Importance of 60 fps in arcade/simulation racers *spawn

[Sigfried1977]

I like to believe that especially on this forum, where the majority of posters can be considered to be "hardcore" to "above average" gamers, we don't want our games to be dumbed down and sold on the premise of better graphics at any cost.

Good one.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Why don´t allow a 720p 60fps option?.

 

[London Geezer]

Why don´t allow a 720p 60fps option?.

Because 720p/60 probably wouldn't be much easier to obtain than 1080p/30? As I said, it's not all about graphics and fillrate.

 

[tuna]

Ahh i almost forgot why you used to live on my ignore list

Do you honestly think that was my point?

You wrote: "They have the luxury of being able to tweak their game to their liking in pretty much every aspect and end up with a fast super controllable game that plays awesome no matter what framerate."

So in what frame rates can they make a fast game that plays awesome?

 

[-tkf-]

This might just be a minor point, but games are not only created with "how they feel" in mind - there are many more variables to consider: What are the trademark features of the game? Gameplay limits and bounderies? How good should it look, perhaps in order to give it an advantage (in PR terms) over its competition to achieve more sales? etc.

It's at the end a triangle of visuals / framerate / logic complexity (AI, physics, gameplay) and a studio has to decide which compromises it makes to get the best out of these 3 areas. A game dedicated on framerate and logic complexity will make shortcuts in the visual department, a game on the opposite end the other way around. That's why they are called trade-offs. You're effectively trading-off "gameplay aspects" for either graphics or framerate, "feel" (framerate) for visuals or any other combination.

Just because a game is 30fps does not mean the game wouldn't feel or play better at 60fps. It's more likely that the team felt the "tradeoff" of settling for 30fps was "good enough" for the majority as long as they can play the hype card of having the prettiest racing game on the market. If they can get more sales by doing this, fair play to them.

The biggest issue I have with 30fps games is that games are being sold on the premise of foremost graphics. If the majority of devs go for graphics over framerate, it makes it more difficult for other devs to ever seriously consider 60fps because it would probably mean their game would look substantially worse (in screenshots) than the competition, perhaps resulting in less sales ultimately. That's why I think it's great that sites like DF devote their analysis to framerate - a feature in games that can't be seen in 30fps Youtube captures or screenshots, but is an integral part of any game. It's important to raise this awareness IMO.

I like to believe that especially on this forum, where the majority of posters can be considered to be "hardcore" to "above average" gamers, we don't want our games to be dumbed down and sold on the premise of better graphics at any cost. This might be a bit harsh considering I'm sure EvolutionStudios made a terrific game, but there should also be a line at some point that should not be crossed.

Lets just to be clear, i am mostly a 60+ fps guy, i prefer racing games, fps etc at high framerates, i adjust the graphics as needed on my PC to get so close to solid 60 as possible.

I agree on most of your points and i doubt this discussion will bring anything new to the table anyway or convince anyone of something new. It's my experience that racing games made with 30fps in mind can be just as fun as 60fps, can feel just as fast and can deliver entertainment on level with 60 fps games.

 

[MrFox]

I'm much more worried about the tradeoff between an accessible arcade feel versus a simulation feel, it dwarfs the question of 30 vs 60.

 

[Billy Idol]

I wonder if this game will have a campaign mode, as e.g. MS Apocalypse?

Wrt framerate: MS series is 30fps...and I had the most fun and frantic action ever with those games and could surely feel the sensation of speed.

High fps are good, sure...but high fps don't make a game good automatically...as imo low fps don't make automatically a bad game. Thinking about it...this discussion seems a bit stupid to me...right?!?

I demand more games for our next gen consoles, to prevent such discussions...born out of boredom it seems

So...just release the game and see what happens. It is to late anyways to change things...

 

[patsu]

Yeah I don't mind a well implemented 30fps racer. Loved the Motorstorm series too.

 

[Phil]

Just to be fair; I quite liked Motorstorm too despite its framerate - but on the other hand, Motorstorm isn't the "grippy" streetracer type of game. On most tracks, you are on dirt, so you're always drifting to a degree. Then you're also playing in a lot of heavier vehicles that are more laggy. The framerate is quite noticable (the jerky-ness in the surroundings, although that too is hidden with quite a bit of motionblur), but the game itself doesn't suffer much because the vehicles don't have that grip to have any snappy movement. I don't think DriveClub aims to be like that - you're mainly racing real cars in semi-real conditions. It may not be a simulator like GT or Forza, but I think it will be close enough - perhaps a bit like many NFS games (the older ones) where the game comes across as realistic even if the physics aren't calculated down to every detail like perhaps some other games do.

 

[tuna]

It's my experience that racing games made with 30fps in mind can be just as fun as 60fps, can feel just as fast and can deliver entertainment on level with 60 fps games.

Has anybody ever claimed that 30 fps games cannot feel fast?

 

[London Geezer]

Yes. In this very thread.

 

[tuna]

OK, I must have missed that. In what post was that claim made?

 

[Inuhanyou]

Originally Posted by tuna
Me, arrogant? Nonono....

You can make a great racing game at 30 fps but you can't make a great fast racing game at 30 fps.

 

[HTupolev]

Originally Posted by tuna
Me, arrogant? Nonono....

You can make a great racing game at 30 fps but you can't make a great fast racing game at 30 fps.

Strictly speaking, that does not imply that a 30fps game can't feel fast.

Tuna's suggestion in that post seems to be that a racing game can feel fast at 30fps, but if it does, the choppiness will sufficiently detract from the experience that it won't be great.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I don't know how one comes to that conclusion. In any case, he said you can't make a fast racing game at 30. So..

 

[HTupolev]

I don't know how one comes to that conclusion.

Tuna never said that you couldn't make a racing game feel fast at 30fps (and has very pointedly implied that you can), but has claimed that you can't make a great fast racing game at 30fps.

My interpretation is the only option.

In any case, he said you can't make a fast racing game at 30.

Where?

 

[-tkf-]

Has anybody ever claimed that 30 fps games cannot feel fast?

did i say anyone did..

 

[-tkf-]

Tuna's suggestion in that post seems to be that a racing game can feel fast at 30fps, but if it does, the choppiness will sufficiently detract from the experience that it won't be great.

And there is plenty of examples that proves him wrong..

 

[tuna]

I don't know how one comes to that conclusion. In any case, he said you can't make a fast racing game at 30. So..

To quote myself: "You can make a great racing game at 30 fps but you can't make a great fast racing game at 30 fps." Unless you think the only thing that makes a racing game great is the speed (or sense of speed) I never stated what you claim I did.

Anyway, it is quite simple. If you are traveling at 60 m/s (meters per second) you will move 1 meter per frame at 60 fps and 2 meters per frame at 30 fps. This leads to quite a big loss of control which makes the game worse. You can try to give the same sense of speed at lower speeds by having narrower tracks but than you can't really have a realistic setting. And of course, you can have even higher speeds (and control) at 60 fps on narrow tracks as well.

 

[Xbat]

I dont know man you clearly say you cant make a great fast racing game at 30 fps. fast being the only difference between your two statements. Great racing game at 30 fps but not a great FAST racing game at 30 fps.

Another thing is do you really think you dealing in meters when you going at over 200 kph.