Latest NV30 Info

[Geeforcer]

There was a stupid rumour talk, nothing more. They've never said that.

I am aware of that. The question is, what makes R350 rumor talk any better? The point I was making that just as some people talk about R350 as "the answer", I think they are making the same mistake as others made last year with similar talk about R(V)250.

What are the indications that ATI will move away from their current routine and release a second high-end chip within a year, besides the wishful thinking?

 

[Dave Baumann]

Do you think that there may not actually be an R350?

Instead, ATi release RV350 (currently being dev'd in Toronto I think) as the first mainstream DX9 part (DX9.1???) this coming Spring and until R400 next Summer/Fall, they stay in contention at the high end with a variant of R300 (~400MHz clockspeed, DDR-II?).

Well, R(V)350 is probably likely to be their .13um version if it does occur, so whether its pitched at the high or low end (not V or V) may purely depend on where they think it can end up depending on the competion.

However, the point I'm getting at is there seems to be some belief that ATI is going to magically alter their proir MO to "answer" NV30, and I'm far from convinced that will happen - IMO the most that would probably happen in the short term is is a speed bumped R300 with DDR-II.

What happens beyond that probably depends on where they see their next parts in terms of DX compliancy. If R350 is DX9.1 then its going to be well into next year before that appears as VS/PS3.0 have only recently been finalised. This also being the case what will happen to R400? Is it DX10? If so, will it be pushed back to DX10's timeframe (most likely 2004) or, if they feel its less than DX10 will it become their DX9.1 part?

There's too many unknowns now, but MS'd plans for DX will likely slow down major architecture revisions, IMO, and I don't think there is sufficient information on ATI's next chips / refreshes (if there are any) to conclude they would be offered up as rivals to NV30 in NV30's release timeframe.

 

[overclocked]

I know that DX9 is not even out but are there any games that are on the way that you guys know of that seems to make really use of the feature set?

You know some game like Aquanox that is more like a tech demo game...
Not a god game but something that could be a bundle or something.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Dave,

Do you think that there may not actually be an R350?

Instead, ATi release RV350 (currently being dev'd in Toronto I think) as the first mainstream DX9 part (DX9.1???) this coming Spring and until R400 next Summer/Fall, they stay in contention at the high end with a variant of R300 (~400MHz clockspeed, DDR-II?).

MuFu.

My initial guess MuFu is that the R300 life cycle will look similar to the R200 life cycle. In the spring of this year, ATI offered a slight "refresh" of the 8500 in the form of a 128MB BGA version (and a few companies offering parts clocked at 300Mhz). The RV250 was simply redesigned to reduce manufacturing costs.

Following this pattern, we would be led to believe that there will be a spring "refresh" of the R300, likely in the form of increased clock speeds and DDR-II memory, but nothing more. Then, in the fall, we would look for the R400, and an RV350 that is a .13u version of the R300 core, tweaked for lower transistor count (perhaps by removing some functions that were found to be unused for the most part) and higher clock speeds. That would replace the 9500/9500 Pro chips as the mainstream/budget DX9 parts, being cheaper than even those two. R400 would then be a DX9.1 or DX10 part and take the new seat as performance leader.

However, as Dave pointed out, the releases of DX versions look as if they're going to really monkey with things. I doubt that R400 would be released as an 8 x 2 version of the R300 supporting PS/VS 3.0. ATI seems way too excited about the part for that to be the case. I tend to think that it will be quite a bit different than the R300, in terms of DX version (unified shaders) or perhaps basic architecture (tiler or otherwise abnormal for ATi). If so, that would probably push the release back to spring 2004, and we might see a true R350 product fill the gap next summer/fall.

Whatever... it's an interesting market now. Soon I'll know which videocard to buy, and whatever that turns out to be I'll be one happy gamer!

 

[Hellbinder]

The difference is that the R350 is not Stupid rumor talk.

It is a Q1 2003 part, and it is not the Rv model. Things are a lot different at ATi these days. The change you will see this year has been a while in the making. I guess you guys will have to wait a few more months to find out if i know what im talking about or not. (not that any of you care)

 

[SirPauly]

A question asked by Ben6 to Dave Orton, COO of ATI:

Q: I'm very excited by the Radeon 9700. The problem I have with it is it's projected $399 MSRP. When do you think we might see a mainstream DX9 card?

A: Next year, maybe as early AS SPRING.

