Kinect is not required to be plugged into the xbox one

[wco81]

People have no patience in this day & age. They want everything right now. Maybe I'm naive to think that if you build some great technology somebody, somewhere & some time will do something really cool with it. When that happens I'm all the bandwagon fans will start coming out.

Tommy McClain

Or people recognize that "great technology" doesn't always lead to great products or user experiences and that MS, which also finances development of showcase games, itself has been unable to show compelling gameplay using the Kinect.

Compare that with Nintendo, which will make their supporting the controller one of the key goals of its first-party games.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Or people recognize that "great technology" doesn't always lead to great products or user experiences and that MS, which also finances development of showcase games, itself has been unable to show compelling gameplay using the Kinect.

Compare that with Nintendo, which will make their supporting the controller one of the key goals of its first-party games.

It may not be compelling to you, but many of the games have been compelling to millions of other people.

Regards,
SB

 

[Scott_Arm]

I got my moneys worth out of Kinect 1, so I have no problem paying $100 for it.

 

[Bigduo209]

Or people recognize that "great technology" doesn't always lead to great products or user experiences and that MS, which also finances development of showcase games, itself has been unable to show compelling gameplay using the Kinect.

Compare that with Nintendo, which will make their supporting the controller one of the key goals of its first-party games.

That's ultimately what it comes down to, first-party and contracted third-party developers that are obligated to integrate those console specific functions on some varied level.

The PS4 has improved Sixaxis technology and a touchpad in their controllers (w/o the PS Eye needed), the Wii U has tablet screen with resistive touchscreens and accelerometers, and the XB1 has Kinect with motion detection/capture along with voice recognition. Other developers will use these things as long as they match or enhance the vision of whatever game they want to make.

Unless a Kinect game comes along to really light developers' imaginations on fire, it'll simply remain something that only Microsoft will continue justify at every turn on their own.

The Wii's success came from 2 things, it's novelty and it's incredibly low price. The XB1's price is way too high, so it's novelty must be marketed to hell and back to make-up for it, MS could be in a better position after a few years and some price drops, but that's assuming the competition is standing still and not coming up with marketing strategies and lower price points.

 

[MrFox]

I need to get this out of the way... I love motion gaming and original novelty games, I enjoyed the Move sports games, Tumble was very impressive, and I loved early Wii games, Rayman, etc... Countless hilarious evenings with friends. I considered Primesense tech borderline useless because of the lag (except for dance games), and I'm honestly jealous Xbox One is first with a ToF camera, and I wish the PS4 had one to explore new fun stuff. (because I'm not buying an xbox one, at least not at launch)

With that said, my previous comment above is very serious, I'm trying to think how kinect-2 can be useful for real games with a standard controller in your hands. MS tried to take away the controller with kinect-1, and it was rational, regardless of it's lag and precision issues, or whatever the foot of an avatar looks like. The controller was definitely in the way of their "vision of the future". Sony and Nintendo took a different approach by splitting the controller to allow free movements. The consistent argument from Sony engineers was that you need buttons and feedback.

If you are sitting on your couch, your lower body is not usable in any kind of intuitive or comfortable way.
Your upper body is busy and your arms are locked because of the controller grip, ideally that grip shouldn't be disturbed.
You need to keep your eyes on the screen which limits significantly your head movement, and small movements would otherwise be detected as spurious false positives.

I see a few things here to add more inputs with your body:
1. move the controller around and track it for gestures
2. detect facial expressions and significant head movement
3. detect body tilting left and right
4. hand gestures which requires you to drop one hand from the controller and get back to it afterwards

This needs only a webcam, and it's been discussed multiple times for about 13 years, some of these are very awkward movements. Sure there's a more precise dataset now, but it's wasted technology, reminiscent of the companies using the Wii controller only to "shake it" as an action trigger, it could do so much more than that. In terms of game design nothing really changed. The only place kinect-2 is improving games is where "you are the controller" with nothing in your hands. Dance games and "performance based games" were great with kinect and should be even better with kinect-2. But as soon as you hold a controller, I don't see many advantages versus a cheap 120fps webcam, it's a worse proposition because of the lag. I.e I want to see something only the kinect-2 can do, not something a cheap webcam can do better. There's plenty of those with the Move controller (Tumble is still impossible with kinect-2). MS must show something exclusively enabled by the ToF camera technology.

