Is the Used Game Market Damaging the Industry?

Nobody is suggesting taking away GameSpot's rights to trade used games..

Good posts from you archangelmorph, but the message probably won't get through.

I'd rather lose video games than lose rights.

:smile:

We're just suggesting the games should be viewed differently when being sold by an individual & by an organization (on an enforcement level that is) to allow used game royalties to be passed back to the publishers, as a possible solution..

It's not even that, there is already an agreement between the publisher and the retailer. It's a simple matter that a publisher should be compensated when he pays to advertise for a retailer, and that retailer sells a used version of the game rather than a new one. Pretty standard profit sharing agreement, nothing anti-trust about it.

Any organization that is just buying copies from a distributor wouldn't have one of these agreements and could do what they want. The problem is the advertising of the major retailers is paid for by the suppliers, so they get a bit bitchy when the retailer is skimming their sales.

If the situation got bad (which it's not even close to that big of a deal yet), you can bet a number of publishers would pull products from EB/GS. EB/GS could put the product on their shelves, they would just have to pay for any advertising by themselves (and not get any shelf space fees either). I don't see that realistically ever happening though.

fearsomepirate said:
It's real simple.
It is, and this 'problem' will be resolved without any laws or horrible loss of 'rights'. It is just publishers whining for an adjustment to agreements that already exist.
 
It is, and this 'problem' will be resolved without any laws or horrible loss of 'rights'. It is just publishers whining for an adjustment to agreements that already exist.

The only problem here is that publishers and developers think they should be paid for a service someone else is offering.

I am going to go buy some used games in honour of this thread. :)
 
It really doesn't matter as manufacturer and publishers will push for digital distribution which start to marginalize game centric stores like GameStop in the long run.

In about 10 years, I bet GameStop will be recording annual losses year over year and you will be like me when I pass strip malls and wonder where all the warehouse music stores went (except with GameStops).

Then manufacturers and pubs will turn their attention to crying about piracy
 
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The only problem here is that publishers and developers think they should be paid for a service someone else is offering.

How dare they expect a return on their investment in a retail outlet. :rolleyes:

dobwal said:
It really doesn't matter as manufacturer and publishers will push for digital distribution which start to marginalize game centric stores like GameStop in the long run.

I agree, that and some other (Walmart) pressures.
 
How dare they expect a return on their investment in a retail outlet. :rolleyes:

How much money does a publisher lose if GameStop buys used games that don't sell? Publishers aren't taking the risks on the used market, why should they be entitled to the profit?
 
Publishers aren't taking the risks on the used market, why should they be entitled to the profit?

Publishers are paying for the advertising and marketing of their products at EB/GS. The risk is their money being spent on ads, endcaps, posters, free demo CDs/DVDs/BluRays, that does not result in sales.

When a publisher pays EB/GS for advertising Burnout Paradise, then a Burnout Paradise sells, whether it's new or used they should get a cut.
 
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Publishers are paying for the advertising and marketing of their products at EB/GS. The risk is their money being spent on ads, endcaps, posters, free demo CDs/DVDs/BluRays, that does not result in sales.

Without new sales there are no used sales.

When a publisher pays EB/GS for advertising Burnout Paradise, then a Burnout Paradise sells, whether it's new or used they should get a cut.

No.
 
The only problem here is that publishers and developers think they should be paid for a service someone else is offering.

I am going to go buy some used games in honour of this thread. :)

I don't understand how one person's view suddenly become the views of an entire industry!?

Don't make such unnecessary generalizations in future..
(i'm sure not everyone in the industry agrees with my views..)

Anyway I think too many people are getting my stance twisted up..

My hope is that developers & publishers we be free to trade there produce without fear of some secondary market springing up that undercuts sales that we *could* have been making..

As I expressed earlier, ammending video games IP rights to be much more like those of general software (however less stringent against the consumer) is just one possible solution.. I also mentioned publishers entering into the retail space as another possible (however implausible) one..

I just don't see things getting better on a software development front with regards to costs & unless something drastic is done to change the current business model at least at some point in the future, I fail to see how it can continue to be a viable business..

Also as I stated, I'm not a fan of the idea of widespread digital distribution options because it isn't going to counter to issue of content value (whether a game is worth $60, $40 or however much the publisher chooses to charge for it..), there are going to be issues regarding available bandwidth, game sizes & user storage capacity (there are games upwards of 20GB now talk less of what they're going to be like next generation..) & stricter "property rights" WILL be a given whether anyone likes them or not..
 
I don't understand how one person's view suddenly become the views of an entire industry!?

Don't make such unnecessary generalizations in future..
(i'm sure not everyone in the industry agrees with my views..)

You're trying to over analyze my comment, it was never intended to include all, just any that think profits from used sales are rightfully somehow theirs.

