Kinect technology thread

[(((interference)))]

I think the only reason all the launch titles are controller free is because MS doesn't want to send mixed messages to consumers when it's advertising it as a controller free revolution.

But I do think we'll see controller enhanced experiences down the road - I hope MS creates a standard first party controller like the Move wand rather than leaving it to third parties to have proprietary Kinect add on controllers for their games.

If this does happen and we see a Move style wand and/or sub controller introduced, will there be anything Move can do that Kinect cannot?

 

[Danalys]

It could be cheaper.

 

[makattack]

All this controller-free vs. controller talk is interesting in that it completely overlooks one of the initial videos they had promoting what was called Project Natal. They showed a kid with a very real skateboard plank that he held up to the video camera for "object digitisation" for use in-game. Well, why not extrapolate that to include use of props in-game? Sure, it'll be a much harder challenge -- in one case, you're building a static, rigid body object for inclusion in the game world, in another, you're performing realtime tracking or mapping of the same object -- for a system that so obviously is centered around the human skeletal form.

Nevertheless, I think it would be quite reasonable to expect them to experiment with stuff like that, and perhaps be able to design software incorporating this into a game. Would it be neat if you could take any lego set, build a toy, and insert it into your game after shoving it in front of the camera at various angles?

 

[upnorthsox]

Would it be neat if you could take any lego set, build a toy, and insert it into your game after shoving it in front of the camera at various angles?

Or draw a tank on a piece of paper and incorporating that into a game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Or draw a tank on a piece of paper and incorporating that into a game.

Isn't it interesting that both Sony and MS have showed this sort of tech, yet neither is delivering much. All the best ideas mostl yjust stay ideas.

 

[Arwin]

Or draw a tank on a piece of paper and incorporating that into a game.

Yes well EyePet uses that pretty nicely.

 

[swym]

see http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/xbox/
3 recent press releases about kinect (i.e. not initial)
All 3 talk about "Controller-Free Entertainment", i.e. in not one press release do they talk about kinect with a controller

I think they do that because it's their point of differentiation from Wii/Move and thus makes perfect sense for an Ad campaign. After all, both Nintendo and Sony can claim that they offer motion-based gaming but only Microsoft can boast about controller-free motion-based gaming.

Another possible approach for their campaign could have been highlighting the strengths of the 3D camera which is also a unique proposition, but that could have been too complex to explain to the average customer. Trying to market the 3D camera concept can also cause serious confusion for the customer with the concept of 3D gaming that Sony (and TV manufacturers) are now trying to push.

I think that marketing-wise MS decision was right, but it was pretty obvious from day one that most of the genres we are familiar with today will still require a standard controller (or something else) in conjunction with the Kinect.

 

[Nesh]

I think they do that because it's their point of differentiation from Wii/Move and thus makes perfect sense for an Ad campaign. After all, both Nintendo and Sony can claim that they offer motion-based gaming but only Microsoft can boast about controller-free motion-based gaming.

Another possible approach for their campaign could have been highlighting the strengths of the 3D camera which is also a unique proposition, but that could have been too complex to explain to the average customer. Trying to market the 3D camera concept can also cause serious confusion for the customer with the concept of 3D gaming that Sony (and TV manufacturers) are now trying to push.

I think that marketing-wise MS decision was right, but it was pretty obvious from day one that most of the genres we are familiar with today will still require a standard controller (or something else) in conjunction with the Kinect.

To me as time passes and the limitations and strengths of both technologies become clear, Move and Kinect appear to converge in the type of gaming experiences they can offer.
They sound awfully similar to me now.
You can have motion+controller and controller free gaming with both and they require simultaneous use of both features.
Kinect just does a bit better controller free gaming with a few genres, and Move does better genres that are better played with a controller.

Games that require a standard controller+kinect (which could be a lot) will be like Move without a pointing controller. In such case Move could offer a better experience since its build in mind for these type of games (i.e see Killzone 3 and the Wizardry game they showed at E3). The 360 in that case misses a pointing controller that can detect 1:1 motion simultaneously. For example Shoot em ups require more precision and accuracy especially in competitive play. So you either want a standard controller, or a pointing device to target and shoot which I am pretty sure MS will use one of those 2 solutions for these type of games. Body detection will be for secondary functions. If your character holds something most likely you will want to hold something as well. i.e a gun, sword, a melee weapon etc

There are other non traditional genres like dancing, party and first person interactive games that Kinect could be doing better than Move, because they require easy accessibility and simple concepts. Like the avatar boxing game they demonstrated and a few others. Thats where Kinect can shine with kids and casuals.
If your character isnt using an object most likely you dont want to hold an object either i.e I dont want to hold a wand when I dance, punch or move my body. Move requires the wand and only a few exceptions do not require a controller. Usually those cant be executed as well with the Eye Camera as they can with Kinect's ability to detect body motion in 3D space. Eye Toy's and Eye Camera's efforts require that you see yourself on screen like a mirror so far

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For example Shoot em ups require more precision and accuracy especially in competitive play. So you either want a standard controller, or a pointing device to target and shoot which I am pretty sure MS will use one of those 2 solutions for these type of games.

Regards a pointing device, I wonder what options are available to MS without hitting patent issues? And likewise, when Sony want to add a 3D camera, what tech will be available considering MS bought two of the players?

 

[patsu]

I think they do that because it's their point of differentiation from Wii/Move and thus makes perfect sense for an Ad campaign. After all, both Nintendo and Sony can claim that they offer motion-based gaming but only Microsoft can boast about controller-free motion-based gaming.

Another possible approach for their campaign could have been highlighting the strengths of the 3D camera which is also a unique proposition, but that could have been too complex to explain to the average customer. Trying to market the 3D camera concept can also cause serious confusion for the customer with the concept of 3D gaming that Sony (and TV manufacturers) are now trying to push.

