Kinect-less XB1 fallout thread *spawn

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I think AMD have to make the chips.
Didn't AMD spin-off their fab division in 2009?

For Microsoft I can imagine buying a finished product (the IC) might be advantageous but for Sony, who produce ICs and sensors themselves for others and who relentlessly die-shrink as part of cost cutting, I could well imagine they've be more interesting in licensing the overall design and having the flexibility to fab anywhere they liked. They likely have very good relationships with the fabs given how much hardware they produce.

I suspect we'll never know.
 
Except they're now making Kinect a liability. Use Kinect and get a worse game experience. That's probably better for the XB1 as a games platform, but Kinect can't really be much deader than as something you attach to your console and drain its framerate. It'll become more like EyeToy. I suppose there'll be those who run the XB1 based on the original vision and value the use over the performance gains of removing Kinect, but the idea of Kinect-enhanced games is well and truly over.

Yes. But don't forget, Chucklehead's 4th point in why you should buy an Xbox over an equally priced PS4 is that you could still purchase the Kinect separately if you wanted!

HA! How long do you think that's even a possibility? Do you think MS is going to create a new console redesign that even has a connection for Kinect whenever the die shrink arrives?

As far as the practical points of removing the Kinect requirement for resources and how that would be applied, Uh.. Yeah.. Sure. They don't know. They are speaking in theoreticals trying to somehow explain how this is a good thing and could ultimately put the Xbox on the same performance plane as the PS4 which we know simply can't happen anyway. Just like they don't know how they are going to duplicate the voice command functionality of the Kinect to operate the UI, but they say that they are looking into using the headset mic but right now it isn't possible.

This doesn't sound anything like an engineering or design decision to make more effective use of the available silicon. This was a sales decision. Their inability to respond coherently to questions shows it wasn't even a marketing decision.

Horrific.
 
The description of how AMD is being paid indicates they are selling the APUs to the console makers.
AMD's involvement looks to be a requirement going forward, and it might be a false economy to cut out the company with the most experience with physical implementation.

The RROD was a case where Microsoft did the initial packaging work, and the fix at least in part involved pulling the experts back in. Replumbing the chip or shrinking it is another level complexity.

This has always been my impression too. It would also be pretty much impossible to 16FF without them.
 
The fact that removing Kinect has actually happened so soon could mean that Microsoft's senior management have already decided not to underwrite more losses and this was the only option available to the Xbox team.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Absolutely. This is not the move of a division that has vast resources available to them or the time that comes along with having vast resources. This is the move of a division that has very strict sales targets and a very strict budget and must meet the first within the confines of the later.

If the division had resources, they would have dropped the price but kept Kinect.

Or, they would have dropped the price even further (blaming the entire cost on Kinect) and removing the same price / less performance comparison with the PS4 and had been able to say it was less expensive and nobody can really notice the performance difference. (Instead of where they are today, which is saying sure it costs the same and the PS4 is better but not so much so, which is an entirely different position).

And, of course, dropping the price again in Nov, once the Kinect and it's associated costs had already been removed brings up the scenario that console manufacturers never want to get into - dropping the cost just to attempt to compete, which indicates a weaker or lesser performing product.
 
I think the problem here is much bigger. It all boils down to the audience. I personally think Microsoft only ended up with parity on marketshare last generation (X360 - PS3) because Sony made some big errors, namely 1.) launching late due to blue laser diods shortages and HDMI 2.) high price of the console and 3.) GPU weakness and incredibly difficult CPU architecture.

1 and 2 were crucial to their overal strategy (Bluray adaption) and 3 was something that was at some point offset by brilliant 1st and 2nd party games. Still, Bluray adaption came at a high price - it ment the console was significantly delayed so that Microsoft had a full year to continue selling its nicely designed package at a very good $399 price point. That the PS3 was able to sell at its 499/599 price point is nothing short of amazing really - and that, sticking to its guns, it achieved parity after 6 years on a global scale is IMO impressive - but shows how strong the PlayStation brandname is. The only negative point, is that they effectively lost the NA market.

This IMO was an ideal starting point for Microsoft and the Xbox One. Where they went wrong are IMO

1.) significantly weaker hardware / tradeoff in order to establish a multimedia dedicated device (kinect, livingroom hub + other services)

2.) higher price point of $499 vs a more powerful (but gaming orientated) PS4 at $399.

3.) side-by-side launch with your strongest competitor.

Number 3. IMO is crucial because I believe after taking off with the X360 in especially the NA market, Microsoft believed they had this region in the bag if they launch at the same time. IMO they would have been, but the marketing campaign surrounding the TV and voice integration, focus on Kinect, the higher price point killed off the anticipation. This is where points 1. and 2. become crucial. At the right price point, it could work - but I think this should have been the plan from the beginning.