Anyway I think too many people are getting my stance twisted up..

My hope is that developers & publishers we be free to trade there produce without fear of some secondary market springing up that undercuts sales that we *could* have been making..

As I expressed earlier, ammending video games IP rights to be much more like those of general software (however less stringent against the consumer) is just one possible solution.. I also mentioned publishers entering into the retail space as another possible (however implausible) one..

Do you expect to lower the value of a product with no repercussions? If you want to sell games for 25% less initially and in doing so remove a used market you might find a favorable reception to that from consumers. The problem would be, I don't think publishers would make more money using that model.

I just don't see things getting better on a software development front with regards to costs & unless something drastic is done to change the current business model at least at some point in the future, I fail to see how it can continue to be a viable business..

Where does all the doom and gloom come from? Activision and Ubi both reported record revenue, I'm not sure about EA but I don't think they are suffering horribly either.

Also as I stated, I'm not a fan of the idea of widespread digital distribution options because it isn't going to counter to issue of content value (whether a game is worth $60, $40 or however much the publisher chooses to charge for it..), there are going to be issues regarding available bandwidth, game sizes & user storage capacity (there are games upwards of 20GB now talk less of what they're going to be like next generation..) & stricter "property rights" WILL be a given whether anyone likes them or not..

Digital distribution certainly isn't going to become a reality if more ISPs start to head the direction Time Warner is with download caps.

Publishers can try to stop Gamestop from making money by limiting consumer rights, but I don't really see how that helps them. Any product has a certain perceived value to each consumer, part of that current perceived value is the resale value. If you remove the resale value, you make your product worth less, this gives you the option to lower the price, or endure lower sales.
 
(i'm sure not everyone in the industry agrees with my views..)

People in various industries tend to see consumer rights as a threat, and view whatever government market interference that helps the bottom line as a good thing. Big surprise, people tend to support what makes them richest quickest. However, because (at least under the free-market principle) our rights to own and trade property are inherent rather than granted to us of the benevolence of our corporate masters, it truly does not matter whether people in industry consider our rights to be a good or a bad thing. We may as well say that if the government does not find our rights to free speech, association, press, etc beneficial, we should not have them. Whether a right should be taken away or not has nothing to do with whether or not someone out there feels they could be making more money or have more power were this right taken away.

In fact, some rights are actually intended to restrain and hinder certain entities. For example, free speech, press, association, etc are in the US Constitution for the purpose of preventing government power from expanding to the point of tyranny. This right is to positively thwart the government and make it less efficient and powerful. Similarly, one purpose of property ownership rights is to prevent private entities such as corporations and entrepreneurs from exerting tyrannical control over our lives. Another purpose of the free market principle is to prevent weak, poorly managed, ineffectual, useless companies from tying up financial resources and crippling growth in necessary areas.

My hope is that developers & publishers we be free to trade there produce without fear of some secondary market springing up that undercuts sales that we *could* have been making..

Translation: You are against the free market, period. You should be intellectually consistent and be against the sale of all used goods, despite your counterfactual belief that video games do not depreciate on the open market.

I just don't see things getting better on a software development front with regards to costs & unless something drastic is done to change the current business model at least at some point in the future, I fail to see how it can continue to be a viable business..

If it's not a viable business, it should go out of business. If it comes to the point where it is impossible to make a video game and make a profit, what that means, as much as this will sadden you and me, is that our culture and society no longer needs a video game industry. However, I doubt this will ever happen. Innovative, clever, resourceful companies will always find a way to make video games and make money. Video games are fun. People will always like them. It may be that the market can't sustain too many games that cost $25m+ to make, and that's just the way the market works.

Companies go bankrupt because they spend more money than the market actually values their product. Now you may think that games with $20m budgets are a beautiful, special thing that human society actually needs. However, if you as a developer blow $20m making a game, and you're only able to sell ~125K copies at $60 a pop before people lose interest in buying the title new for full price, it is you, the developer, who has failed to produce a valuable product, not the government who has failed to take away someone else's rights or the consumer who has failed to exercise them.

Now you've complained before that it's tough to figure out how to produce valuable product. According to free market principles, and this is the dog-eat-dog principle everyone hates, companies that aren't smart enough to figure out the market don't deserve to be in business. Take Ford for example. Ford is way, way, way more important to our civilization than any self-important video game developer. Ford's an American icon, part of American history, part of our whole mythos and culture. But you know what? They're poorly managed, they don't know how to deal with unions intelligently, and they can't figure out how to make a car that people actually want. As a result, their market share is falling like a stone, they haven't made a profit in ages, and they're rapidly selling assets. And as much as I love cars and don't want to see Ford disappear, I can tell you straight-up that if Ford can't figure out how to make a car that people want to buy, they don't deserve to be in business. I don't want the government to step in and force used car dealers to give Ford cash kickbacks on used sales. I don't want consumers to be forbidden to paint "4 sale $5000" on the windshield and park their F150s at the end of the driveway. When the government starts taking away individual rights to keep various people in business, like they did with the DMCA, we are in a lot of trouble, because once governments start taking away rights, they don't really see any limits.
 
