Don't worry, they're very pixellated. 
Kojima agrees - Western devs are king
- Thread starter Johnny Awesome
- Start date
Thanks for your response. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree completely. Every platformer made today does build on what came before, including many Japanese games. On the other hand, it seems like the last couple years the platforming genre has been expanded mostly by Western developers. If this continues, we'll eventually consider platformers a "Western" genre. I already do, for the most part.
Another thing: Characters like J&D, R&C, and Sly wouldn't appear out of place on Saturday morning cartoons, or in a Disney movie. That's another source of inspiration. Speaking of Disney, Kingdom Hearts feels a little like a Western game.
Another thing: Characters like J&D, R&C, and Sly wouldn't appear out of place on Saturday morning cartoons, or in a Disney movie. That's another source of inspiration. Speaking of Disney, Kingdom Hearts feels a little like a Western game.
We'll all have our individual interpretations of any game. But mainly what it comes down to is that things recognizably "platformer" strikes me more from that angle than from what mainstream US gamers are looking for.
I do agree that SP/ND/I are heading up the genre a lot better than Nintendo anymore, though. I liked Sunshine and all, but those other studios have been delivering top-notch experiences consistently, faster, and more interestingly than the former king.
But mainly what it comes down to is that things recognizably "platformer" strikes me more from that angle than from what mainstream US gamers are looking for.I do agree that SP/ND/I are heading up the genre a lot better than Nintendo anymore, though. I liked Sunshine and all, but those other studios have been delivering top-notch experiences consistently, faster, and more interestingly than the former king.
gleemax said:Another thing: Characters like J&D, R&C, and Sly wouldn't appear out of place on Saturday morning cartoons, or in a Disney movie. That's another source of inspiration. Speaking of Disney, Kingdom Hearts feels a little like a Western game.
Huh? What? Where? How? Why? When?Johnny Awesome
Veteran
I disagree that games like Jak and Sly have a Japanese style. I especially disagree in the case of LotR: Third Age. These games may have copied some gameplay from previous Japanese efforts, but they are Western in style IMO.
As for some of the other comments: I'm not shocked by this trend away from Japanese developed games. I'm just pointing it out. I've been saying this for years.
Why point it out? Because facts help clarify discussion.
As for some of the other comments: I'm not shocked by this trend away from Japanese developed games. I'm just pointing it out. I've been saying this for years.
Why point it out? Because facts help clarify discussion.
london-boy said:gleemax said:Another thing: Characters like J&D, R&C, and Sly wouldn't appear out of place on Saturday morning cartoons, or in a Disney movie. That's another source of inspiration. Speaking of Disney, Kingdom Hearts feels a little like a Western game.
There are Disney characters! And Sora looks like he could be in a boy band.
gleemax said:london-boy said:gleemax said:Another thing: Characters like J&D, R&C, and Sly wouldn't appear out of place on Saturday morning cartoons, or in a Disney movie. That's another source of inspiration. Speaking of Disney, Kingdom Hearts feels a little like a Western game.
There are Disney characters! And Sora looks like he could be in a boy band.
Errr... Ok...?
Have you played the game? Cause it felt quite japanese to me. Actually, it had JAPAN written in red flashing capital letters all over the place.
It certainly didn't feel like a western game, Disney characters or not... In fact, in my opinion that was the beauty of the game, taking all those Disney characters and put them in a game that is essentially Japanese in feel.
But hey this is just me.
gleemax said:
*Official Headache*
Ok, so to u, Jak&Co feel more western than Kingdom Hearts feels... Japanese...?
*BIG headache*
Now you're confusing me. Let me try again.
Kingdom Hearts is clearly a Japanese game, even though Disney characters and environments feature prominently throughout the game. Similarly, J&D/R&C/Sly are clearly Western games, despite the genre's roots. I made the comparison because Kingdom Hearts has some obvious Western ties (Disney), while I don't see anything obviously Japanese in J&D/R&C and little in Sly Cooper. The original comment, about Kingdom Hearts feeling Western, was meant to be ironic.
Let me try again.Kingdom Hearts is clearly a Japanese game, even though Disney characters and environments feature prominently throughout the game. Similarly, J&D/R&C/Sly are clearly Western games, despite the genre's roots. I made the comparison because Kingdom Hearts has some obvious Western ties (Disney), while I don't see anything obviously Japanese in J&D/R&C and little in Sly Cooper. The original comment, about Kingdom Hearts feeling Western, was meant to be ironic.
