Kusumi-Chan Blue XBox with Kasumi-Chan pillow

[maskrider]

Read what I said. I was talking about a facet of Japanese culture, specifically as it relates to Anime. Anime is pop-culture. If you misunderstood, then sorry, but by now it should be painfully clear what I meant.

Regardless, this is just a grammar flame and is entirely beside the point.

I really want to rest my comment, but I can't stand people calling my words a "grammer flame". You started with an overly generalized statement and I respond to that, and then you said you are referring to pop-culture.

Even with pop-culture, I don't see the"large part" of the "American culture" in it.

Eh, your point is? Are you saying Manga charachters look like westerners, but Anime charachters don't? There is no such distinction. Moot point.

That's your word, not mine. I am done with you.

 

[nobie]

Wouldn't you say that the Cajun culture in Louisiana is French culture put through an American filter?

I might, but I'd toss in a bit of Spanish influence as well... Also Cajun culture isn't completely representative of American culture either... It's a rather small subset...

Heh, America is nothing more than a collection of small subsets.

(take Wu-Fei from Gundam Wing, he is definitely Asian, the other charachters are not).

Ummm... Heero is Japanese (and he sure as hell behaves like it too)... Quatre is "Arabian" (which he looks nothing like unless he's the son of Lawrence of Arabia, and he reminds me of Jiro from GLAY)... I dunno WTF Trowa is but his hairstyle screams K-Pop singer...

Obviously there are characters that are done to depict certain ethnicities and/or fit into a particular setting. And often depictions are often exaggerated to emphasize are particular trait (Wu-Fei is obviously an exaggerated character)...

Heero is Japanese, but as I said Japanese charachters are usually depicted as western in appearance, like Heero is. Presumably, most charachters in anime are Japanese unless stated otherwise, but they LOOK western. An occasional exception being when there is a historical context, and Chinese (like Wu-Fei) are usually depicted as asian.

I said a "large part" of Japanese culture is Americana put through a Japanese filter, and it's obvious I was talking about modern pop-culture, not samurais and geisha.

I wasn't talking about samurai or geisha either... And just how much is a *large* part?

My initial comment was part of a discussion about seeing the differences in Japanese and American culture, in the context of the love pillow thing, X-Box, and p0rn. I was talking specifically about anime. So, basically, "popular media", which is a large part of any modern society.

but I believe the general concensus (even among anime fans) is that anime charachters usually appear western. I even found an encyclopedia entry for "Manga" that makes note of it.

General consensus from whom?

Well, the internet, for one.

it is often noted that the characters look "Western", or have large eyes.

Take a wild guess who's "often noting"... Go ask the same question in Japan and you'll get a different answer....

The point is, this is a common perception and not just some crazy idea I thought up all by myself. It's in a freaking encyclopedia.

Obviously the entry goes on to elaborate somewhat on the backround of the trait (although it fails to delve into the common application of good guys having large eyes, and bad guys having small eyes)...

Large eyes have become a permanent fixation in manga and anime since the 1960s when Osamu Tezuka, creator of Astro Boy and considered the father of modern manga, started drawing them that way, mimicking the style of Disney cartoons from America. Being a very diverse artform, however, not all manga artists adhere to the conventions most popularized in the west through anime such as Akira, Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z and Ranma 1/2.

This goes back to the western influence (Disney cartoons). Of course, it's a long way from Astro Boy to Gundam, but the influence is there. Now you could just as easily argue that Japanese pop-culture has influenced America. The trouble is, that influence is taking place right now, so we have no historical perspective on those changes. Americas influence on Japan took place decades ago, so it's simpler to analyze.

 

[nobie]

I really want to rest my comment, but I can't stand people calling my words a "grammer flame".

And like you, I am compelled to defend myself with a response.

You started with an overly generalized statement and I respond to that, and then you said you are referring to pop-culture.

Even with pop-culture, I don't see the"large part" of the "American culture" in it.