Note, as previously mentioned he wasn't talking about Radeon 9500)

I wouldn't call this silly , lala talk but from the COO of ATI; and wouldn't be surprised to see that this mainstream aspect mentioned is the Rv-350. Maybe the product to replace the Rv-250( Radeon 9000)? If you look at the timing between the 7500 and its replacement the 9000.....timing is about right.

So, if I keep my mind open to a possibility of maybe a spring time-line - it sure is coming from a solid source and not invented out of thin air.

 

[SirPauly]

What are the indications that ATI will move away from their current routine and release a second high-end chip within a year, besides the wishful thinking?

They did....the R-300 was launched within a year. This is all speculative talk and fun in many ways -- for anyone to hint that ATI's business model so-to-speak hasn't changed is kinda lunacy. There in the 3d chip selling business now and their model has to be much more aggressive in some respects than the old ATI, imho. Hasn't anyone noticed how aggressive ATI has become in many ways in different areas?

 

[V3]

What can ATI do to put NVDIA the way of 3DFX ?

 

[SirPauly]

You don't want that, imho. nVidia is a powerhouse and deserves the utmost respect for what they have offered to 3d and all the positives this company has done. nVidia has earned every dollar they ever generated in my mind.

However, I don't care for their PR though, hehe. The best thing is for nVidia, ATI and others if possible to continue to innovate at different price-points, so many can enjoy their engineering at a fair price, imho.

 

[Geeforcer]

They did....the R-300 was launched within a year. This is all speculative talk and fun in many ways -- for anyone to hint that ATI's business model so-to-speak hasn't changed is kinda lunacy. There in the 3d chip selling business now and their model has to be much more aggressive in some respects than the old ATI, imho. Hasn't anyone noticed how aggressive ATI has become in many ways in different areas?

R300 was launched July 18, R200 August 14, so the point stands: as of now ATi has been launcihng their high-end cards within the same timeframe once a year. Could they launch another one this Spring? Of course its possible, but so far they have not done so.

 

[SirPauly]

Fair enough, but 11 months falls with-in a year, but you can make the case that ATI offers their high-end products with-in the same time-frame.

There is a difference when one states with-in a year and with-in the same time-frame. Two different animals. Time-frame is subjective and with-in a year is not. That is my counter point to you, that's all.

 

[T2k]

As I said previously: IIRC the last year's (end) stockholder's informative contains that 'eufemism' that cycle has changed to less than a year...

11 months are OK for me for brand new chips. I don't wanna see faster releases - rather strong products w/ solid drivers and features.

 

[Jima13]

FWIW

They did....the R-300 was launched within a year. This is all speculative talk and fun in many ways -- for anyone to hint that ATI's business model so-to-speak hasn't changed is kinda lunacy. There in the 3d chip selling business now and their model has to be much more aggressive in some respects than the old ATI, imho. Hasn't anyone noticed how aggressive ATI has become in many ways in different areas?

R300 was launched July 18, R200 August 14, so the point stands: as of now ATi has been launcihng their high-end cards within the same timeframe once a year. Could they launch another one this Spring? Of course its possible, but so far they have not done so.

from an interview at GamersDepot>
"ATI: Now that we have two concurrent design teams working to produce bleeding-edge graphics chips, I think that it is clear that ATI's design cycles will be much more aggressive than in the past. We are striving to deliver the right products at the right time which means we need to be in line with Spring and Fall OEM design cycles.">> http://www.gamersdepot.com/interviews/ati/9000series/001.htm

 

[Johnathan256]

That's what I was about to post. I thought the whole thing about the new ArtX team on the west coast was common knowledge now. With 2 teams developing chips for Ati, wouldn't 2 chips per year be easily understandable? Ati didn't have the engineering resources to do so in the past.

 

[Randell]

Do the EAst/West teams share technology, basic cell libraries etc?

Rather than completely new architectures each time are they working on enhanceing the other teams last product?

 

[DadUM]

That's what I was about to post. I thought the whole thing about the new ArtX team on the west coast was common knowledge now. With 2 teams developing chips for Ati, wouldn't 2 chips per year be easily understandable? Ati didn't have the engineering resources to do so in the past.

Seems to me I recall an interview with ATI at Anands where they discuss building a chip and the whole process takes >1 year. With only two teams, you will not get 2 chips every year.

 

[Johnathan256]

Well not 2 completely different architectures a year but one new design and one refresh per year. Similar to geforce3 and geforce3 ti 500. That could be understandable with 2 engineering teams couldn't it?