Immersion Polls Gamers On PS3 Rumble
- Thread starter Angelcurio
- Start date
I don't get why Nintendo and Sony just doesn't put a dynamic speaker coil and magnet in their controllers.
It would allow for much more precise and controllable rumble (maybe not a quite as powerful as an eccentrically mounted weight, but that would easily be excused in a battery driven device).
I don't believe anyone could ever sue them for that.
After all, dynamic speakers are over hundred years old and in the event someone even tried, they could just claim to have really dump/cheap hardware designers that that left out the diaphragm, no crime in that.
It would allow for much more precise and controllable rumble (maybe not a quite as powerful as an eccentrically mounted weight, but that would easily be excused in a battery driven device).
I don't believe anyone could ever sue them for that.
After all, dynamic speakers are over hundred years old and in the event someone even tried, they could just claim to have really dump/cheap hardware designers that that left out the diaphragm, no crime in that.
Why don't they just put a single-motor rumble in there and/or never use the sequence of wobbles that got Immersion so hot and bothered in the first place?
The way I understand it, Immersion managed to get a patent on add tactile feedback of ANY sort to software. So that covers any kind of technology that could produce rumble as long as it is controlled by software.
This is why the article says "Now, it appears that Immersion is trying to force the issue and garner more revenue for its exceptionally wide-ranging patentl"
EDIT: Nintendo just hasn't been sued, but that doesn't mean there technology doesn't fall under Immersions patent. Immersion waited a long time before suing anybody, and the first were Microsoft and Sony, as these were probably easier and more lucrative targets, as well as considered proper test-cases by lawyers. If Immersion is finished with Sony, then depending on the outcome, Nintendo might still be next.
Anyway, although there are good ways of using rumble, and the 360 shows that it can be improved to be used more effectively, for me the 6 degrees of freedom is much more interesting.
Reasons for me why that might impact vibration feedback:
1. to be able to use that effectively, you need a very light controller.
2. the batteries drain far too quick when using rumble on the 360s controller right now
3. precision is key ... I'm assuming and hoping that the PS3 controller is very, very precise, to the point where you could use it as a pointer almost. If that goes at the cost of rumble, it's worth it.
4. price ... sony needs to keep the controller price firmly under control. First of all, Immersion licence fees add to the cost. And that money goes indirectly to Microsoft. Also, it may be too costly to have everything sorted out properly, especially given the brief time-frame. They should probably already have started production, so they can't expect too many delays.
5. time ... as in 4, they may not have enough time left before production to sort all the extra issues out. In fact, drawing up licencing agreement with Immersion alone might already take too long.
Of course, you might try to also buy stock like Logitech and Microsoft and settle stuff that way, but again there might be too little time.
Suffice to say, the matter is complex, and there are no guarantees. At the same time, this may all just be tough negotiations going on between Sony and Immersion. If they can't agree on the price (which would include the settlement fee for the PS2), then they might as well call off the deal.
So in short, if you can have both, that would be fine. But if it comes at a price, it depends a lot on the actual price.
Sure, if we were talking tilt only, then losing rumble isn't worth it. But we're talking accelerometers also, and I'm very curious to see how precise they managed to get those. For instance, if I slowly lift the controller - will it detect only my initial movement, or will it detect my constant movement? And precise will it translate this?
If it is as precise as I hope, then there will be a *lot* of uses for this ...
I so wish I was a developer right now and my job was nothing else than discover interesting ways to use the new controller! I'm already holding the DS2 in my hand sometimes to see what would be possible. For instance I noticed that one hand can easily hold the controller, with the thumb controlling the analog stick and index finger using the R1 and R2 buttons. It feels a lot like holding a gun actually, with the R2 button feeling like pulling a trigger to boot.
Also I wonder if you were to provide the lowest points of the controller with mouse like smooth bits, would the accelerometer be precise enough to be used as a mouse?
Questions, Questions ...
Maybe I could ask if Guerilla needs a developer who focusses on the new controller exclusively ... ?
This is why the article says "Now, it appears that Immersion is trying to force the issue and garner more revenue for its exceptionally wide-ranging patentl"
EDIT: Nintendo just hasn't been sued, but that doesn't mean there technology doesn't fall under Immersions patent. Immersion waited a long time before suing anybody, and the first were Microsoft and Sony, as these were probably easier and more lucrative targets, as well as considered proper test-cases by lawyers. If Immersion is finished with Sony, then depending on the outcome, Nintendo might still be next.