Then you should argue that, instead of quibbling over semantics. I'd be happy to debate the cultural issue, but debating my choice of words does not interest me.

 

[archie4oz]

Heero is Japanese, but as I said Japanese charachters are usually depicted as western in appearance, like Heero is.

Is Heero depicted as western in appearance? Doesn't look like it to me... If anything I *would* identify him as Japanese in appearance from his hair style if anything.

Presumably, most charachters in anime are Japanese unless stated otherwise, but they LOOK western.

Perhaps to you (and other "westerners"). But then that's probably because you're looking at something through western eyes and seeing traits that you identify with.

An occasional exception being when there is a historical context, and Chinese (like Wu-Fei) are usually depicted as asian.

I think it's more the rule than the exception, and in more instances than just historical contexts... And to me Wu-Fei didn't look Chinese, he looked more like tough Puerto Rican dude that used to live down the hall from me when I lived in D.C. The only thing to me that makes him Chinese is the backround of his character and the clothes he's drawn wearing which are more meant to scream "I AM CHINESE BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER WAY TO DEPICT A CHINESE PERSON IN THE GUNDAM WORLD SO WE'LL JUST USE CLICHE'D APPAREL!"

Well, the internet, for one.

Which internet is that? The English speaking internet? After all what about the native tongue of the genre?

In any case if you read most of those links, most of them refer to influences not the looks of characters...

And there's no doubting influences... I mean Disney's work was absolutely an influence on Tezuka and his peers in taking manga into moving pictures...

This goes back to the western influence (Disney cartoons). Of course, it's a long way from Astro Boy to Gundam, but the influence is there. Now you could just as easily argue that Japanese pop-culture has influenced America. The trouble is, that influence is taking place right now, so we have no historical perspective on those changes. Americas influence on Japan took place decades ago, so it's simpler to analyze.

Actually the influence has gone both ways pretty much since the end of WWII... For instance, Kurosawa influenced quite a bit of American cinema of the 60's and 70's (actually to this day)...

 

[cthellis42]

When a nation is full of people who all look alike, entertainment strives to be different, break molds, and catch one's attention. Since early anime sprung from the loins of Disney-thru-Tezuka, it brought some of that with it as well.

Seriously, just how many different characters can you make with dark hair, dark and similarly-shaped eyes, and skin tones all within a particular gradation? Anime characters don't "look American"--they just don't "look Japanese." They look like LOTS of stuff, in much the same way that american animation seeks to look "different" without totally divorcing us. (And heck, some seek to totally divorce us! Hehe...) Anime pretty much seeks every hair color and style, skin colors... whatever. Since the U.S. is much more a melting-pot than anywhere else, we would certainly resemble it MORE than Japan--but I think anime long ago took on its own dimensions, and encorporates a ton of styles.

 

[maskrider]

When a nation is full of people who all look alike, entertainment strives to be different, break molds, and catch one's attention. Since early anime sprung from the loins of Disney-thru-Tezuka, it brought some of that with it as well.

Seriously, just how many different characters can you make with dark hair, dark and similarly-shaped eyes, and skin tones all within a particular gradation? Anime characters don't "look American"--they just don't "look Japanese." They look like LOTS of stuff, in much the same way that american animation seeks to look "different" without totally divorcing us. (And heck, some seek to totally divorce us! Hehe...) Anime pretty much seeks every hair color and style, skin colors... whatever. Since the U.S. is much more a melting-pot than anywhere else, we would certainly resemble it MORE than Japan--but I think anime long ago took on its own dimensions, and encorporates a ton of styles.

Agree.

Anyway, back to the topic, I am sure the pillows that come with the first 5000 units will be sold at a price separately at many locations. But I doubt on how many people will be interested in the units.

I may buy one of the pillows (not to be put on my the bed, my wife will kill me).

 

[nobie]

Heero is Japanese, but as I said Japanese charachters are usually depicted as western in appearance, like Heero is.

