Kinect-less XB1 fallout thread *spawn
- Thread starter Shortbread
- Start date
- Status
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
Cerny has al but admitted AMD were the only choice if they were to launch last year. Which is no choice at all.
That's not to say what AMD produced for PS4 is bad, I am very happy with my PS4. I am also happy that PS4 and One are so similar because this should ease development all round and that can only result in better quality games. Technically at least
And I still plan to buy a One but I'll be waiting until it drops under £300 or until there are enough must-have titles for it, which isn't looking like this year but E3 may change that
There are limits to what a fab does for specific designs, something they've been working to mitigate as design-related yield problems are increasing with the current and upcoming nodes--nodes Sony has not gone to.
There's a give and take, but foundries can point to design or implementation problems and won't change too much if they consider it the design's fault.
There are stronger guarantees with the POP core IP offerings, I believe.
At current and upcoming nodes, a layout that works at node N may be unmanufacturable at N+1 without cooperation between the chip designer and foundry.
Sony is neither party in this case, and the level of complexity is so much higher that getting back into that kind of work now will probably not lead to better results.
Vic's point is one I mildly agree with. MS have shown a willingness to drop products pretty abruptly. XB was stopped as soon as XB360 came out as it lost money. HD-DVD addon was dropped the moment BRD won the war, leaving everyone with an HD-DVD drive with a pretty useless peripheral. Kinect has been dropped months after release leaving everyone who bought a Kinect with a mostly worthless item unless they really value voice controls, because it sure as heck isn't going to be used in fabulous ways for most games. I'd be a little wary of buying into any MS vision as it could well be dropped at a moment's notice. They'd need to prove whatever product was established before I'd consider it.
That's probably true of most companies if one went digging, as you don't keep a dead product going for charity, but in three gens of consoles MS have demonstrated quick abandonment. We can also add to that the abandonment of the original XBox One vision to turn it into more of a games console. You wouldn't get Nintendo making a Wuublet free Wii U, while Sony wouldn't commit to something like EyeToy as standard to abandon it halfway. They even kept motion controls as standard despite it being virtually unused and useless. Something like SACD was dropped eventually, but after it had fizzled out and not mid-stride.
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
Can't quite fathom how we got here, but to re-iterate (or just copy and paste) an earlier post.
My point was Sony are both a fabricator and large procurer of ICs for hundreds/thousands of products. If the power of picking a fab was within their control they could likely leverage bulk discounts across SCE, Sony Semiconductors, Sony Medical, Sony Mobile Communications and Sony Video. If that's not the case, that's cool.
Drawing a line under this one as it's off topic. This is a tranquil thread for Kinect 2 fans to shake their metaphorical fists at Microsoft
interesting article up at theverge.com.
""Xbox One is Kinect. They are not separate systems," said Microsoft VP Phil Harrison last August. So much for that."
http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5714362/without-kinect-xbox-is-just-a-console
""Xbox One is Kinect. They are not separate systems," said Microsoft VP Phil Harrison last August. So much for that."
http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5714362/without-kinect-xbox-is-just-a-console
Well, the HD-DVD add-on depended of the movies, and Microsoft is not a movie maker, but HD-DVD player was an add-on, not a system peripherical, Kinect 2.0 was born like a system peripherical.
EDIT: And the Xbox 1/Prime Microsoft is not the same than Xbox One Microsoft.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think that they wanted to get this new out asap, eat the praise or the crap they are going to deal with for a while, and make the best E3 event they can make.Kinect Dropped from X1
So, I still get a weaker hardware than PS4. Bring it down to where it should be cost vs hardware wise, but having a ps4 already I still don't see myself buying any mutli platform game for it so my ps4 still feels a better buy in every way.
I am yet to see any exclusive that can make me buy it. RE4, MGS and GOW made me buy a ps2 over the powerful Xbox at that time. I don't see anything like that now, atleast anyhting that interest me and that I cannot have on the ps4, that too with better visuals.
But, again, I did not think they would take away Kinect so fast. So fast ! I mean, it isn't even CHristmas yet and they just killed Kinect already ! I see desperation, not confidence in their E3 showing. ALthough I am sure they will have a fab presentation as usual, but If they are so sure of their E3 they wouldn't have to completely "remove" kinect. They are killing the peripheral, like usually Sony does for each of its peripherals after 6 months.
Unless, Kinect isn't being used by any devs meaningfully anyways and there's no point in shoving it along anymore. ut I don't buy that either. MS wouldn't throw it in if they didn't have a clear idea of what could be done with it. As for voice commands, one needs only a mic for it, as shown by TR on the ps4, not a whole pricey kinect.
There isn't a lack of confidence, I think. The console has been selling well in less countries than the competition at a higher price and surrounded by the previous year controversy.
This also goes in response to Phil's post, somewhat.
Still, after defending Kinect before, I gotta say that I feel bad at the news.
This reminds me of certain things that happened before. It was etched on my memory when 2 years ago 2 girls were crying 'cos their candidate Romney had lost the American elections to Obama.
I was like; "Why are they crying? Is that so important?". Now I can understand the frustration when you bet on something, spend lots of energy and then...
In the end I wagered everything on a couple of losing horses; Kinect and 3D TVs.
-I'd save some money had I bought a regular TV months ago (good TV overall though).
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
Because it needs to be said, apparently.
The job of Microsoft's PR and spokesmen, including the execs, is to make you want to buy their system. Their job is to assuage any doubts, downplay any weaknesses and expound the strong points.
Their role is not to be absolutely honest about the product, but say whatever they can, without actually lying, to get you buy it. The same is equally true for Sony, Apple, Nintendo, Samsung and so on.
