Jak II

[Phil]

I was infact refering to the buffer size. Given that Jak & Daxter used half-frame (I'm pretty sure of this), I presume Naughty Dog went for the fullframe for progressive out. I have no idea how much performance DPL2 uses in Jak II, as there are different ways of implementing it etc. I mentioned these two features because I think a game like Jak II could have done with out them.

BTW; the tearing isn't that bad that I would go as far to compare them with other developers. The engine does a damn fine job and only tears frames in the city (though as said, it doesn't seem to be as bad anymore, somehow) noticably. I haven't experienced any real bad tearing yet...

 

[rabidrabbit]

Speaking of DPL2.
What is the difference if in game packagin there is a logo (the difference in logos being words DIGITAL and SURROUND)

DOLBY
D I G I T A L
PRO LOGIC ii

AND

I mean, can both of these be interactive? My (most likely totally false) understanding is that only the 'DIGITAL' variety could be interactive, while the plain 'SURROUND' would be just pre-mixed.

Of the prog scan.
The manual, if I remember correct, says the prog scan in this game is something 500p (not 500, but something above, just can't remember the exact number. Could be also i instead of p).
I remember it has been said by someone (maybe on this forums, by some xboxxer ) that PS2 could only go as higs as 400something-p :?

 

[sir doris]

I wasn't aware there was a DOLBY D I G I T A L PRO LOGIC ii. Bassically Dolby Pro Logic encodes the mono rear and centre channels into the sterro signal. All that I think Pro Logic 2 adds is an extra rear channel, effectivly giving discrete rear right and rear left channels, and i think is backwards compatable with Dolby Pro Logic and even Dolby Surrond (no centre channel).

As I recall these analouge surrond modes just have background effects and probably have virtually no overhead as most 3DO games featured Pro Logic. I remmember you could tell how close the cops were behind you in Need for Speed by how loud the siren was in the rear speakers.

Dolby Digital and DTS surrond is supposed to be much more interactive as it requires a lot more processing to generate the effects on the fly.

 

[mech]

I was infact refering to the buffer size. Given that Jak & Daxter used half-frame (I'm pretty sure of this), I presume Naughty Dog went for the fullframe for progressive out. I have no idea how much performance DPL2 uses in Jak II, as there are different ways of implementing it etc. I mentioned these two features because I think a game like Jak II could have done with out them.

"pretty sure"? It looks like full-frame to me. No flickering or aliasing problems on any of my TVs at any rate.

To do progressive out, you REQUIRE full-frame.

DPL2 can't take much processing power, because GC can do it (kidding guys!)

 

[London Geezer]

Of the prog scan.
The manual, if I remember correct, says the prog scan in this game is something 500p (not 500, but something above, just can't remember the exact number. Could be also i instead of p).
I remember it has been said by someone (maybe on this forums, by some xboxxer ) that PS2 could only go as higs as 400something-p :?

it's 525p and it's the european version of 480p. it doesnt mean it's running at higher resolution, it has something to do with invisible lines. basically it's the same thing.

 

[London Geezer]

I was infact refering to the buffer size. Given that Jak & Daxter used half-frame (I'm pretty sure of this), I presume Naughty Dog went for the fullframe for progressive out. I have no idea how much performance DPL2 uses in Jak II, as there are different ways of implementing it etc. I mentioned these two features because I think a game like Jak II could have done with out them.

"pretty sure"? It looks like full-frame to me. No flickering or aliasing problems on any of my TVs at any rate.

To do progressive out, you REQUIRE full-frame.

DPL2 can't take much processing power, because GC can do it (kidding guys!)

he said "i'm pretty sure J&D (the first one) used half-frame buffer". which is true.
Jak2 is of course full-frame because it supports pro-scan.

 

[marconelly!]

J&D is using half frame buffer, no doubt about it. It's obvious from the less than perfect image quality. Jak 2 has *much* improved image quality due to it's full frame output and even better mip-mapping implementation.

 

[zurich]

I've always been of the understanding that Dolby Digital Pro Logic 1/2 was DD 2.0. On my receiver, when it plays a 2.0 DD stream the Dolby Digital and DPL lights both turn on.

 

[rabidrabbit]

If implementing DPLII on a game takes even a nominal hit on performance, wouldn't it then be a good idea to leave it on 'stereo' if one wants to be sure the game runs at optimal speed.
Tried it on JakII, but there was no difference in framerate between stereo and DPLII. That was excepted if the perf hit using DPLII is minimal.

I only have DPL on my AV, so I usually keep DPLII games in stereo mode, as I have noticed hardly any rear sounds in games using DPLII.
Would it be a good idea to upgrade my amp to DPLII? Does the sound in PS2 DPLII really benefit if run through DPLII decoder?

