Is the PS3 on track to deliver full specs?

[Acert93]

By my estimates, you've got CELL running somewhere around 100 Watts, RSX at around 50 Watts, the BDRD at (totally guessing here) 30 Watts, the 2.5 HDD at around 10 Watts, and another 10-20 Watts for the various other devices (BT2, card reader, etc) all probably with at LEAST an 80% efficiency PSU, so we're talking about a what 240-250 AC draw, so an additional 40 Watts heat to cool... ... ... ... ... >.> <.< >.> on the other hand that's quite a bit ain't it? Well, this is based on PC standards and some large guessing on my part, numbers outside of RSX don't really consider undervolting and various or actual efficiencies...

Add in XDR and GDDR3.

I agree that in theory RSX at 550MHz should be a cake walk. The base architecture is 12 months old and desktop G70 GPUs were hitting 550MHz last fall at 110nm. The 90nm revisions are in the 650MHz range as you noted and OC even higher. Time has been on Sony's/NV's side and the architecture seems well capable of hitting the target frequencies. And yet I still hear chirping of a possible (but not confirmed) frequency drop to 500/650.

That said there were a lot of rumors of Xenon being 2.8GHz and Xenos at 350MHz in mid-Summer last year, and part of that due to dev kit situations, and MS hit their targets in the end. So I take the rumors with a grain of salt. At some point Sony will confirm one way or another. Until then we will have to weather the storm of fans

 

[nonamer]

A BD Drive is gonna use like 5W seeing how we have them in laptops and such. The HDD is a laptop drive too.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

<slaps forhead> RAM!!

It totally skipped my mind, Thanks acert. Oh, acert where have those rumors about the 500 drop originated from? Someone you trust (can you say?) or general internet burble?

Nonamer, 2.5 HDDs are usually generalized to about 10 Watts, while 3.5 are usually regarded at being 15 Watts. As for the BRD... well, your standard 5.25 DVD drive usually requires somewhere between 10-15 Watts (slims can almost halve that, as far as I'm aware), so simply gave a guess that BRD's blue laser would double that (remember I'm working based on peak)...

Actually, forget my estimates, why not take it from the horse's mouth...

POWER CONSUMPTION: 1.1A max (+5V DC), 2.2A max (+12V DC)
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INT...urners&ProductSKU=BWU100A&TabName=specs&var2=

 

[hey69]

cpu WILL be 3.2ghz. all devstations are 3.2 Ghz. no point on developing on 3.2ghz devmachines if the final machine is 2.6 or something like that.

 

[Docwiz]

I think you're a bit confused/uneducated on the matter from the start on the matte.

The Cell chip is a 1 PPE/8 SPE chip by design, it's true - but the Cell inside of the PS3 will have only 7 SPEs active. They are taking one away in order to increase the yields of useable system chips. As far as whether the Cell will meet the prior announced seven functional SPEs on chip - then yes Sony is on track for that.

There are no implications, and no later PS3's will have the eighth SPE enabled. If you were to hold off on buying a PS3, Blu-ray drive concerns would IMO be the *only* concern. Now those might very well be valid though...

Wait, isn't it 6 SPE's for games and one for the OS?

 

[Guden Oden]

the BDRD at (totally guessing here) 30 Watts, the 2.5 HDD at around 10 Watts

That was a pretty overexaggerated guess! The BR drive is a 2x device, at that speed it'll consume far, far less than 30W, likely less than 10. It does 10x DVD though, however I am not sure how much the spindle motor would actually require at that speed. 30W is an awful lot (subtracting a small amount for the on-board drive electronics and optical head).

A 2.5" HDD draws around 3-4W tops. Even most desktop drives don't require 10W, particulary when just spinning on idle. They barely warm up when just sitting there in the open...

and another 10-20 Watts for the various other devices

That's also a pretty big margin IMO... BT for example has an incredibly low transmitter power output, like 0.0025W or somesuch silly number. I have a wifi USB plug that heats up a bit, but USB only delivers 2.5W at most anyway and I doubt it actually draws that much. I don't know what transmitter output the wifi standard allows unfortunately, but less than 2.5W in all for the entire radio and its attached electronics at most. The question then is, how hot will the southbridge chip run? If like most southbridges it doesn't require a heatsink, then it'll be low single-digit watts (or else it'd kill itself).

Anyway, I can fit a similar thermal characteristic PC into an ARIA SFF (8x10x13) and have no troubles, though it is a tad warm (quiet though), and that's with the air flow path for the case being total junk.

Yeah, that's the thing with PCs, they're just a jumble of components lashed together inside a box. Expect the flow to be very optimized inside PS3, at least as refined as in the 360, if not even more so.

Meh, don't mind me... I'm just mumbling my thoughts out loud...

Thinking out loud is fun tho, isn't it?

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

That was a pretty overexaggerated guess! The BR drive is a 2x device, at that speed it'll consume far, far less than 30W, likely less than 10. It does 10x DVD though, however I am not sure how much the spindle motor would actually require at that speed. 30W is an awful lot (subtracting a small amount for the on-board drive electronics and optical head).

