Immersion Polls Gamers On PS3 Rumble

[TheChefO]

Actually, they DID sell their stock back to immersion:

Back to Immersion or just "sold" in general?

 

[Tap In]

Actually, they DID sell their stock back to immersion:



Link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6153305.html

thanks

there goes that underhanded theory.

 

[Angelcurio]

Back to Immersion or just "sold" in general?

The article does not go into specifics. Made a mistake.

 

[wco81]

That's completely unfounded speculation.

The 360 is by far the noisiest console out there, no doubt about it. It's noisier than most PCs in fact, simply because PCs typically do not have a 10x DVDROM drive going at full speed constantly.

I think many do care about noise, especially as fan and DVDROM noise happen to not be very pleasant sounds to the human ear. Then again, there's nothing that says the PS3 REALLY will be any quieter, maybe it needs seven fans from hell to keep everything cool, I've no idea. However, if it IS quieter, I'd rather game on a quiet system than on a noisy one, that's for sure. Assuming sound and graphics are roughly equal in both versions, that is.

Didn't Sony claim the PS3 would generate the same noise levels as the PS2 Slim?

Hmm, X360 is maxing out the DVD-ROM RPMs? Maybe that's another thing to consider in the DVD vs. Blu-Ray for games debate, if in fact the Blu-Ray drive turns out to be much quieter than the X360.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it were a frivilous patent it would not have been granted and certainly would not have held up in court.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Goodness, I never knew such innocent naivety still existed in the world

It would be great if the patent system were infallible and perfectly just, but it isn't. It's one of the worst, most 'butchered' aspects to modern law. There's so many things wrong with it, it's painful. Many patents are granted that violate the rules of a what a patent should be, and the law courts and knowledgeable enough to be able to fairly uphold or overturn patents as needed.

 

[Sis]

First they sue them with a frivolous patent, and then attempt to make a mockery of them in public to get them to do business with them?

This is eally about how one feels about patents, not about using polls to convince companies about the value of a product.

We can skirt around the issue all day, but the bottom line appears to be: patents are bad (or at least this one is) therefore the company holding the bad patent is bad and does bad things...

 

[jb]

That's completely unfounded speculation.

The 360 is by far the noisiest console out there, no doubt about it. It's noisier than most PCs in fact, simply because PCs typically do not have a 10x DVDROM drive going at full speed constantly.

I never said it was not noisy. I just said that in a typical set up for games, what ever noise it did make is probably not the make or break factor in the average Joe's buying choice of which console to get . And I really doubt most of the Average Joe's will be able to hear that over their sound level of their game. But that would depend on the setup I suppose...

 

[Bobbler]

This is eally about how one feels about patents, not about using polls to convince companies about the value of a product.

We can skirt around the issue all day, but the bottom line appears to be: patents are bad (or at least this one is) therefore the company holding the bad patent is bad and does bad things...

This really doesn't have anything to do with patents, it's the fact that Immersion is being underhanded in their approach to get Sony to recognize them. They've been making public comments about how PS3 is going backwards because of the lack of rumble (which may or may not be true in a small sense), then making polls with questions/answers that are so skewed as to be next to useless in gathering any real information, just to get the public more aware (and more upset) of the percieved problem. Immersion is pressuring Sony into adding rumble by getting the consumers upset (more upset than usual, that is), not by impressing Sony with a good deal or an excellent product, which is how most solid business ventures generally come about -- it's actually very close to racketeering (although this is a legal and less harmful version)... it's causing an artificial problem (or making an already present problem worse) just to sell your product/service that just so happens to fix that problem. It's just outright shady, and I think they should look for a different way of doing business -- am I going to lose sleep over it? not likely, but it doesn't mean I can't get mildly annoyed on a forum.

The patent being stupid is another story all together, I'm sure Sony has a few stupid patents too -- Sony and Immersion are playing the legal game as any smart company would and I can't quite feel sorry for Immersion when Sony is appealing right and left (they'll probably have to pay sooner or later) and I don't feel bad for Sony when Immersion sues them after scoring that patent.

 

[Powderkeg]

This really doesn't have anything to do with patents, it's the fact that Immersion is being underhanded in their approach to get Sony to recognize them. They've been making public comments about how PS3 is going backwards because of the lack of rumble (which may or may not be true in a small sense), then making polls with questions/answers that are so skewed as to be next to useless in gathering any real information, just to get the public more aware (and more upset) of the percieved problem. Immersion is pressuring Sony into adding rumble by getting the consumers upset (more upset than usual, that is), not by impressing Sony with a good deal or an excellent product which is how most solid business ventures generally come about -- it's actually very close to racketeering (although this is a legal and less harmful version)... it's causing an artificial problem (or making an already present problem worse) just to sell your product/service that just so happens to fix that problem. It's just outright shady, and I think they should look for a different way of doing business -- am I going to lose sleep over it? not likely, but it doesn't mean I can't get mildly annoyed on a forum.