 

[zurich]

If implementing DPLII on a game takes even a nominal hit on performance, wouldn't it then be a good idea to leave it on 'stereo' if one wants to be sure the game runs at optimal speed.
Tried it on JakII, but there was no difference in framerate between stereo and DPLII. That was excepted if the perf hit using DPLII is minimal.

I only have DPL on my AV, so I usually keep DPLII games in stereo mode, as I have noticed hardly any rear sounds in games using DPLII.
Would it be a good idea to upgrade my amp to DPLII? Does the sound in PS2 DPLII really benefit if run through DPLII decoder?

Can't you force DPL on stereo sources? I can, and the effect is quite nice

(same goes for running DPLII through DPL)

 

[rabidrabbit]

Yes I can, in movies (VHS) the effect is often good enough.
It's the games that do not seem to benefit much from DPL, at least in my setup and games that I own.

BurnOut 2 - Didn't notice much difference, the sound was just more 'echoye' and hollow in DPL.
Jak II - same thing
WipeOut Fusion - The music only sounds much worse
...

 

[zurich]

Yes I can, in movies (VHS) the effect is often good enough.
It's the games that do not seem to benefit much from DPL, at least in my setup and games that I own.

BurnOut 2 - Didn't notice much difference, the sound was just more 'echoye' and hollow in DPL.
Jak II - same thing
WipeOut Fusion - The music only sounds much worse
...

Strange. In addition to DPL, I also have two generic upmix settings, 'Music' (sound is more equal between the 5 speakers, excellent for MP3s) and 'Movie' (more centre channel, quiet rear speakers). They're 'alright', but I generally still just put it on DPL for games. Also interesting is that most DivX/XviD authoring packages downmix the DD5.1 streal on DVDs to DPL for DVD-Rips. So while not quite the real thing, there's something else that DPL is useful for

 

[London Geezer]

Yes I can, in movies (VHS) the effect is often good enough.
It's the games that do not seem to benefit much from DPL, at least in my setup and games that I own.

BurnOut 2 - Didn't notice much difference, the sound was just more 'echoye' and hollow in DPL.
Jak II - same thing
WipeOut Fusion - The music only sounds much worse
...

Strange. In addition to DPL, I also have two generic upmix settings, 'Music' (sound is more equal between the 5 speakers, excellent for MP3s) and 'Movie' (more centre channel, quiet rear speakers). They're 'alright', but I generally still just put it on DPL for games. Also interesting is that most DivX/XviD authoring packages downmix the DD5.1 streal on DVDs to DPL for DVD-Rips. So while not quite the real thing, there's something else that DPL is useful for

reminds me of the continuous (after almost 2 years) internal psychological debate occurring in my head of choosing "which setting on the surround system"... i mean i have an oldish DD-DTS Sony system, and it's got like 10 or more settings (typical Sony ones, like the -crappy- Hall, Jazz, Live ones and the *much* more advanced Studio A, B and C, and Normal Surround, VDynamic and some others)... i mean, sometimes one sounds "better".. than i change CD or DVD and another one sounds more "appropriate".. i mean it's just hard!!!!!!!!!

 

[rabidrabbit]

I'm still afraid to use the Sony 'Cinema EX A/B/C' effect on top of DD or DTS. In some movies they added to the soundscape, but in others they ruined it. TV programs were weird, some shows lost the dialogue completely with Cinema EX, while others sounded great.
Now I run all my movies on bare Dolby Digital or DTS, music on stereo and games mostly on stereo.

 

[London Geezer]

I'm still afraid to use the Sony 'Cinema EX A/B/C' effect on top of DD or DTS. In some movies they added to the soundscape, but in others they ruined it. TV programs were weird, some shows lost the dialogue completely with Cinema EX, while others sounded great.
Now I run all my movies on bare Dolby Digital or DTS, music on stereo and games mostly on stereo.

(we're a bit off-topic, but until someone comes up with some more jak2 impressions....)
personally i listen to musice on Studio B settings cause the voice comes out from the central speaker and it's more clear (the sound processor must be filtering the stereo sound "trying" to pick up the voice frequency and put it on the central speaker, and it sounds pretty good to be honest)

 

[rabidrabbit]

Is there any extras in JakII if you have a completed J&D game save on memcard, like in SH3 you got some extra cutscenes if you had SH2 save?
I remember reading long time ago, that there would be some reward in JakII for those that completed J&D with all the orbs collected.