I think that marketing-wise MS decision was right, but it was pretty obvious from day one that most of the genres we are familiar with today will still require a standard controller (or something else) in conjunction with the Kinect.

Yap, that's my thoughts too. The controller-free vs controller-ful talking point is created by MS to differentiate themselves better from traditional gaming.

They have been focusing on the casual games. You can see some of the execs trying to pull it back to core gaming though. So there should be traditional games under the Kinect umbrella also. May be we will see them later this year.

 

[Zaphod]

Regards a pointing device

I'll be very surprised if they decided to add one. Kinect seems to do "pointing" quite fine on its own judging by tech demos and announced features.

I do, however, see them desiring some kind of nunchuck/subcontroller to handle more advanced games. Technically the existing controller would probably do just fine, but combining body movement and gestures with the two handed grip will be cumbersome (to say the least).

Not sure how they'd position such a thing without diluting their current marketing message, though.

 

[Nesh]

Regards a pointing device, I wonder what options are available to MS without hitting patent issues? And likewise, when Sony want to add a 3D camera, what tech will be available considering MS bought two of the players?

Good question. I have no idea. I was thinking about a double-camera-based solution for 3D based recognition. Certainly MS will have to compete against 2 existing patented solutions for pointing devices. They certainly cant use anything similar to Sony's or Nintendo's methods.

Things are going to get interesting next generation that all 3 will try improve their technology and implement similar features in their devices found only in competition this generation.

So far I believe Nintendo is the one who might find the most difficulty in inventing alternative and original solutions, since MS and Sony already patented solutions that require a camera, while Sony already developed an evolved Wiimote controller.

All three will want to exploit sound/image recognition and accurate body/motion recognition. It make you wonder how they will do it without violating each other's patents!

 

[patsu]

I'll be very surprised if they decided to add one. Kinect seems to do "pointing" quite fine on its own judging by tech demos and announced features.

It's too slow from what I have tried (unless they improve the tech significantly)

I do, however, see them desiring some kind of nunchuck/subcontroller to handle more advanced games. Technically the existing controller would probably do just fine, but combining body movement and gestures with the two handed grip will be cumbersome (to say the least).

Yeah, this would make the most sense IMHO. This subcontroller can help to improve the accuracy and speed too.

 

[Zaphod]

It's too slow from what I have tried (unless they improve the tech significantly)

OK. Thanks for the info. What do you mean by "too slow", though? TBH, I have been mentally excluding the kind of pointer speed and accuracy needed for i.e. FPS mechanics. Mostly because it would be too "me too" compared to the other guys. Personally I'm expecting them to differentiate themselves in terms of controls for the "Kinect only" titles and do more in the way of gesture recognition and motion based navigation of auxiliary game controls for "Kinect improved" titles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'll be very surprised if they decided to add one. Kinect seems to do "pointing" quite fine on its own judging by tech demos and announced features.

Id' have thought if Kinect's pointing was up to snuff, RUSE would feature Kinect support. But then maybe it's the lack of buttons that makes RUSE a poor fit? Still, it'll require whole arm pointing for Kinect, versus wrist pointing for Wii/Move. A nunchuck type controller, or remote, in the hand with pointing tracked via skeleton tracking, probably won't work too well.

 

[patsu]

OK. Thanks for the info. What do you mean by "too slow", though? TBH, I have been mentally excluding the kind of pointer speed and accuracy needed for i.e. FPS mechanics. Mostly because it would be too "me too" compared to the other guys. Personally I'm expecting them to differentiate themselves in terms of controls for the "Kinect only" titles and do more in the way of gesture recognition and motion based navigation of auxiliary game controls for "Kinect improved" titles.

It lags a few inches behind if I move my hand/finger too fast (e.g., 6 inches/second).

 

[Zaphod]

Id' have thought if Kinect's pointing was up to snuff, RUSE would feature Kinect support. But then maybe it's the lack of buttons that makes RUSE a poor fit? [...] A nunchuck type controller, or remote, in the hand with pointing tracked via skeleton tracking, probably won't work too well.

Why not? It seems to me that, with the currently announced level of Kinect features (such as finger tracking being out of the question), a slight revamp of the existing controller and a hacksaw would do the job quite splendid.

 

[Zaphod]

It lags a few inches behind if I move my hand/finger too fast (e.g., 6 inches/second).

Right. Probably too slow for controlling i.e. the aim of a player character then. But how about, say, in a squad based shooter where you'd want to issue commands like: "Team two: Flank left to checkpoint A, then hold until GO. On GO, breach and proceed to checkpoint B". I can think about several immersive ways of doing this with either/or/a combination of voice, gesture, and pointing controls (all of which should, to some degree, be available with Kinect); except for the standard controller getting in the way.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Right. Probably too slow for controlling i.e. the aim of a player character then. But how about, say, in a squad based shooter where you'd want to issue commands like: "Team two: Flank left to checkpoint A, then hold until GO. On GO, breach and proceed to checkpoint B". I can think about several immersive ways of doing this with either/or/a combination of voice, gesture, and pointing controls (all of which should, to some degree, be available with Kinect); except for the standard controller getting in the way.

That'd work very well. Better than Move, as it'd be more realistic. For shooting though, I think they'd be looking at a gun perihperal that'd need a way to be tracked more accurately than currently possible, and that's where a specific controller would come in. To compete toe-to-toe with Move/Wii, a pointer device looks necessary.

 

[Zaphod]

Alright. Thanks guys. Going further with this line of thought is probably more into the "The non-standard game interfaces"-territory than tech discussion, so I'll leave it at that.