Yeah, I know I messed up...
POWER CONSUMPTION: 1.1A max (+5V DC), 2.2A max (+12V DC)

A 2.5" HDD draws around 3-4W tops. Even most desktop drives don't require 10W, particulary when just spinning on idle. They barely warm up when just sitting there in the open...

I did some checking... modern 3.5s use around 7.5-10 Watts and 2.5s use no more than 5 Watts. Looks like I was off by at least 5 Watts, Sorry nonamer, Guden.

That's also a pretty big margin IMO... BT for example has an incredibly low transmitter power output, like 0.0025W or somesuch silly number. I have a wifi USB plug that heats up a bit, but USB only delivers 2.5W at most anyway and I doubt it actually draws that much. I don't know what transmitter output the wifi standard allows unfortunately, but less than 2.5W in all for the entire radio and its attached electronics at most. The question then is, how hot will the southbridge chip run? If like most southbridges it doesn't require a heatsink, then it'll be low single-digit watts (or else it'd kill itself).

Well, in this case I was also considering parts that may be included for BC, those you mention, and along with (I'm thinking) multiple fans. I just used some general estimates/rules for the values, like "always leave 2 Watts per fan". I tried looking for info on power consumption since you're right in me being so off, but all I found was 1 milliwatt for bt2... I'll look up more later, but yeah it's a lot lower.

Yeah, that's the thing with PCs, they're just a jumble of components lashed together inside a box. Expect the flow to be very optimized inside PS3, at least as refined as in the 360, if not even more so.

Well, I think it depends on the case. Some are designed with some very nice airflow paths (p180 from antec comes to mind), but yeah PCs don't have the luxury of a closed box set up. I'm hoping the PS3 will do a good job, there's definately room for improvement with 360's design... the tapered duct never seemed smart to me.

Thinking out loud is fun tho, isn't it?

Yup, great for insomnia too!

 

[Carl B]

Yes, I would definately pick up a 2 year extended warrantee if buying a launch PS3 mainly because of the BR drive.

If you're going to be an early adoptor, please do yourself a favor and get an extended warranty. We're talking about a lot of parts and a lot of new concepts being turned into a product. Don't put too much faith in CE devices.

I said the same about 360's (not on this board) but no one listened and I got ridicule for it

Thanks guys, but I think I can handle myself.

My policy is no extended warranties ever. My launch PS2 is still workin' fine, and I take care of my stuff. I figure if there *is* to be a problem with launch PS3's, it'll likely be obvious and make itself apparent within the manufacturers warranty. I'm not so impatient that I need the thing replaced the same day, y'know?

@Megadrive: Are you buying into that Inquirer hype? Cell at 3.2GHz for sure... RSX, well maybe a 50MHz downgrade. We'll see.

@Docwiz: How is my saying 7 SPEs different than your saying 6 SPEs and 1 for the OS? That's still seven hardware SPEs you know.

@RobertR1: Ok I'm back at you Robert... stop with your BD hatin'! You know PS3 is going to be a great BD player, with their range of supported audio formats already announced, so no need for all this sublimely anti-BD speculation from you.

 

[Geo]

Inq is now on the "RSX downgrade" bandwagon: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33995 Frankly, after that Captain Queeg-like mini-rant at the bottom of the piece, I'd pull a reporter from that beat. I mean, sheesh.

As for Sony, I know your reaction, you are going to start a whispering campaign on the forums like last time. Please give the PR genius who thought that one up a promotion and a raise. It worked so well to cower me that I got more inside sources disgusted with you third rate backstabbing attempts than I got in a year. Please do it again, I didn't take offense last time, and I promise not to this time.

Umm, yeah. I'm convinced on the "didn't take offense" part.

 

[macabre]

I bet his inside sources are from a certain other company.

 

[rabidrabbit]

If you're going to be an early adoptor, please do yourself a favor and get an extended warranty. We're talking about a lot of parts and a lot of new concepts being turned into a product. Don't put too much faith in CE devices.

I said the same about 360's (not on this board) but no one listened and I got ridicule for it

Funny, but I've never took any extended warrantiesd on any of my home electronics purchases, and I've been an early adopter in more csaes than one.
Actually, I've never had any problems with my devices. Generally all of them last what can be expected (in my case I use them at least three years, often six or so, after which I upgrade and give my old, working stuff away)

Let's see:
-My TV's have all served perfectly until I've felt the need to upgrade, actually many of them are still in service as I've given them away to friends and relatives. They've been from various well-known brands.
- My Hi-Fi gear, the same thing. All of them In working condition.
- My consoles.
PS worked 100% from launch to PS2 launch, after which I gave it to my brother who continued using it for a year or so. It did stop reading discs reliably after that.
N64, well, I didn't own it but a couple of years after which I sold it in need of money
PS2, bought at launch, no malfunctions whatever to this day. I expect it to work well after I've bought a PS3.
PSP, bought it about a year and a half ago, no problems.
Cellphones, no problems.
Kitchen appliances and other non-entertainment electrics, most of them 5 to 10 years old and functioning errorfree.