People in various industries tend to see consumer rights as a threat, and view whatever government market interference that helps the bottom line as a good thing. Big surprise, people tend to support what makes them richest quickest. However, because (at least under the free-market principle) our rights to own and trade property are inherent rather than granted to us of the benevolence of our corporate masters
...
Translation: You are against the free market, period. You should be intellectually consistent and be against the sale of all used goods, despite your counterfactual belief that video games do not depreciate on the open market.
I don't have time to carry on this debate properly, but I do want to raise this point, that the 'free market' appreciates a distinction between product and IP and has lots and lots of anti-free-market measures in place.

The idea that games on a disc are a product and give you inalienable rights to do what you want with it don't tally with laws regarding other artistic products like DVDs. If you buy a drill or a car and put it in a big room and invite the pubic at £3 each to come look at what you bought, that's allowed. If you buy a DVD and invite the public in to look at the small plastic disc you own, you're allowed. If you project the contents of that disc on your own equipment for them all to see, you are breaking the law. There is a recognised distinction between product and content.

Now I'm no copyright expert and don't know the ins and outs. A quick search on the internet found this rental community which reports copyright law allows rental of private DVDs, games, etc. and I've found this report where the Oxford Union has been 'illegally hiring out DVDs intended for private use, not rental'. They can't both be right!

But the point here is the nature of the product as distinct from a comparable material product you buy. Copyright law recognises a distinction, and allows consumers a lot of freedom. Laws can be changed though, and if certain rights afforded the consumers are considered unfair on the artists creating them, the law could (and should, if the majority agree with it) be changed to restrict the rights.

I'm saying what should be done in this industry - I don't rent and don't play many games, so have no position. I'm only trying to point out that a different view from 'I own the physical medium so I can do what I want with it' isn't just crazy talk and doesn't stand in the way of free-market economics any more than other accepted market control factors do.
 
There may be a difference between product and content,but as of now buying and selling used games is legal or it would have been stopped,so they must be seen as product .So that argument seems to have been decided. The questions is should the status quo be changed. And I'm in complete agreement with fearsome.
Our free market and rights did not develop in a vacuum out in space by some alien,and then those rules were forced upon us. Our free market was developed by us because it's just the way we as free people want to handle things,it's our nature.
My point is that the game industry can't change that nature. So I'm not worried about the veiled threats that if we don't give the game industry what they want,they will just crack down with digital distribution. People want what they they want,and they will find a way around any hypothetical scenario where the entire games industry controls our content outright. People will take measures.Those measures will range anywhere from illegal actions,to the development of an entire alternate games industry that does meet peoples desires. This is not a fight the games industry will win,they should learn from the music industry and find a way to give people what they want,without repressive measures that just serve to alienate the consumer.
 
I don't have time to carry on this debate properly, but I do want to raise this point, that the 'free market' appreciates a distinction between product and IP and has lots and lots of anti-free-market measures in place.

The idea that games on a disc are a product and give you inalienable rights to do what you want with it don't tally with laws regarding other artistic products like DVDs. If you buy a drill or a car and put it in a big room and invite the pubic at £3 each to come look at what you bought, that's allowed. If you buy a DVD and invite the public in to look at the small plastic disc you own, you're allowed. If you project the contents of that disc on your own equipment for them all to see, you are breaking the law. There is a recognised distinction between product and content.

I'm only trying to point out that a different view from 'I own the physical medium so I can do what I want with it' isn't just crazy talk and doesn't stand in the way of free-market economics any more than other accepted market control factors do.

Good points Shifty. Also I imagine that I can't just buy a CD and start broadcasting the content just like that over Radio frequences in the USA, atleast in Finland you can't... The current "free" markets have so many laws, rules and regulations governing them, that I find it odd that one can see them as free now, but if gamestop and publishers make a deal considering the profits from used games, the free market has suddenly ended?
 
The idea that games on a disc are a product and give you inalienable rights to do what you want with it don't tally with laws regarding other artistic products like DVDs.

The DMCA is without precedent in common practice and is recognized by many as a usurpation of both the free market principle and consumer property rights (which includes "fair use").

However, what you are talking about is "unlawful public performance of a work." This is relatively consistent with the copyright principle, which is part of most free market theories. Essentially, the holder of the copyright retains the right to determine how many copies will exist on the market. Unlawful public performance in some sense creates more copies than were originally sold, since an individual copy is implicitly understood to be for one person/household.

