Image Quality and Framebuffer Speculations for WIP/alpha/beta/E3 games *Read the first post*

I think they are using temporal AA since they have upped the vertical resolution of this game from the previous Halo games

They are sacrificing the AA for the resolution which is logical since the subHD thing itself can distract potential customers ( yea i know this is a halo game but nitpickers are always there)
 
Well, my point is why bother with more resolution if you're going to end up blurring it. ;) If the extra 1152x80 can result in a more stable framerate, that is... I do suppose it is ~92K pixels out of ~829K total... not insignificant... or is it. haha guess we'll never know exactly their bottlenecks for *most* of the time. Still.

Anyways, I have spent a little more time on AvP. Both exhibit the custom AA, although it's sometimes appearing more on the 360 in like-for-like scenes. Both seem to be1120x630 (7/8 ratio) as far as I can tell. If it's slightly higher (1152x640 is quite possible and perhaps more likely), please excuse. I'll make another check, but I'm busy and checking more than 80 steps can be troublesome (70/80 or 72/80, you know?). :p

The AA can look pretty nice. :) The PS3 version does have a hit to texture res in several areas, unfortunately (again, as far as I have seen), but the custom AA is pretty interesting at any rate. The extra edge shades can look better than 4xMSAA:

Earlier image from the demo:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/ed21de67129366

The other interesting bit is that it can work on parts of the image but not on other parts. The top of the cylinders most notable in the above image.
 
Well, my point is why bother with more resolution if you're going to end up blurring it. ;) If the extra 1152x80 can result in a more stable framerate, that is... I do suppose it is ~92K pixels out of ~829K total... not insignificant... or is it. haha guess we'll never know.

Anyways, I have spent a little more time on AvP. Both exhibit the custom AA, although it's sometimes appearing more on the 360 in like-for-like scenes. Both seem to be1120x630 (7/8 ratio) as far as I can tell. If it's slightly higher (1152x640 is quite possible), please excuse. I'll make another check, but I'm busy. :p The AA can look pretty nice. :) The PS3 version does have a hit to texture res in several areas unfortunately (again, as far as I have seen), but the custom AA is pretty interesting at any rate. The extra edge shades can look better than 4xMSAA:

Earlier image from the demo:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/ed21de67129366

The other interesting bit is that it can work on parts of the image but not on other parts. The top of the cylinders most notable in the above image.

AvP runs at sub-HD? didn't know that...well at least they did a pretty good job at reducing the jaggies - is it that hard for Bungie to implement a custom AA and get rid of the almost useless temporal AA which causes more problems than solving such ghosting?

Also I have another question guys, anyone checked what resolution Skate 3 is running at? the IQ is definitely a few steps back when compared to the previous games and maybe one of the worst I've seen on the 360.

sub-HD or just a blur effect?
 
Well, being custom AA, the more edges to process, the more work. AvP does have a nice advantage of being almost completely dark and more of a corridor shooter. Different work loads. The AA is nice enough that it kinda hides the resolution on edges, and it's a pretty good implementation, but I have no idea what the cost is in terms of GPU power.

It would be a neat alternative for other games in that it's dynamic, so if the workload is heavy enough it disables, but an entire game generally isn't that consistent anyway i.e. some portions of the game would get the AA.

As for Reach... dunno. The temporal 2xAA in Reach is an interesting trade-off. Some of the shots I've looked at (in sequence) suggest that anything that isn't moving in screen-space still gets AA (and looks good ), but basically anything up-close is moving "fast" anyway so no AA. Makes sense if it is disabling at any camera movement. Basically it's looking for pixel movement. I had assumed the game would be showing off large vistas and environments so it could be a decent trade-off that's also cheap to implement. For example, just moving forwards, the view weapon and anything in the vicinity would lose AA, but anything that's sufficiently far enough away isn't really moving much pixel-wise and it can still get AA, but we're talking *far*. No idea what the game actually has in store, but that's the only justification really (or if you stand around looking at water all day and losing team games instead of actually playing :oops: ... no comment.)

If it weren't for the view weapon being affected, I doubt anyone would even notice (or care).

I'll see if I get a chance to check out Skate 3. In the meantime, is there a demo?
 
Well, being custom AA, the more edges to process, the more work. AvP does have a nice advantage of being almost completely dark and more of a corridor shooter. Different work loads. The AA is nice enough that it kinda hides the resolution on edges, and it's a pretty good implementation, but I have no idea what the cost is in terms of GPU power.

It would be a neat alternative for other games in that it's dynamic, so if the workload is heavy enough it disables, but an entire game generally isn't that consistent anyway i.e. some portions of the game would get the AA.