I do take care of my CE though, and keep my environments generally clean and free of excessive amounts of dust.
If you aren't able to take care of your house, smoke inside, vacuum every six months... then it's expected not only your CE is starting to malfunction, and indeed you should take every available extended warranty, insurance... The CE is designed to function reliably under normal conditions after all.

The only thing I seem to have problems is my PC, though. But that's expected really

I think it's a myth modern electronics are so fragile pieces of kits they generally break down before warranty period. The manufacturing and QC aren't that bad that the doomsayers like to make you believe, really the stuff you can buy today is quite sturdy and reliable.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but I think it's downright silly to claim if you're going to be an early adopter, you'll be generally facing problems with your gear.

That's not true, that's propaganda.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I'm not so impatient that I need the thing replaced the same day, y'know?

I am that impatient. And at $50 for 2 years, it's a damn small price to pay, not to mention the fact that an EW would allow you to get a free replacement in 2 years when they've moved down to 65nm and are on the 2nd or 3rd BR hardware revision.

Seems like an absolute no brainer to me. I don';t have any stats to back this up, but from my experience the failure rate on these new consoles is an order of magnitude greater than normal consumer electronics, so the usual rule of thumb that says EW are generally a rip off doesn't apply in these cases.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Seems like an absolute no brainer to me. I don';t have any stats to back this up, but from my experience the failure rate on these new consoles is an order of magnitude greater than normal consumer electronics, so the usual rule of thumb that says EW are generally a rip off doesn't apply in these cases.

What is your experience? Which of your consoles broke before due time?

 

[Sonic]

I've not seen any evidence that consoles have a higher failure rate than other electronic devices. Personal experience is one thing but it has to be seen from a mass market perspective. Also, it may be imaigned that consoles have a greater failure rate as that is being discused so often in this forum compard to any other electronic devices. I'm sure other forums dedicated to those will have more personal experiences with failures regarding audio, video, and other electronics.


My main concern for Sony is having the BRD drive finalized. I hope they don't have to delay PS3 until after the holiday season as that would end up being really bad for them.

Why would the RSX need to be downgraded if a similar chip is running fine at speeds faster than it? I wonder how badly that would affect game development with current games. Then again, I'm sure the devs would know about such a thing months in advance so they would be able to adjust accordingly. Even still, it would be pretty sad.

The only upgrade I think would be nice is another 256 MB of XDR memory for the main RAM.

 

[Carl B]

Inq is now on the "RSX downgrade" bandwagon: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33995 Frankly, after that Captain Queeg-like mini-rant at the bottom of the piece, I'd pull a reporter from that beat. I mean, sheesh.



Umm, yeah. I'm convinced on the "didn't take offense" part.

Yeah Charlie's defnitely lost his mind on this one - I think I have to write something up to address his descent into madness.

But as to the 'meat' of his post, there has been talk of 500/650 on the RSX, and this comes from sources better than the Inq's I can assure you. But at the same time, 'specs are subject to change,' so you know the deal...

I frankly find it surprising that 550/700 would be a hard target to reach though, so personally I still give it good odds.

Charlie though... what the hell is going on with him?

 

[-=P3tRaN=-]

as for the 3.2 GHz clockspeed of CELL and the 550 MHz clockspeed of RSX, it looks like those have been lowered significantly.

Inq is now on the "RSX downgrade" bandwagon: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33995 Frankly, after that Captain Queeg-like mini-rant at the bottom of the piece, I'd pull a reporter from that beat. I mean, sheesh.

Umm, yeah. I'm convinced on the "didn't take offense" part.

since the other thread got locked, I kindly redirect my question here:

is this story true? or not true?

 

[Carl B]

since the other thread got locked, I kindly redirect my question here:

is this story true? or not true?

Well, read the post above yours I guess.

 

[Tap In]

....there has been talk of 500/650 on the RSX, and this comes from sources better than the Inq's I can assure you. But at the same time, 'specs are subject to change,' so you know the deal...
....

interesting XB.

I was wondering what you knew/heard about this.

Not that it's too big of a deal... just a little bullet point (especially if Cell remains 3.2) but thanks for your input.

 

[Carl B]

interesting XB.

I was wondering what you knew/heard about this.

Not that it's too big of a deal... just a little bullet point (especially if Cell remains 3.2) but thanks for your input.

Yeah I frankly don't think it's a big deal (performance-wise) at all; it's just a head scratcher more than anything since one would imagine if any component in PS3 could be pulled off easily, it'd be RSX at the announced specs. My theory is the voltage differential required to reach that extra 50MHz was deemed not worth it in terms of wattage consumption and system thermals.

And of course, again, it's not locked in stone...

Cell really is where it's at though in PS3, and it's still where it's supposed to be. I'll add to that that I have an *awesome* interview coming up very very shortly on Cell. Oh Cell... let me count the ways!

 

[N00b]

I frankly find it surprising that 550/700 would be a hard target to reach though, so personally I still give it good odds.

The problem might not be the sony's ability to produce RSX chips that reach 550/700 but rather the necessity to meet certain thermal and power consumption requirements for the whole system.