it.
4. It will not be a Quake3 Geforce4 Ti killer with the way most reviewers run the benchmarks. Of course with 80 million transistors on a .15um process, there's likely to be a lot of heat, and it's unlikely that the Parhelia 512 will have a more than 300mhz gclock.
5. Having said that, Matrox suggests, and I agree with them 100% that performance in Quake3 is fast enough today. Turn on FSAA (games with stencil buffers have issues with FAA) anisotropic filtering and Surround Gaming , and it should be completely playable
6.Surround gaming absolutely rocks. I got to play Quake3 and on 3 monitors it was absoletly smooth. One little note, while playing , I didn't consciously look to my right or left, but in my peripheral vision caught movement on the extra monitors and I was able to react without thinking
7. Matrox suggests, and after walking around the show floor, I agree, that DX 8 games will be more prevalent this Christmas. The number of DX9 games will be very limited if any at all. Thus their decision to go with DX8.1
8. If you have a chance and are at E3 go to the AMD/Matrox/Alienware lot (last year's G.O.D) lot , take it. Soldier Of Fortune II and F1 2002 makes great use of surround gaming . The HUGE monitors for the racing game are the way to play a racing game.
9. Parhelia 512 can multipass render . 8 textures per pixel is possible on a Parhelia
10. Review cards are likely to be sent out in early June. WOOHOO!!! Final retail boards will likely be out in late June/early July.
12. Did I mention Displacement Mapping totally rocks ??? Watching a character be N-Patched , then displacement mapped, makes a totally different look
13. To give you a sense of how powerful the pixel shaders are capable of being. The ocean demo with a shark, the bass, a school of fish? Everything is bumpmapped and using 4 textures per pixel. The Bass consists of 8 pixel shaders with 100 pixel shader instructions.
14. The anisotropic filtering did sharpen Quake3. The Parhelia is capable of dynamically allocating 64 texture samples in a pass . In other words 1 pixel with 64 sample anisotropic filtering, or alternatively 4 pixels with 16 sample aniso in a single clock.
15. Performance hit with 16x FAA in one application (no numbers, sorry) was about 20% with their 4x FSAA around 50% . Sorry , can't say more.
16 Only one mode of FAA 16x at the moment.


Any questions?

Tomorrow, Nvidia...
 
so, Matrox is back in game? :)

I didn't find anything really negative from your post, so you must be quite impressed...

did you have any talk about different card versions and/or prices to be expected?
 
ben6 said:
2. FAA absolutely also rocks. Swimming textures in buildings in FS 2002? GONE.

You might want to revise that statement since FAA does absolutely NOTHING to the inside of triangles (one of the big plus points according to Matrox) so FAA is not going to solve swimming textures (whats your definition of a swimming texture ?). Quite possibly it fixed the aliasing on the edges of the simplistic single block buildings that Microsoft FS2002 uses...

K-
 
So far, the cards are still being finalized. They did say that there will be a 128MB card for ~399 but this is not finalized. Matrox has traditionally never disclosed clockspeeds for their cards . As to AGP 8x , it's in the featureset to support up to 8x AGP.
 
Ben6: excelent preview. Thanks for that. :)

And if their 128MB version is in $400 range, I expect rumoured 64MB version start from $300 or lower.

nggalai: I like that point very much too. :)
 
As to AGP 8x , it's in the featureset to support up to 8x AGP.

I think there is a difference between 'supporting AGP8X' and actually utilising it, I've seen a similar thing elsewhere.

However, 'ol Fuad has sprung this one up:

We contacted Matrox yesterday and the company has confirmed that the Parhelia 512 is an AGP 4X part.

However, bear in mind that cards based on the technology will be fully compatible with AGP 8X motherboards that have started to put their heads above the parapet.

Matrox said that one of the reasons why its chip is AGP 4X part is because it is shipping Parhelia before broad AGP 8X introduction and this is something that we can agree, since Intel hasn't launched its AGP 8X hardware and the brood of Chipzilla chipsets is mighty indeed.
 
Kristof
Hrm my definition is shimmering , like on the road in a driving game or on the airport runways in Flight Simulator 2002 , or the buildings. The FAA eliminated the distracting building "shimmering" and the shimmering on the airport runways...
 
ben6 said:
9. Parhelia 512 can multipass render.