When Microsoft were addressing issues about PS4 being stronger hardware on paper, and Albert Penello was saying things like "No way is Xbox One giving up 30% power advantage to PS4", he says that to assuage consumer's doubts about buying a One. It's a nonsense statement in itself, it means nothing. But the aim is to get you to buy their platform because they know that most people will just stick with it and buy software for it.
I know a guy who is a Microsoft expert and he was always telling me that Kinect was a mistake.
He also told me that Microsoft is a company that changes things up when something doesn't work or makes mistakes --he was talking about Kinect, which he hates.
And also said they were going to remove Kinect, he was sure of that.
I didn't understand him then. Now??? a couple of months later his words make total sense.
Microsoft didn't totally abandon X360, and in fact the Games with gold deal is better than ever on the X360 this June. (yay! at SFIV Arcade Edition and Dark Souls, two of the AAAs I never had!
) The original Xbox was a loss-maker with an hostile deal with NVidia and the expensive HD.
Developers talk about Kinect's removal, with mixed feelings. Harmonix aren't happy, Mark Rein is happy as a lark:
I know. I wouldnt equate Kinect to snake oil. in fact i REALLY enjoy controlling my entertainment with voice. more often than not i dont ever touch my remote and i can flip from game to youtube to TV with a command.
Im not sure if MS' problem is that they abandon good ideas too quickly or if they just have bad implementation/marketing. Tablet pc and smartphones come to mind here.
D
Deleted member 11852
Guest
I know and think the mistake with Kinect was not developing great games for it, in parallel with it's development. Of course there may be some compelling projects in the pipeline - it's still early and E3 is around the corner. But this move doesn't change the potential of Kinect 2 - it takes just one developer to do something astonishing and make it a must have device.
But I do believe Microsoft deliberately downplayed the graphics disparity between Xbox One and PS4. Their line for a long time was "wait and see for yourself" knowing by the time you'd bought a One and seen for yourself, you were probably unlikely to return it over a slight resolution drop and lower frame rate.
But what else were Microsoft supposed to say? That's marketing and the risk first day adopters take.
I can see your point there, and MS PR is one of the worst, especially when it came to the Xbox One, and some local executives in different countries didn't know well about all the new policies XB1 wanted to implement. That kinda tells the story.
Still, one of the things I like about Microsoft these days is that they say things as they are, whether you like it or not.
They told their vision on the Xbox One and got lots of hatred but at least they weren't lying, no matter how unpopular. Same when they mentioned the resolution of Ryse and things like that.
This contrasts with Sony and Nintendo, which typically use underhanded tactics -past E3, Sony made the almost perfect E3 conference, but I didn't like how they "omitted" the new online which was behind a paywall using small letters, the recurrent KZ SF issue, etc.
At least with Microsoft what you see is what you get no matter how much popular/unpopular it is.
That being said, I am very disappoint at MS and don't care about the future of Kinect anymore. I know it's being used well in medicine and the like, but for gaming, I don't see the point in using it from now on.
i agree... every single decision they made immediately prior to Ballmer leaving was TERRIBLE.
Releasing a half finished windows 8 (8.1 is what should have been released and is a great OS). Features youd expect out the box since they were there win 7 ... not there...
Releasing an unfinished Xbox 1 (clearly its still unfinished as no game is really optimized for it and its convoluted design). Features you'd expect out the box since they were in xbox 360... not there.
WinPhone 8... features youd expect out the box.. not there.
I love all of those products because of what they promised but MS' execution has been at its nadir over the last two years... its getting better but so many "believers" who held on for hope of a better smarter MS are just letting go...
Actually, any devs developing for Kinect on the promise that Kinect was to be in every XB360 has real reason to be offended, to the point one could argue legal pursuit of lost earnings based on false representation of the product. Unless devs were told beforehand that this might happen (and I guess by public response that they weren't), a dev could have been operating on the informed belief that their two-year Kinect project for Q4 2015 would release to an audience of 15+ million Kinect enabled XB1s, yet now they may be looking at 5 million. That's a huge slap in the face.
The only upside I guess is none of the 3rd party devs believed in Kinect any more than MS did so probably didn't bet the farm on it.
MS's PR has strung them up for the crows ever since the first reveal. And things really haven't changed yet. Like the removal of the Kinnect is being presented as a benefit because it was the anchor weighing down the XB1. Which is basically a sweet FU to the few million or so who actually bought it.
If you scratched MS I bet they wouldn't smell of roses. PR is all about weaving deceit with a yarn of truth. And MS didn't get to where they are now by being all chivalrous and polite when it comes to playing dirty tricks!
Perhaps that was the problem to start with, the Kinnect had no point when it came to gaming. It was the ultimate $100 gimmick.
So would ms have been better just equipping the xbox with a mic ?
ps: I do have 1 question about kinnect, did any games (racing games/flight sims) allow you to look around by turning your head ?
This one says $75 http://www.joystiq.com/2013/11/26/teardown-suggests-xbox-one-manufacturing-cost-of-471/
It's almost like teardowns are just slightly educated guessing.
Regardless, $75 is MONUMENTAL on a BOM. It will translate to $100-$150 on the retail price.
The SOC's are almost the same size, and I'm of the opinion GDDR5 is a LOT more expensive than DDR3.
PS4 SOC is measured by chipworks at 348MM^2, whereas MS gave an official X1 SOC size of 363mm^2. A 4.3% difference. I'm willing to call that roughly equal for practical purposes and likely costs, or you can say the PS4 SOC is a wee bit cheaper it doesn't matter (though at a guess I'd guess ESRAM is pretty forgiving to fab given memory redundancy).
I have a feeling the X1 gives some of that potential BOM savings back on build quality though. My perception is it's a bit more reliable and tank like and quieter than PS4 (just compare the boxes sizes), and it would stand to reason MS would have possibly overengineered the cooling and build quality a bit in their terror of another RROD.
- Status