 

[London Geezer]

hopefully they won't be "exclusive" to people who have their J&D game saved on mem card. cuz i dont, and it would suck if certain things could ONLY be seen if i played J&D...
in SH3 those extras become available after finishing the game once, with or without the saves SH2 game on mem card. the only difference is that if u do have the SH2 save, u can see the extra bits the first time u play the game...

 

[Phil]

...some further impressions [without spoilers]...

I am currently at around 60% of the game at just about 16 hours stacked in. Don't take this as reference though, as I spent the last 4 hours trying to get passt one of the really difficult missions (which I will not explain due to potential spoilers). Lets just say that the game is very challenging and it already got me close to frustration many times. Some may even say that Naughty Dog upped the play time this way the cheap way - though it really doesn't bother me. It ain't impossible and the fun thing is, many missions require different approaches to get through them. One of them for instance required some very stealthy approach, one that I did not try until the very end, being very close to frustration. The challenge however was getting there, figuring out these different approaches. The city, while incredibly huge might be one of the things people may dislike most - especially those that loved the first part, Jak & Daxter, like myself. The huge is ultimately some kind of hub which will get you, Jak, running from point A to B many times in the game - for example when getting missions, executing them etc. The big annoyance, as already mentioned in one of my earlier impressions, is that this can be very difficult, especially when still at the beginning of the game. Good news is, it gets easier as you get better at the game. It even becomes fun, once you aquire the hoverboard. This is definately the most brilliant thing Naughty Dog implemented IMO: anything you aquire can be used at any place in the game. This is a gold feature and makes the game so much of fun. One thing I found out is that you can use the hoverboard as quite a powerful weapon if you're good at doing flips and letting the board rotate insanely quick while in a jump. Doing this, you can not only accelerate (with practise) but actually hit anything that might be in your way. The tricks by the way are quite a thing in this game. I've never played Tony Hawks Skating game, but reading up on impressions let me suggest that it isn't much different, though probably being a light version. Still, it's really so much of fun hovering around the city (or anywhere) doing all these kind of flips and tricks.

Tearing was an issue, but quite francly, it isn't anymore. It's still there, mainly in the city, but trust me - after having well over 10 hours stacked in, blood pressure (or loss) at insane heights - you won't really notice it anymore, it's quite rare. At some point, I even thought they were absent after being so disturbed by them at the beginning. So technically, this game is right up there with the best available in my book.

So, who here has the game already? Impressions?

Oh and please for those of you that have impressions, please ensure there are no spoilers. Thanks.

 

[ChryZ]

So, who here has the game already? Impressions?

I would post impressions, but I am too busy enjoying the game. Just a few brief comments: I am at around 40%@4,5h and I find it hardly challenging, most missions I finished in one go. The cut-scenes are hilarious, the animation of Daxter is close to Pixar class. IMHO, travelling the city is fun ... usually I shot some guards to spice things up a little. The hover vehicles are wicked, the physics are fun for sure! Gameplay, graphics, sound-fx ... one of the best games (this gen) so far. Back to Jak2 ...

EDIT: whoops ... 41%@07:06 time flies, when you're having fun

cut-scene

hub-world/city:

 

[Reaver_STHLM]

Impressions, impressions...

Hey guys, first time poster.

I've had the game for a few weeks now, and have stopped playing it since I've finished it. I reviewed the game for my website www.gon.nu (it's in swedish, don't bother =)) and gave it a 5/6 score. Hence, I like it.

I don't LOVE it though. There are several reasons for this. One, the graphical problems you've all talked about are very real indeed, and this sort of busts up the illusion of a seamless, perfect world. This is bad, 'cause ND have obviously struggled a great deal with making you feel immersed in the game, and it sucks that they've only just got it right.

Also, the sense of size isn't always up to snuff. I remember playing Ocarina of Time on the N64 and sitting in the big tree overlooking Lake Hylia for HOURS. Just because the world was so vibrant and because it felt so cool that you could go from bein down there, to up here in an instant. In Jak II, you can't really do this. ND have tried hard to give you great views of the city skyline etc. but it doesn't work as well as it should. It's very apparent when they swap the standard model of the city for another one. And falling down from the big fortress above the city should, in my opinion, result in my falling to my messy death in the same surroundings I was in before taking the elevator up, if you catch my drift.

As said, these little "tricks" are very obvious, and while it's understandable that keeping the entire city in the RAM just to please some guy that thinks he should be able to fall to the ground "for real" isn't really technically doable, I would've liked it.

Still, apart from small technical hang-ups, I like this game just fine. As far as platformers go, this one will redefine many things, count on it.

P.S. Sorry if I'm a bit incoherrant, haven't written in english in a while. D.S.