As for Reach... dunno. The temporal 2xAA in Reach is an interesting trade-off. Some of the shots I've looked at (in sequence) suggest that anything that isn't moving in screen-space still gets AA (and looks good ), but basically anything up-close is moving "fast" anyway so no AA. Makes sense if it is disabling at any camera movement. Basically it's looking for pixel movement. I had assumed the game would be showing off large vistas and environments so it could be a decent trade-off that's also cheap to implement. For example, just moving forwards, the view weapon and anything in the vicinity would lose AA, but anything that's sufficiently far enough away isn't really moving much pixel-wise and it can still get AA, but we're talking *far*. No idea what the game actually has in store, but that's the only justification really (or if you stand around looking at water all day and losing team games instead of actually playing :oops: ... no comment.)

If it weren't for the view weapon being affected, I doubt anyone would even notice (or care).

I'll see if I get a chance to check out Skate 3. In the meantime, is there a demo?

According to urk (who is a guy from Bungie) from the Halo Reach Beta thread in neogaf the weapon ghosting is already fixed so that's definitely good news....also I don't want to sound bitter about Reach as I think that it looks great and it's an improvement in every aspect - also the game plays awesome which is the most important thing of course.

About Skate 3 there are already demos available on PSN & Xbox Live. :)
 
Ah, that would be a pretty good improvement. Is there a direct quote (just for reference)?

I'll see about checking the demos tonight. Otherwise, I'll be in-and-out :oops:
 
Please, did anyone seriously expected a graphical glitch like weapon ghosting to remain in the shipping version of a title like Reach? ;)
 
Please, did anyone seriously expected a graphical glitch like weapon ghosting to remain in the shipping version of a title like Reach? ;)

Someone's got to complain and then get it noticed on that forum (with screengrabs) to kick up a big enough ruckus. ;)
 
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Ah, thanks. Should be interesting to see what's been altered. Even the AO comment in the one weekly update is a bit strange as SSAO does appear in the beta... unless they meant baking the lighting and AO i.e. unfinished map work.
 
overall its alot better then halo 3. Jaggies are alot less noticeable.
the increased resolution plus nice blur effects help alot.

Am I the only one who thinks that in movement Reach Beta is a lot jaggier than halo 3?

In still its absolutely no contest, but as soon as it start moving, specially in that closed arena reach looks so much jaggier than anything i've seen in Halo 3... I had to come back to halo 3 to check if it was just my memory playing with me, but no: for me jaggies in reach is miles worse in movement compared to 3 XD
 
Am I the only one who thinks that in movement Reach Beta is a lot jaggier than halo 3?

In still its absolutely no contest, but as soon as it start moving, specially in that closed arena reach looks so much jaggier than anything i've seen in Halo 3... I had to come back to halo 3 to check if it was just my memory playing with me, but no: for me jaggies in reach is miles worse in movement compared to 3 XD


no way, halo 3 by far is WAAY more jaggier from my experience.
 
Certain effects in the Reach Beta seem to be a bit downgraded from Halo 3. Now it simply could be -due- to the beta, but the elite models look alot less "Shiny" and high rez than their H3 counter parts.

Also the image itself seems to be noticeably clearer than Halo 3's. Is there any sort of temporal AA going on with it? Or is it lacking AA altogether again?
 
Certain effects in the Reach Beta seem to be a bit downgraded from Halo 3. Now it simply could be -due- to the beta, but the elite models look alot less "Shiny" and high rez than their H3 counter parts.

Also the image itself seems to be noticeably clearer than Halo 3's. Is there any sort of temporal AA going on with it? Or is it lacking AA altogether again?

Halo Reach has temporal AA. I love it.

It seems like they removed the cumbersome global HDR that was in Halo 3 from Reach. The game seems like it's missing a layer of lighting. However, the campaign vidoc shows some really nice global lighting in place, so I am guessing it's just mp being less fancy.
 
Certain effects in the Reach Beta seem to be a bit downgraded from Halo 3. Now it simply could be -due- to the beta, but the elite models look alot less "Shiny" and high rez than their H3 counter parts.

Also the image itself seems to be noticeably clearer than Halo 3's. Is there any sort of temporal AA going on with it? Or is it lacking AA altogether again?

the only effect iv noticed thats been downgraded alittle is the water. im guessing to give the cpu more room for other effects. halo 3 water was pretty impressive so dialing it back wont hurt that much.

i have noticed that boneyard is jaggier then the other two maps, mostly when direct light is casted on the buildings. unavoidable i assume.
 
One thing which I never quite understood was why do some games have AO where the occluded area changes as you move the camera ? Like in Gears 2 & Reach if an object is casting a drop shadow ie. AO & if I revolve the camera around the object to make it face the shadowed region the shadow simply moves to the other side of the object facing away from the camera, practically making it impossible for me to have the camera & the drop shadow face each other.

It just looks silly imo.
 
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