The drop to $399 without a Kinect makes sense, but in my opinion, it won't make much difference to the state of the console. They managed to piss of those few people that saw value in a Kinect dedicated device by excluding it - but at the same time, they still don't appeal to the group of ex PC gamers who went to the Xbox because it represented the closest to PC gaming in the livingroom. What they effectively have done now is IMO cause more insecurities with their market. It will be interesting to see how they will come out at E3.

As I said, I don't think it will change much. My prediction is that Xbox One will slowly fall back and will never really gain the traction the X360 did. Assuming Sony doesn't stuff up, they should comfortably be able to build up momentum and with that, a lot of the mainstream gamers who aren't as attached to their brand will flock to the one that has the most sales.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft kills of Xbox One early (the earliest) and come out with something new 2-3 years down the road. This is bad news. I don't think Sony can afford to ditch the PS4 that early and its crucial to their business that they ride it out. As such, it would be better for both businesses if both competitors gained enough traction to maintain the life of these consoles for 6-8 years. The way things are pointing with the Xbox, I don't really see this happening yet.
 
Do you think MS is going to create a new console redesign that even has a connection for Kinect whenever the die shrink arrives?
Why would a die-shrink spell the end for a Kinect connector? Surely Kinect uses a custom connector only to a) avoid setup confusion and b) to supply sufficient power not standard over USB. The cost of a physical connector linked to the power node and South Bridge is in the tens of cents/pennies bracket in terms of cost.

Unless you're proposing they are going to remove all the Kinect-dedicated blocks from SHAPE as we'll?
 
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This is the move of a division that has very strict sales targets and a very strict budget and must meet the first within the confines of the later.

I agree, something very strange is happening in the xbox side... I was under impression that 360+online+game royalties gave them lots of $$. Anyway, no way MS will even touch the chip mask. Too costly, imho.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft kills of Xbox One early (the earliest) and come out with something new 2-3 years down the road.

No way: if they do it, they will lose xb1 customers, who already feels cheated for early kinect departure.
 
Didn't AMD spin-off their fab division in 2009?
The actual fabrication steps are done at a foundry.
The design and the bulk of the IP ownership are at AMD.

For Microsoft I can imagine buying a finished product (the IC) might be advantageous but for Sony, who produce ICs and sensors themselves for others and who relentlessly die-shrink as part of cost cutting, I could well imagine they've be more interesting in licensing the overall design and having the flexibility to fab anywhere they liked. They likely have very good relationships with the fabs given how much hardware they produce.

Sensors have very different process requirements from APUs. Extremely fine features run into fundamental scaling problems in terms of photon capture and noise, and they don't target high performance.
The last big in-house hurrah for high-performance CPUs was Sony's Cell fab, which they sold to Toshiba. Then they bought it back. And then they turned it into a sensor fab.

Licensing is a whole other can of worms, given the extreme level of patent interdependence in the x86 world. Sony licensing an APU would make it an x86 manufacturer using IP AMD does not have the right to transfer.

Spinning up a division capable of high-end digital processor implementation just to shrink an APU wouldn't give them much upside and plenty of risk they'd have to take on themselves.
 
The actual fabrication steps are done at a foundry.
The design and the bulk of the IP ownership are at AMD.
I know, he said AMD make the chips which I read literally as fabricating them. I think everybody is clear on who designed them.

Sensors have very different process requirements from APUs. Extremely fine features run into fundamental scaling problems in terms of photon capture and noise, and they don't target high performance.
I know, my point was Sony are both a fabricator and large procurer of ICs for hundreds/thousands of products. If the power of picking a fab was within their control they could likely leverage bulk discounts across SCE, Sony Semiconductors, Sony Medical, Sony Mobile Communications and Sony Video. Sony working cohesively to leverage bargaining power across the entire corporation was something Kaz Hirai was talking about when he became CEO.
 
So now for the early adopters they get to pay more money and have a worse experience if they want to keep the premium experience.

MS keeps screwing up every where. It would have been better for them to redesign the system for 2016 and offer a $100 off the new system for any xbox one owners before that date.
 
I know, he said AMD make the chips which I read literally as fabricating them. I think everybody is clear on who designed them.


I know, my point was Sony are both a fabricator and large procurer of ICs for hundreds/thousands of products. If the power of picking a fab was within their control they could likely leverage bulk discounts across SCE, Sony Semiconductors, Sony Medical, Sony Mobile Communications and Sony Video. Sony working cohesively to leverage bargaining power across the entire corporation was something Kaz Hirai was talking about when he became CEO.


I think the final mounting of the chips on their substrates and validation testing is still in AMD's hands, as small a part as that might seem to be compared to the initial fabrication of the silicon die.