It's funny that you "especially disagree" with LotR: Third Age, since the thing was almost a blanket-copy of FFX. The movie license stuck into a Final Fantasy frameworks. And here I am, thinking that you can't get away with being a totally different game just by changing the characters...Johnny Awesome said:
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Gameplay and style aren't the same thing. Style is what makes a game Japanese or not. It's the Japanese style that is turning US/EU gamers off, not the gameplay. The market is evolving into one where culturally relevant content (ie. Lord of the Rings, not anime) is more important than ever. FF is still part of the culture in the west because of the past, but new Japanese IPs are doing horribly. Other than Devil May Cry, I can't think of any that have done well in recent years.
How well is Pokemon doing? My first guess is that it peaked already, but it had a good gaming following, though perhaps my idea of recent is a little different from yours.
Pokemon did have some advantages when it came to ensnaring gamers. The games tapped into the innate human tendency towards collecting things, as well as the urge to enslave small magical creatures.
Pokemon did have some advantages when it came to ensnaring gamers. The games tapped into the innate human tendency towards collecting things, as well as the urge to enslave small magical creatures.
So after 4 pages, we agree that sales is much more highly affected by cultural preferences than game design skills. The court hereby declares the title of this thread invalid.Johnny Awesome said:
Court is adjourned.
And I'm still hurting over the fact that titles such as Planescape:Torment, System Shock 2 and Grim Fandango performed pooly at retail. Cultural/personal preferences indeed. - "I can't create an elf character. There are no elves. Characters are weird." - True and common statements from forum postings when the question of "why didn't you buy Planescape:Torment?" was raised.
LOTR? I wonder if it'll carry much longer, now that all the films have been released and the hype is slowing down. What western IP is there that can be expected to sell well? Harry Potter, Spiderman, Star Wars, Tiger Wood, x-men, FIFA.... licences. Often shallow, not very lasting experiences, but backed with huge marketing campaigns. There are of course few exceptions, like GTA, Half Life, Halo, Splinter Cell... that seem to be able to bring games with depth and originality.Johnny Awesome said:
But countering them are the countless generic clones like Medal of Honour series, Vietnam War games, Tom Clancy games, Tony hawks, WWE games, fps clones... ip that sells, and is able to continue selling though they are really getting old already.
What in your opinion is this "japanese style" that "is turning US/EU gamers off"? Cutey deformed chracters and bright colours, anime style? Isn't it any more "japanese style" if it doesn't have those elements? Aren't the japanese developers in your opinion not allowed to evolve their style towards other "genres".
I'm no japan expert, but imo it is very narrow minded to think of "japanese style" can only be samurais, superdeformed characters and anime.
MGS?
Metroid?
Pro Evolution Soccer?
Silent Hill?
Ninja Gaiden?
Dead Or Alive?
Resident Evil?
Zone Of The Enders?
Gran Turismo?
Dragon Quest??
Mario?
Dragon Ball Z?
Pokemon?
Kingdom Hearts?
Aren't these japanese games that are doing very well, and their "japanese style" is going down well in western countries.
It's true western games are today selling more in western countries, but it is also true the japanese companies do not release a sequel for their hit games two times a year
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Almost none of those are new IPs. Find me some new IPs that prove your point. Kingdom Hearts has Disney characters so it's culturally relevant to US gamers.
Johnny Awesome said:
The names of the characters and the characters themselves are pretty much the only US thing in the game. KH is totally Japanese, but i do agree that there hasn't been much innovation lately, both from Japanese and Western developers too.
Or maybe i'm just getting old and bored with life.
I know. But that was intentional as I could not come up with many new western IP's either.Johnny Awesome said:
Many western games have Asian characters too
GTA has, I think some of the Splinter Cell games have, Medal Of Honour Pacific something most certainly has.... and how many other "western" games have content that is more "culturally relevant" to foreign cultures than to where they are made.
You can argue that those are not IP as such, but stereotypes. But you can also argue that the Disney in Kingdom Hearts had not much "disney" in it than characters. The way they were presented and integrated into the game and story was quite "japanese" (imo).
Even more so, you can argue if Cultural Intellectual Property is good for games, as that means just more licenced games and sequels.
Yes that is exactly the game i was thinking of as an "exception" while writing my post. Still haven't seen it in the UK though...