By contrast, it has never been the practice that an individual copy of a work is non-transferable. You can sell, loan, or give away books, records, tapes, DVDs, etc. Renting is basically a temporary transfer and included as well. This is because transferable property has always been understood as a basic principle of a free society. This mountain of precedent is why real companies with actual lawyers tend to try and prevent transfer of software via license agreements instead of trying to persuade the courts that video games are so wonderfully special that unlike other artistic works, they inherently cannot be transfered. Of course, there is always the legislative option for taking away rights. They got the DMCA passed, so why not a DMCA II that forbids trading, loaning, or selling secondhand copies of digitally stored information?

Two things about the Oxford example:

1. Oxford is in England; I'm in the USA. England doesn't have the same commitment to certain rights and principles as the USA, especially if we're talking about the free market.

2. I'm talking about rights and principles, not laws. There's a difference. If you accept the free market principle, then you have to be against laws which violate that principle, even if they're in you're own country. For example, the US Patriot Act is held by many (including myself) to violate the free speech principle in a number of places. Hence, I would argue that unregulated rentals are part of the property rights enshrined under the free market principle, and that English law here is simply counter to the free market. In other words, the rights we have under the free market principle are not determined by the government. They can be either upheld or thwarted by the government, but they are not determined by it.
 
but if gamestop and publishers make a deal considering the profits from used games, the free market has suddenly ended?

If Gamestop and publishers make a deal concerning used, that's consistent with the free market principle, since it's not the government taking away your property rights by force, but two private entities agreeing to do business. It also means that if some other store, like my local Play n Trade, wants to buy and sell used games and can make a profit doing it, they still have that right. Thus the free market still stands.
 
I don't have time to carry on this debate properly, but I do want to raise this point, that the 'free market' appreciates a distinction between product and IP and has lots and lots of anti-free-market measures in place.

The idea that games on a disc are a product and give you inalienable rights to do what you want with it don't tally with laws regarding other artistic products like DVDs. If you buy a drill or a car and put it in a big room and invite the pubic at £3 each to come look at what you bought, that's allowed. If you buy a DVD and invite the public in to look at the small plastic disc you own, you're allowed. If you project the contents of that disc on your own equipment for them all to see, you are breaking the law. There is a recognised distinction between product and content.

But the point here is that your showing completely different examples, that are irrelevant.

If i buy a product, and i sell it, that money belong to me, nobody else. Im not leasing out the game, or renting it out, or taking money for showing it, thus your examples are irrelevant, as you cannot do that perfectly legally with any product out there, you would need licences and agreements from the manufacturers and whoever else owns the right.. However, selling things second hand, is different, your transfering all the rights of the product THAT YOU ALLREADY OWN to another costumer, this is legal, matter what the product is.

Its good for this industry to have bancrupcies, its a natural process, and some here speak like they want to defend a certain industry from that, simply because they like games.

Seriously, grow up, or take some economics classes, because frankly this is childish. You want to moderate one industry's rights to benefit them, because you like video games. Thats it. Thats your argument. You want the games industry to be above the law, because you like games and think they are something more than a normal product.

I can buy a movie on a DVD, and i can go out and sell it to anybody i want, nobody other than me will get that money, and nobody but me is entitled to that money, why should a game be different? A game is no more special than a movie, only that its a lot cheaper to make.

Yes, the games industry should try to make deals on getting % from used sales from retail outlets, but they are IN NO WAY ENTITLED TO, and nobody should change that.

If a publishers business model suck, thats their problem, they should either pack up their business, or try to evolve it, thats the natural evolution of a free market.
 
Yes, the games industry should try to make deals on getting % from used sales from retail outlets, but they are IN NO WAY ENTITLED TO, and nobody should change that.

If a publishers business model suck, thats their problem, they should either pack up their business, or try to evolve it, thats the natural evolution of a free market.

I bet the publishers feel like they are entitled to get some of that profit no? Nobody is saying that laws etc. would have to be changed. All I'm saying is that publishers probably feel that they should get more out of their product in this current situation and I can understand them feeling so, considering how much effort they put into creating the title vs what retailers do.

Publishers and retailers operate inside the same industry. High tension and bad blood between business partners is not a good thing. It could easily be beneficial to both sides to make a deal, that way perhaps publishers get a bit more coins and gamestores get to have some saying about digital distribution. In general it's not a unwise to keep good relations with your partners.

The fact that I feel such a deal would also be fair towards publishers in this current situation is kind of besides the point and just my personal opinion.
 
All those conditions of effort and design go into many products out their. Furniture, clothing,electronics,books,paintings etc.. I still have yet to see an proper argument as to why games should be viewed any differently than any other industry.
 
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