 

[AzBat]

Or people recognize that "great technology" doesn't always lead to great products or user experiences and that MS, which also finances development of showcase games, itself has been unable to show compelling gameplay using the Kinect.

Compare that with Nintendo, which will make their supporting the controller one of the key goals of its first-party games.

I think Microsoft understands that their main launch consumer is a hardcore gamer that doesn't want a lot of Kinect interaction. Or they don't want something half-assed. They will be way over critical on how it's used. BTW, I don't think you'll see the same demands from a Nintendo gamer.

So yes, XB1 launch games shows that they're playing it safe with Kinect. And I don't begrudge them if they don't want to rush a bunch of crap Kinect games out at launch. Let's give them a little time to see how they plan on finding the right way to use Kinect in future games. They spent a lot of a money & research on the tech. So I don't expect it to be completely wasted only on voice recognition & non-gaming uses. Again, have some patience.

Tommy McClain

 

[Billy Idol]

I also think that they should not try to fit K2 into a game. They should really build games for K2. Everything else is likely to fail.

I wonder why they don't have a Wii Fit type launch game. With kinect technology, something like this could really fly and potentially attract a lot of women!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For myself it allows some games to [rant] STOP USING THE SAME FREAKING BUTTON FOR MULTIPLE ACTIONS [/rant] then I'd be extremely happy.

I agree whole-heartedly with your criticism, but I'm not sure Kinect provides the solution. It's inputs aren't good alternatives for buttons. Perhaps something like moving heal to a gesture as it's rarely used and the interruption to the main game input can be considered a game mechanic (take hand off controller to wave a healing as if applying medical treatments leaves one's hand off the control and unable to respond to events, which could be considered 'realistic'), but something like picking up loot would need to stay on the buttons.

Tumble is still impossible with kinect-2

That's to be seen. Arm tracking may be good enough, with the hand opening and closing to pick up and release blocks.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I agree whole-heartedly with your criticism, but I'm not sure Kinect provides the solution. It's inputs aren't good alternatives for buttons. Perhaps something like moving heal to a gesture as it's rarely used and the interruption to the main game input can be considered a game mechanic (take hand off controller to wave a healing as if applying medical treatments leaves one's hand off the control and unable to respond to events, which could be considered 'realistic'), but something like picking up loot would need to stay on the buttons.

That's to be seen. Arm tracking may be good enough, with the hand opening and closing to pick up and release blocks.

I'm waiting to see exactly how Kinect v2 performs and get some hands on action. I already know some people that are getting Xbox One (and some getting PS4 while some get both) so I'll be able to try it if Microsoft doesn't convince me to get one. I might pick one up at some point just to have updated exercise and dance (more exercise) titles. Partially due to Kinect v.1 I've lost over 60 pounds and more importantly 8 inches around my waist. Summertime I can get out but during the winter time there's not much to do now that my body is too banged up for most winter sports.

Also, it's interesting that someone mentioned Sixaxis. In theory, Kinect v2 can replicate pretty much everything that Sixaxis can do combined with a standard Xbox One controller, albeit likely with a bit more lag.

Regards,
SB

 

[liolio]

I'm waiting to see exactly how Kinect v2 performs and get some hands on action. I already know some people that are getting Xbox One (and some getting PS4 while some get both) so I'll be able to try it if Microsoft doesn't convince me to get one. I might pick one up at some point just to have updated exercise and dance (more exercise) titles. Partially due to Kinect v.1 I've lost over 60 pounds and more importantly 8 inches around my waist. Summertime I can get out but during the winter time there's not much to do now that my body is too banged up for most winter sports.