Well, which GPU can't? :)

8 textures per pixel is possible on a Parhelia

I guess you can have 1000 textures per pixel by using multipass rendering :)

The question is wheather Perhelia can do loopback or pipeline combining for a single pixel calculation.
 
ram , excellent question. At the moment, I'm not 100% sure, as I asked them specifically if loopback can be done to render 8 textures per pixel in a pass. Matrox PR's answer was : Yes , because of our texture caches , loopback is possible . However, I was talking to someone else asking the same question , his answer : yes we support multipass rendering. I haven't had a chance to chat with him (he's on their devrel team) since. I will endeavor to ask tomorrow when I go back to E3 (ah fun!!) So for now, I would take the conservative approach to the question.
 
Oh BTW warum Ich habe eine email message en deustche? (bah been a LONG time since I practiced my german) why did I get topic reply email in German?
 
THXS BEN6

I PLAY NASCAR RACING 2002,SO THIS CARD IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT GAME INTO SOMETHING REAL SPECIAL. PRICE ON 256DDR VERSION. IF THERE IS ONE?
 
Considering that Matrox has Surround Gaming now:

I have always hated those thick frames around monitors. CRT and even LCD monitors have somekind of ugly frames around them. Is there or is there ever going to be a totally frameless monitor for sale? I'd buy that instantly and immediately throw this 17"-CRT-super-thick-framed clumsy monster out of the window.

Surround Gaming, and gaming in general, would be a much better experience with totally frameless monitors.
 
I've been messing around with a few mirrors.. the concept is there .. i skewed a band the side of the left and right monitor so there's minimal stretching of the image

once i get the card and additional monitors this summer i'll try and get around the problem

i'll go to the hardware shop and cut some mirrors

that's pretty low-tech and i know it, but eh , if it does the job
 
SlmDnk said:
Considering that Matrox has Surround Gaming now:

I have always hated those thick frames around monitors. CRT and even LCD monitors have somekind of ugly frames around them. Is there or is there ever going to be a totally frameless monitor for sale? I'd buy that instantly and immediately throw this 17"-CRT-super-thick-framed clumsy monster out of the window.

Surround Gaming, and gaming in general, would be a much better experience with totally frameless monitors.

sure but that has always been a limiting factor of LCD momitors, wha is required frame wise to support the monitor size.

Gamegear v GBA anyone?
 
ben6 said:
]14. The anisotropic filtering did sharpen Quake3. The Parhelia is capable of dynamically allocating 64 texture samples in a pass . In other words 1 pixel with 64 sample anisotropic filtering, or alternatively 4 pixels with 16 sample aniso in a single clock.

Are you sure on this one ("in other words...")? Just because the chip can sample 64 texels a clock it does not necessary mean it can apply them 8:1 anisotropic filtered to one pixel ...

?
 
Two things here. The first is about the 64 SuperSample filtering. Ben probably got his info from a Matrox rep concerning how the filtering can be applied (re: ram's q). I know this doesn't guarantee that the statement is correct, but hopefully Matrox own folks know.

The second thing concerns the 16x FAA. I'm not sure exactly how they're implementing the algorithm for it, but if you look at the 3DMark2K1SE dragon shots it doesn't appear to be based on polygons. It seems more likely that it's looking for color differences within the final image in order to determine visible edges (contrasting areas, which makes sense, since these are where most apparent jaggies show up). Look closely at the image showing which pixels from the dragon are being addressed to see what I mean. Based on this, the Parhelia could very well take care of problems within textures, so long as the pixels in question out of the final image were determined by their FAA's logic to need AA'd.
 
5. Having said that, Matrox suggests, and I agree with them 100% that performance in Quake3 is fast enough today. Turn on FSAA (games with stencil buffers have issues with FAA) anisotropic filtering and Surround Gaming , and it should be completely playable

To me this is simply NOT an encouraging statement. How can you people read this and say "wow matrox has finaly released a GAMING card."

My Radeon 8500 plays Q3 with Smoothvision and 16x Ansio like a bat out of hell. GF4 Ti's can crush Q3 with FSAA. What is the big hoopla? If *should be playable* with these settings, with a little nicer quality.. that tells me this card is a DOG. It is going to get crushed by the next wave of games. and is going to get EMBARRASED by the NV30 and R300...


Why the hell would ANY *gamer* want this card when we have This on the way.....

http://www.theinquirer.net/2502table.htm

It may not be totally accurate... but its going to be close. These guys need to knock it out of the park, and i just dont think they are. Thei Quality is just not going to be better IMHO than these next wave of cards.
 
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