Anyway, although there are good ways of using rumble, and the 360 shows that it can be improved to be used more effectively, for me the 6 degrees of freedom is much more interesting.
Reasons for me why that might impact vibration feedback:
1. to be able to use that effectively, you need a very light controller.
2. the batteries drain far too quick when using rumble on the 360s controller right now
3. precision is key ... I'm assuming and hoping that the PS3 controller is very, very precise, to the point where you could use it as a pointer almost. If that goes at the cost of rumble, it's worth it.
4. price ... sony needs to keep the controller price firmly under control. First of all, Immersion licence fees add to the cost. And that money goes indirectly to Microsoft. Also, it may be too costly to have everything sorted out properly, especially given the brief time-frame. They should probably already have started production, so they can't expect too many delays.
5. time ... as in 4, they may not have enough time left before production to sort all the extra issues out. In fact, drawing up licencing agreement with Immersion alone might already take too long.
Of course, you might try to also buy stock like Logitech and Microsoft and settle stuff that way, but again there might be too little time.
Suffice to say, the matter is complex, and there are no guarantees. At the same time, this may all just be tough negotiations going on between Sony and Immersion. If they can't agree on the price (which would include the settlement fee for the PS2), then they might as well call off the deal.
So in short, if you can have both, that would be fine. But if it comes at a price, it depends a lot on the actual price.
Sure, if we were talking tilt only, then losing rumble isn't worth it. But we're talking accelerometers also, and I'm very curious to see how precise they managed to get those. For instance, if I slowly lift the controller - will it detect only my initial movement, or will it detect my constant movement? And precise will it translate this?
If it is as precise as I hope, then there will be a *lot* of uses for this ...
I so wish I was a developer right now and my job was nothing else than discover interesting ways to use the new controller! I'm already holding the DS2 in my hand sometimes to see what would be possible. For instance I noticed that one hand can easily hold the controller, with the thumb controlling the analog stick and index finger using the R1 and R2 buttons. It feels a lot like holding a gun actually, with the R2 button feeling like pulling a trigger to boot.
Also I wonder if you were to provide the lowest points of the controller with mouse like smooth bits, would the accelerometer be precise enough to be used as a mouse?
Questions, Questions ...
Maybe I could ask if Guerilla needs a developer who focusses on the new controller exclusively ... ?
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Shifty Geezer said:
I doubt we will see that big of a difference in most games that show up on both consoles...granted there will be some differences (and could be big differences) and there will be some ports that suck...but I think on average the game play experince will be simmular on both.
Guden Oden said:
I suppose differnt setups and different hearing abilites for the users will make it hard to compare noise levels. But being noisy when your playing a game is hardly a factor I would bet for a large part of the people out there.
Meaning my xbox360 is on its self next to the TV, I am 10 feet away on the couch, enjoying the large screen TV gaming experince and I got the Surround Sound at a nice volume (ie enought so I can hear it well, but not loud enough to the neibhors can hear it). And for some reason I don't notice any noise from the 360
jb said:I doubt we will see that big of a difference in most games that show up on both consoles...granted there will be some differences (and could be big differences) and there will be some ports that suck...but I think on average the game play experince will be simmular on both.
I suppose differnt setups and different hearing abilites for the users will make it hard to compare noise levels. But being noisy when your playing a game is hardly a factor I would bet for a large part of the people out there.
Meaning my xbox360 is on its self next to the TV, I am 10 feet away on the couch, enjoying the large screen TV gaming experince and I got the Surround Sound at a nice volume (ie enought so I can hear it well, but not loud enough to the neibhors can hear it). And for some reason I don't notice any noise from the 360
Agreed on both counts.
Also to those who may complain over 360 noise levels, 1st gen ps2 isn't exactly whisper quiet either. It's really a moot point though as they have these things called "av racks" and "entertainment centers" that have glass doors which enable one to mask most of the sound of any component behind the doors. That is of course if one is bothered by such noises.
Sis said:
Because it's an extremely tacky way to do it? It certainly isn't building a business relationship upon solid ground, it's trying to force them into it by creating possibly false demand (skewed poll and lots of public comments to get the internet riled up). First they sue them with a frivolous patent, and then attempt to make a mockery of them in public to get them to do business with them? I'd say the management of the company needs to rethink their strategy -- it sounds borderline racketeering (completely legal in this case, but definitely kind of shady).