Also, it's interesting that someone mentioned Sixaxis. In theory, Kinect v2 can replicate pretty much everything that Sixaxis can do combined with a standard Xbox One controller, albeit likely with a bit more lag.

Regards,
SB

Looking at the hand-on of IGN (new kinect adventure) it looks like it works pretty well.
I think "fitness games" could be a great success for women.
I'm to get started with "crossfit" and the guy that got this started should consider doing something on Kinect, the "wod" principle would do marvel on system that is likely to connected all the time (nb Workout of the day).

Anyway I really think that this thread is irrelevant, anybody that really want to buy the XB1 is to connect Kinect, like 99.9% the writing is on the wall imo.
That discussion is pointless, at least for now, if the XB1 tanks at its current price points and if MSFT needs a massive price cut to keep up and can't get the price where they want without cutting it, they will cut it, but speaking about that option that early has a name: FUD, plain and simple.

 

[dobwal]

I'm waiting to see exactly how Kinect v2 performs and get some hands on action. I already know some people that are getting Xbox One (and some getting PS4 while some get both) so I'll be able to try it if Microsoft doesn't convince me to get one. I might pick one up at some point just to have updated exercise and dance (more exercise) titles. Partially due to Kinect v.1 I've lost over 60 pounds and more importantly 8 inches around my waist. Summertime I can get out but during the winter time there's not much to do now that my body is too banged up for most winter sports.

Also, it's interesting that someone mentioned Sixaxis. In theory, Kinect v2 can replicate pretty much everything that Sixaxis can do combined with a standard Xbox One controller, albeit likely with a bit more lag.

Regards,
SB

I wonder if its possible under those circumstances for kinect to limit the parts of the body where tracking is unessential in an effort to improve latency.

 

[AzBat]

OXM gets to chat with Simon Woodroffe with Rare Games where he talks about using Kinect in new/different games...

"When we launched Kinect obviously there was a big focus on 'everything must be Kinect,'" he said in a behind-closed-door chat at the show. "Now it's in the box, use it where it make sense, don't where it doesn't. It can be used in some really - not gimmicky ways, which is what I think you'll see a fair amount of - but ways that actually really enhance the game. We've got some ideas for how to use it in the right way." Which might even be in a new Perfect Dark.

"Maybe! We've got an idea for that. It would be controller plus Kinect. We've got ideas for most older Rare IP, you won't be surprised to hear. There's quite a lot of desire to do that, and Viva Pinata, Conker... Banjo's very popular internally, a lot of people want to do stuff with Banjo.

"So if we can find the right - we're all about giving people new experiences, that's what we want to do. It's a very technical studio. I'm relatively new, what I've learned is they're brilliant at technology, they really know how to make creative things out of technology.

We want to find that thing that nobody's ever done before and make a game out of it. We should be inventing new genres, inventing new ways to play. And this sensor gives us new opportunities to do it, with the fidelity it has now."

Woodroffe added that once Kinect Sports Rivals is finished, the studio is likely to start working on multiple new titles, as well as supporting that game's community and post-release development.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/60985/rare-weve-got-ideas-for-kinect-in-perfect-dark-banjo-viva-pinata/

Sounds like some of you might get what you're looking for: non-gimmick uses for Kinect in core games. You'll just need to wait a bit longer.

Tommy McClain

 

[Strange]

Also, it's interesting that someone mentioned Sixaxis. In theory, Kinect v2 can replicate pretty much everything that Sixaxis can do combined with a standard Xbox One controller, albeit likely with a bit more lag.

Regards,
SB

I doubt that. You're going to have a whole lot more issues with that. There are many subtle movements you can do to the Sixaxis that will register properly but probably couldn't with the kinect due to the resolution the Kinect can offer.

With some research Kinect V1 appears to have
Depth resolution: ~ 1.5 mm at 50 cm. About 5 cm at 5 m.

Which is expected, the farther away, the less accurate.