Sony owes Immersion $90 Million and counting, and refuses to pay.

Keeping that in mind, how would you suggest Immersion goes about convincing Sony to not only pay the $90 Million they owe, but license their tech for future products?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Keeping that in mind, how would you suggest Immersion goes about convincing Sony to not only pay the $90 Million they owe, but license their tech for future products?

Stick through going through the law courts like any other mature, professional business, in the same way Sony are tied to complying with the law once it finally says 'no more skirting arounf the issue, pay up.' But until the law courts confirm categorically Sony owe the money, Immersion can't claim it. And stupid as the law is, it allows the courts to change their mind, so a party may be found guilty once or twice and then let off. As long as there's a chance of Sony being cleared of paying anything, they're entitled to resist and Immersion just have to sit it out.

Also this questionnaire isn't about getting the money owed them, but trying to get more money from getting into PS3. Immersion should work on their sales pitch to the console manufacturer if they've failed to convince them including Immersion tech is a good idea.

 

[Powderkeg]

Stick through going through the law courts like any other mature, professional business, in the same way Sony are tied to complying with the law once it finally says 'no more skirting arounf the issue, pay up.' But until the law courts confirm categorically Sony owe the money, Immersion can't claim it. And stupid as the law is, it allows the courts to change their mind, so a party may be found guilty once or twice and then let off. As long as there's a chance of Sony being cleared of paying anything, they're entitled to resist and Immersion just have to sit it out.

That works fine for the legal debt, but what about future income? Simply waiting for the courts to do their thing isn't going to convince Sony to include haptic technology in the PS3.

Also this questionnaire isn't about getting the money owed them, but trying to get more money from getting into PS3. Immersion should work on their sales pitch to the console manufacturer if they've failed to convince them including Immersion tech is a good idea.

OK what sales pitch do you come up with that says "You owe us $90 million, and you should not only pay us that, but license our tech for the PS3 too."

Because there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Sony would license anything rumble related while they have an appeal waiting in court. Doing so would destroy their appeal.

 

[patsu]

But in Asia, business is about trust, relationships and making money together. Immersion doesn't have any friends in Sony now. Rumble is also not a system seller (or we would have heard massive outcry *without* the poll now). And Immersion is taking money from Sony.

Immersion may have to focus on third party peripherals and other markets (if any) in the mean time. If rumble + forced feedback is a solid need for a segment of PS3 owners, the 3rd party peripheral sales result should show. Partnering with game devs/publishers, cost cutting exercises and any investment to lower licensing cost (not licensing price !) may help too.

The current poll doesn't sound like a real marketing exercise (which will likely keep the noise out to get a good objective feedback). It doesn't help with relationship either.

After the lawsuit blows over, wait some time, then come back with a proposal via a common friend. My guess is Immersion can't get any "air-time" or meeting time with any Sony execs at all.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

OK what sales pitch do you come up with that says "You owe us $90 million, and you should not only pay us that, but license our tech for the PS3 too."

You don't. Sony know there's tech out there, and it's their perogative to decide whether to include it or not, for whatever reasons they want.

If a company turns you down, you don't follow up with a campaign to pressure the public into siding with you. That's bad business practise. A interview where they say they think Rumble should be in PS3 is fine, but to commission a weighted poll is cheeky. Business propsitions are turned down all the time. You don't get public campaigns but one company dissing the one that declined your offer. At least not until now. Immersion are acting like politiccians. If you can't convince the public to vote for you on the merit of your policies, get them to side with you by criticising the opposition. Immersions tech isn't enough in and of itself to convince Sony that they want it in PS3, so they try to influence the market against a PS3 without rumble. It's just not cricket!

 

[Sis]

Immersions tech isn't enough in and of itself to convince Sony that they want it in PS3

It was good enough for the PS1 and PS2, and every other contemporary console, but not the PS3? Or more likely, Sony is bitter about the lawsuit, right or wrong, so they are taking their toy and going home.

So who is really being cheeky here? This is just the way business works. The PS3 revenue pie is too large to ignore and if I were a shareholder of Immersion I'd be disappointed if they didn't do all they could to land that contract.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Immersion only now says they can make the rumble work with gyro controller, so why people keep on saying sony is not telling the truth when they say the rumble was removed because it interferes with the motion sensing.

When Sony decided to go with motion sensing, do you (not anyone specifically) think it was before or after the lawsuit?

What if Sony asked Immersion then if they could make rumble that'd work with motion sensing and gyros, and Immersion had no tech ready at the time, nor were sure if and when they'd be able to get one ready (possibly for PS3 spring 2006 launch).
What would Sony have done, told Immersion "That's ok, get it done when you feel like it. We'll delay the PS3 launc even indefinitely if that's what it takes", or "Ok then, we'll do it without then. Motion sensing is after all bigger thing than some rumble. And because you had the nerve to sue us too we call it quits (see you in court).