With that said, I wouldn't mind seeing Sony's controller with rumble, but on the otherhand I'd prefer it if it wasn't Immersion's because of this type of silly behavior (although I wouldn't be complaining if it was).
That's completely unfounded speculation.jb said:
The 360 is by far the noisiest console out there, no doubt about it. It's noisier than most PCs in fact, simply because PCs typically do not have a 10x DVDROM drive going at full speed constantly.
I think many do care about noise, especially as fan and DVDROM noise happen to not be very pleasant sounds to the human ear. Then again, there's nothing that says the PS3 REALLY will be any quieter, maybe it needs seven fans from hell to keep everything cool, I've no idea. However, if it IS quieter, I'd rather game on a quiet system than on a noisy one, that's for sure. Assuming sound and graphics are roughly equal in both versions, that is.
TheChefO said:It's their tech Sony is using without permission and Sony has been found guilty of breeching their patents and ordered to pay... several times now ... how is this frivilous?
Frivolous as in the patent itself is pretty vague and represents a lot of problems with the current patent system.
If I recall Immersion must have been aware that the DualShock infringed on their patent but waited for the install base of the PS2 to reach a very high level before starting their lawsuit. That's cynical behaviour. Originally they wanted $300m, it's down to $90m now.
Microsoft came to a settlement with them and used it to get at Sony, successfully it seems. As far as I'm aware Microsoft recently sold their stake in Immersion and pay no royalty for the use of rumble in their controllers. Immersion looks as though it will only get the $90m from Sony and no future revenue stream. They are desperate now hence their attempts at a "PR war".
Sony is either too arrogant, angry or simply uninterested in ever coming to a settlement with them viz. the PS3.
It is a silly situation.
avaya said:
If it were a frivilous patent it would not have been granted and certainly would not have held up in court.
When one looks at the public character of the company as a whole, it would seem the first answer is the correct one. And yes it is silly that it has come down to this but company pride has got in the way of success many times before. Not that I think Rumble will make or break them mind you, it would take a lot of mistakes to break them. They do seem to be racking them up lately though.
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avaya said:
Well, your recollection is poor.
Immersion applied for the patent in 1994, but wasn't actually awarded the patent until late 2000. Once they were granted the patent they approached both Sony and MS with their claims to the tech and requested royalty money. Negotiations took place, and ultimately neither one wanted to settle, so in early 2002 Immersion filed the lawsuit.
There was less than a year and a half gap between the time the patent was awarded and the time the lawsuit was filed in court. That's totally normal for a case like this where there had to be a lot of lawyer interaction before the lawsuit could be filed.
And you ALWAYS ask for more than you think you will win when you sue. That's just how lawsuits work.
As far as I'm aware MS never sold their stock in Immersion, and I sure would like to see a link saying they did if you are going to claim that.
Kinda OT but wasnt the reason the PS1 was started in the first place is because Nintendo/Yamauchi kinda dropped Sony disc hardware and future contracts off the design of the orginal SNES/Famicom? And ken kutaragi went to the president of sony and then asked for Sony to make their own console? And we all know what happened after that.
Doesnt seem very forgiving, I would expect the same reaction here. Not saying Sony will develop their own rumble, but it doesnt seem like Sony plans on doing business with immersion again.
Doesnt seem very forgiving, I would expect the same reaction here. Not saying Sony will develop their own rumble, but it doesnt seem like Sony plans on doing business with immersion again.
Bad_Boy said:
I wonder if N ever sits back and thinks "we should have never let them in the game!"Worst business decision ever!
Then again it might have just been delaying the inevitable and Nintendo saw the writing on the wall. Still seems they would have made out better by having them as an ally. I bet they never figured Sony would have turned into the juggernaught of today though!
on-topic - If you were leading immersion would you not be doing the same thing? They are not publicly shunning Sony or ps3 all they are doing is putting a bright hot spotlight on the situation. They certainly aren't portraying anyone or anything in a negative light so I don't see why the fuss with this pr move.
scooby_dooby
Legend
Bad_Boy said:
When did Sony ever 'do business' with immersion?
Angelcurio
Regular
Powderkeg said:
Actually, they DID sell their stock back to immersion:
Link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6153305.html
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