I think the main issue with kinect and implementing it in stuff is two things:

First is the 60ms delay, which is ~2 frames in 30fps games, and a 3.5 frames in 60 fps games. This delay occurs even before you factor anything else, so that is a concern. (which many have chimed in about)

The second is how you implement it. If you simply just throw the skeleton data into the game it would work very nice. (resulting in games like rock climbing which works pretty nice in my opinion)

However, the majority of the games simply cannot support the player 1-1ing the character in game, and as a result you need to use "gestures" to inform the game that the player has thrown in some type of input. This is hugely problematic in that you're trying to strike a balance between two issues that can make games borderline unplayable:

1. Input recognition lag. What is your criteria for a "gesture"? In all cases, you REQUIRE the player to complete at least a portion of the gesture to be able to register the gesture itself.

However, you already have 60 ms Kinect v2 lag + rendering time + any other shit like display lag, and tacking on a further, oh I don't know, lets take 3 frames from the 30 fps 1080p camera from kinect v2 to properly recognize a gesture, you're looking at a 100ms (3*33ms) + 60 ms + rendering time + any other shit like display lag, This number may easily blow past 200ms.

2. Which is connected to the idea above, which is false positives. If you want to properly recognize movements without delivering false positives, (providing that you use the same code of course) you have to extend the number of frames you use to detect gestures, more frames = more lag.

And yes we are seeing these issues still present in Kinect V2 in the currently shown games. The X-ray FPS game where you can hold up a shield is a clear example.

Gesture recognition is clearly not the way to go in games if the game itself is intolerable to input lag. You're much better off ignoring it entirely and sticking to buttons to avoid a minimum of 100s of ms of delay.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

First is the 60ms delay, which is ~2 frames in 30fps games, and a 3.5 frames in 60 fps games. This delay occurs even before you factor anything else, so that is a concern. (which many have chimed in about)

Ignoring the rest as this is your first fundamental mistake. That 60 seconds is from input to output (to display devices). The game receives the input much sooner than that. This would likely be the equivalent of a standard controller which has input to output lag on the order of 30-60 ms depending on the complexity of the game and whether it is a 60 FPS or 30 FPS game.

In other words, it's not that much worse than your standard controllers anymore.

The reason you don't notice the discrepancy between output and display with a controller is that you don't have a large visual queue that the screen isn't mimicking your movements. Waving your arm around you can see both your arm and the screen representation of your arm's movement, hence any discrepancy is noticeable if you are looking for it. With a button press there is no visual queue with which to compare so you just assume it is instant when it isn't.

If you don't sit there and obsess about it, your brain naturally adjusts to any difference between an action and reaction such that it can proceed accordingly. This is also why people accustomed to 60 FPS shooters often can't stand 30 FPS shooters as the input to reaction time is significantly different. But someone that only does 30 FPS shooters thinks it is just as responsive as a 60 FPS shooter because that's what their mind and reactions have adjusted to.

It's also why most people don't even notice the lag with Kinect v1, despite it being quite noticeable if you look for it.

Regards,
SB

 

[Strange]

Ignoring the rest as this is your first fundamental mistake. That 60 seconds is from input to output (to display devices). The game receives the input much sooner than that. This would likely be the equivalent of a standard controller which has input to output lag on the order of 30-60 ms depending on the complexity of the game and whether it is a 60 FPS or 30 FPS game.

So you're telling me that regular controllers have an input to output lag of 30~60 ms and Kinect V2's input to output lag is 60 ms.

That 60 [milli]seconds is from input to output (to display devices)

OOOOOOOOKKKKAAAAAY.

Lets check some facts then.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-console-lag-round-two-article?page=3
Game Latency Measurement
BioShock 2 Frame-rate Locked 133-150ms
BioShock 2 Frame-rate Unlocked 100-150ms
Call of Duty: World at War 66ms-100ms
Dante's Inferno 100ms
Killzone 2 150-183ms
LittleBigPlanet 100ms
Mirror's Edge 133ms
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift 116ms-133ms
Resident Evil 5 100-150ms
Ridge Racer 7 66ms
Street Fighter IV 66ms
Unreal Tournament III 100-133ms
WipEout HD 84ms


Kinect v2 obviously is alientech as it kills every single last gen game with input to output (display) lag of 60ms!
To be fair Kinect v1 also has no lag with its 90ms latency time if it really is "input to output" as you have claimed.