Is Heero depicted as western in appearance? Doesn't look like it to me... If anything I *would* identify him as Japanese in appearance from his hair style if anything.

Compare Wu-Fei to Heero. Surely, you see the distinction, in the face and particularly the eyes?

Well, the internet, for one.

Which internet is that? The English speaking internet? After all what about the native tongue of the genre?

Well, they seem to think something about the number 22, not sure what that means.

In any case if you read most of those links, most of them refer to influences not the looks of characters...

Here is a good example, from an "anime club" no less.

This goes back to the western influence (Disney cartoons). Of course, it's a long way from Astro Boy to Gundam, but the influence is there. Now you could just as easily argue that Japanese pop-culture has influenced America. The trouble is, that influence is taking place right now, so we have no historical perspective on those changes. Americas influence on Japan took place decades ago, so it's simpler to analyze.

Actually the influence has gone both ways pretty much since the end of WWII... For instance, Kurosawa influenced quite a bit of American cinema of the 60's and 70's (actually to this day)...

There certainly was no mainstream pop-culture influence in the 60's and 70's, not like their is today.

 

[Dio]

I saw on the net - but can't find in google - an excellent and very long article discussing why anime and manga became so popular in Japan.

The thesis was (IIRC) that these styles turned out to be the most flexible means of expression given problems with the way the Japanese language works in plays and on film in the post-war period (either appearing 'old-fashioned' or 'trivial').

 

[oi]

Uh, I'll go as far as to say that sure, some anime characters definatly look more western than others. But I certainly don't agree that most of them do. I'd say that most of them doesn't really have any ethnic background attached to them. Some charcters look more asian and some look more western, but most are in a kind of no-mans land inbetween hehe.

Edit: Now that I think about it though, it's not often that you see black anime characters, for some reason.

 

[Dio]

I'm sure I've seen a reasonable number of black anime characters. How about Barry Hercules?

 

[nelg]

nobie, is there even an american culture? I mean, aside from the fact that every culture burrows from every other culture, isn´t it true that the U.S. doesn´t even have a true national identity because it´s at its core a mish mash of different people from different cultures? Japan certainly has a much more and more meaningfull culture than America.

Well they certainly have a culture of being non insular.

 

[nelg]

When a nation is full of people who all look alike, entertainment strives to be different, break molds, and catch one's attention. Since early anime sprung from the loins of Disney-thru-Tezuka, it brought some of that with it as well.

Seriously, just how many different characters can you make with dark hair, dark and similarly-shaped eyes, and skin tones all within a particular gradation? Anime characters don't "look American"--they just don't "look Japanese." They look like LOTS of stuff, in much the same way that american animation seeks to look "different" without totally divorcing us. (And heck, some seek to totally divorce us! Hehe...) Anime pretty much seeks every hair color and style, skin colors... whatever. Since the U.S. is much more a melting-pot than anywhere else, we would certainly resemble it MORE than Japan--but I think anime long ago took on its own dimensions, and encorporates a ton of styles.

Put a sock in it, will you. Common sense takes all the fun out of the forums.

 

[gurgi]

I dunno about Japan.. but from my experience living and traveling through Asia (mostly mainland China, Taiwan and Hong Kong), I definately found a certain fascination with western culture.

 

[cthellis42]

Put a sock in it, will you. Common sense takes all the fun out of the forums.

<laughs> Shit, I'm sorry man.

 

[Fox5]

http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/1023957232-00.jpg (Edit: Picture not working)
What are these guys? I was going to say them as Japanese impressions of Americans(since that's how they look in the US art), but here they look very japanese.
I was going to put Jimmy Lee too, but the Japanese art of him looks Japanese.

How about this dude?

How do the Japanese versions of Americans compare to American versions of Americans?

Hard to find American versions of Japanese though. Maybe Psylock?

 

[Dio]

Hard to find American versions of Japanese though. Maybe Psylock?

I'm not quite sure how much of the focus in the (re)design of Psylocke was on her face