Just speculating (and I am a bit sleep deprived so this might come out as plain misinformed and silly )

 

[patsu]

Lawsuits aside, it's certainly fair for Immersion to try to get a deal from Sony. But I fear the poll, done in an informal, public way, has reduced that possibility rather than help them. The following are some of the responses I have seen before :

* Sony exec got angered because the poll implied that they do not understand their userbase and needs (and hence an after-the-fact survey is needed to challenge their positions).

* Sony exec got p*ssed because Immersion is trying to tell them how to run their game division (i.e., what should or should not be included, and why).

* Sony execs still have no time for rumble because it's a solved problem in the grand scheme of things (6-degree motion sensor is next-gen. Rumble does not contribute to next-gen game play and appeals only to a small portion of our user base and our partner, Logitech will gladly address their needs). Why should Sony throw more money at something that is not strategic at this point ? Why not spend the money more wisely on Playstation Online ? or more exclusives ?

* Sony middle level doesn't feel happy because they may have done their part to conclude that rumble is non-critical *in general*. The informal poll is trying to change their conclusion in a vested manner. Even if Sony middle level did not meet to discuss rumble, or run any studies (what for ?), they will not thank Immersion for bringing up a "dead" issue.

* Sony staff just laugh off the Internet poll as a weak, not-so-savvy attempt to trap Sony. No one will feel smart about bringing up Immersion for any opportunities.

Who does Immersion want to work with in Sony ? Do they have a money making deal for Sony ?

 

[expletive]

Lawsuits aside, it's certainly fair for Immersion to try to get a deal from Sony. But I fear the poll, done in an informal, public way, has reduced that possibility rather than help them. The following are some of the responses I have seen before :

* Sony exec got angered because the poll implied that they do not understand their userbase and needs (and hence an after-the-fact survey is needed to challenge their positions).

* Sony exec got p*ssed because Immersion is trying to tell them how to run their game division (i.e., what should or should not be included, and why).

* Sony execs still have no time for rumble because it's a solved problem in the grand scheme of things (6-degree motion sensor is next-gen. Rumble does not contribute to next-gen game play and appeals only to a small portion of our user base and our partner, Logitech will gladly address their needs). Why should Sony throw more money at something that is not strategic at this point ? Why not spend the money more wisely on Playstation Online ? or more exclusives ?

* Sony middle level doesn't feel happy because they may have done their part to conclude that rumble is non-critical *in general*. The informal poll is trying to change their conclusion in a vested manner. Even if Sony middle level did not meet to discuss rumble, or run any studies (what for ?), they will not thank Immersion for bringing up a "dead" issue.

* Sony staff just laugh off the Internet poll as a weak, not-so-savvy attempt to trap Sony. No one will feel smart about bringing up Immersion for any opportunities.

Who does Immersion want to work with in Sony ? Do they have a money making deal for Sony ?

Well I dont see how the poll can make immersion have any less technology in the PS3 controller.

The way i see it, they've got nothing to lose.

 

[Tap In]

Didn't Sony claim the PS3 would generate the same noise levels as the PS2 Slim?

Hmm, X360 is maxing out the DVD-ROM RPMs? Maybe that's another thing to consider in the DVD vs. Blu-Ray for games debate, if in fact the Blu-Ray drive turns out to be much quieter than the X360.

I don't know what people are listening to their games with but with my 5.1 sound I don't hear jack-chit except for surround sound magnified.

As for movies I never even hear the machine either, but then I'm not obsessed with listening for it either.

 

[patsu]

The way i see it, they've got nothing to lose.

...except their future with Sony.

Well I dont see how the poll can make immersion have any less technology in the PS3 controller.

Technology alone does not make deal happen. Some technology brings more values to the table than others. For every cent saved on rumble, Sony can invest it elsewhere.

To give Sony credits, they should already know the impact of dropping rumble *before* announcing it. The poll won't change the business dynamics except to create rift.

 

[avaya]

If it were a frivilous patent it would not have been granted and certainly would not have held up in court.

Reading the patent for myself, I find it shocking that you could seek to patent such a device or method. It is very vague.

When one looks at the public character of the company as a whole, it would seem the first answer is the correct one. And yes it is silly that it has come down to this but company pride has got in the way of success many times before. Not that I think Rumble will make or break them mind you, it would take a lot of mistakes to break them. They do seem to be racking them up lately though.

Complete agreement.

Well, your recollection is poor.

Immersion applied for the patent in 1994, but wasn't actually awarded the patent until late 2000. Once they were granted the patent they approached both Sony and MS with their claims to the tech and requested royalty money. Negotiations took place, and ultimately neither one wanted to settle, so in early 2002 Immersion filed the lawsuit.

There was less than a year and a half gap between the time the patent was awarded and the time the lawsuit was filed in court. That's totally normal for a case like this where there had to be a lot of lawyer interaction before the lawsuit could be filed.

I did not hear about this part, many thanks for filling in the blanks.