If your claim is true, Microsoft had reduced their latency to amount to ... well, nothing really, because they're actually ahead/on par with other controllers we have on the market and there's quite frankly no need to address ANY latency issue.




Joking aside, no of course not, the 60 ms is completely supplied by Kinect itself. Controllers by themselves have very, very little lag.

If you use Kinect V2 on these games you will directly tack on another 60ms no matter what. If you're doing gesture recognition be prepared to add another 100ms or so.

There is a very good reason why we see horrendous lag in this video here.

http://youtu.be/Y6uVF-G3INw

In other words, it's not that much worse than your standard controllers anymore.

The reason you don't notice the discrepancy between output and display with a controller is that you don't have a large visual queue that the screen isn't mimicking your movements. Waving your arm around you can see both your arm and the screen representation of your arm's movement, hence any discrepancy is noticeable if you are looking for it. With a button press there is no visual queue with which to compare so you just assume it is instant when it isn't.

If you don't sit there and obsess about it, your brain naturally adjusts to any difference between an action and reaction such that it can proceed accordingly. This is also why people accustomed to 60 FPS shooters often can't stand 30 FPS shooters as the input to reaction time is significantly different. But someone that only does 30 FPS shooters thinks it is just as responsive as a 60 FPS shooter because that's what their mind and reactions have adjusted to.

It's also why most people don't even notice the lag with Kinect v1, despite it being quite noticeable if you look for it.

Regards,
SB

Bad assumption, bad conclusion.

I can introduce a 2~3 frame buffer on my 60fps capture card and I can tell right away if my capture card is buffering 1 frame or 4 frames even when moving around XMB. I get very uncomfortable with most games when it buffers 4 frames unless it's something like a RPG in which case input lag has little to no effect as long as it's bearable.

Yes people do notice it quite easily.

 

[warb]

Where did the 66ms figure come from?

The only statement on latency I've heard was in the reveal Kinect videos where someone claimed they'd saved about 2 frames of latency compared to Kinect 1, which was about 3 frames (at 30fps)?

^^ You can introduce an extra ~50ms yourself if you don't switch on an LCD TV's "game mode". That may have happened in some videos where the lag looks worse than in others. Someone will have to test it.

 

[Strange]

Where did the 66ms figure come from?

The only statement on latency I've heard was in the reveal Kinect videos where someone claimed they'd saved about 2 frames of latency compared to Kinect 1, which was about 3 frames (at 30fps)?

^^ You can introduce an extra ~50ms yourself if you don't switch on an LCD TV's "game mode". That may have happened in some videos where the lag looks worse than in others. Someone will have to test it.

WAAAAAAY back when Kinect 2 was leaked (Feb)

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-next-generation-kinect-sensor/

And yes they pretty much got everything spot on as far as we're concerned.

These are also pretty hard coded so I don't think anybody can do much about it.

 

[warb]

What does this mean for control latency in a game like those mentioned above. An extra frame at 30fps?

Some 360 Kinect games are more laggy than others. Kinect Adventures was bad. KS2 was better, but Child of Eden was even more responsive.

 

[baten]

The conspiracy theory is back:

http://kotaku.com/xbox-ones-top-marketer-brags-to-advertisers-about-kine-1441807229

 

[wco81]

The conspiracy theory is back:

http://kotaku.com/xbox-ones-top-marketer-brags-to-advertisers-about-kine-1441807229

Anyone recall Max Headroom?

Show posited a future with dozens of networks with TV more dominant than ever. They devised a way to put accelerated adverts, to increase the number aired.

At the same time, they were monitoring the vitals of the viewers and discovered that the accelerated adverts eventually made the viewers' brains explode.

But the notion of collecting biometric responses to watching ads, you'd think that would draw outrage.

Why would anyone consent to such monitoring? For some coupons or maybe Achievements?