As far as foundries go, I think a hypothetical future shrink might be evaluated for TSMC, Samsung, or GF. Perhaps with some of them Sony might have some leverage, but the IP situation probably makes it a theoretical exercise, and I don't think Sony is forbidden on having an input on AMD's negotiations with foundries for its console chips.

A shrink wouldn't be a trivial task, and even with Cell I don't think Sony demonstrated that it had any expertise in taking on reimplementing a design of that sort in-house.
 
MS keeps screwing up every where. It would have been better for them to redesign the system for 2016 and offer a $100 off the new system for any xbox one owners before that date.
How will this help Microsoft make a profit? Because contrary to about 70% of the posts here, this is their actual goal with Xbox.

They are not your buddies, they are not your friends, they have no 'vision'. They have a business plan to make money. Now granted their business plan for Xbox One has undergone some radical changes over the past 11 months but they really do want your money. They absolutely do not want to give you money :nope:
 
I think the final mounting of the chips on their substrates and validation testing is still in AMD's hands, as small a part as that might seem to be compared to the initial fabrication of the silicon die.
Interesting.

A shrink wouldn't be a trivial task, and even with Cell I don't think Sony demonstrated that it had any expertise in taking on reimplementing a design of that sort in-house.

I think you may underestimate Sony's involvement in Cell. They not only co-designed the architecture with IBM and Toshiba, they used to fab the chops at their Nagasaki plant, before they sold that to Toshiba. The fabricator will have unparalleled knowledge of chip layout and what works and what doesn't using a particular process.

We trust our fab partners implicitly on these things.
 
How will this help Microsoft make a profit? Because contrary to about 70% of the posts here, this is their actual goal with Xbox.

They are not your buddies, they are not your friends, they have no 'vision'. They have a business plan to make money. Now granted their business plan for Xbox One has undergone some radical changes over the past 11 months but they really do want your money. They absolutely do not want to give you money :nope:

they want people's money but constant back tracking wont get people on board with the system.

Gutting a console of all its uniqueness and making a me too system will only have people go towards the original. See what happened to the zune
 
I think you may underestimate Sony's involvement in Cell. They not only co-designed the architecture with IBM and Toshiba, they used to fab the chops at their Nagasaki plant, before they sold that to Toshiba. The fabricator will have unparalleled knowledge of chip layout and what works and what doesn't using a particular process.

We trust our fab partners implicitly on these things.


The reports on the 65nm shrink of Cell indicated IBM did it, and that the first chips were manufactured in East Fishkill.
Then Sony gave up the fabs back at 65nm.

I don't think that's indicative of Sony being an expert at doing a shrink to 20nm or lower, possibly having a decade elapse by the time a shrink becomes worthwhile.
 
How will this help Microsoft make a profit? Because contrary to about 70% of the posts here, this is their actual goal with Xbox.

They are not your buddies, they are not your friends, they have no 'vision'. They have a business plan to make money. Now granted their business plan for Xbox One has undergone some radical changes over the past 11 months but they really do want your money. They absolutely do not want to give you money :nope:

For some reason, in the mind of a lot of people who like to talk about the console "war", people forget the end goal is to turn a profit, not sell the most units. People seem to think selling at a huge loss is a great idea, just to come ahead on a sales chart in unit numbers, forgetting that could mean running the business into the ground. Coming in 2nd place in the sales charts with healthy financial reports is somehow a bad thing. Same goes for people who argue over smartphones the same way. I also don't understand why anyone would think they deserve money or compensation for being an early adopter. Sometimes you buy a product early on and it doesn't work out. That's just the way it is. You agreed to buy it at the sticker price.

There is a threshold in sales where there won't be enough support for the console to make it enticing to consumers. If you don't sell enough, you won't get games. I don't know if MS is at risk of being in that position. Only time will tell. I'm loving the analysis by all the arm-chair CEOs and psychologists.
 
The reports on the 65nm shrink of Cell indicated IBM did it, and that the first chips were manufactured in East Fishkill.

Sorry you misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting Sony did the die shrink, I'm saying because Sony operate fabs they understand the relationship between chips layouts, processors, yields and performance envelopes - I can't imagine how a fab could not develop an expertise on this.

A layout thats works to 60nm in one process may not work well at 45nm in another process. Changing things does that, changes to the materials will affects the properties and the characteristics of the chips.
 
I know, my point was Sony are both a fabricator and large procurer of ICs for hundreds/thousands of products. If the power of picking a fab was within their control they could likely leverage bulk discounts across SCE, Sony Semiconductors, Sony Medical, Sony Mobile Communications and Sony Video. Sony working cohesively to leverage bargaining power across the entire corporation was something Kaz Hirai was talking about when he became CEO.

AMD's overall contract price had to be competitive to these alternatives/concerns or they wouldn't have gotten the contract. That's the same for both Sony and MS.
 
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