Image Quality and Framebuffer Speculations for WIP/alpha/beta/E3 games *Read the first post*

[FATBOT]

New Shots of NG3 for Wii-U:

http://www.abload.de/img/screenshot_2906926gswz.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/ng8ms9y.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/screenshot_290689idsgh.jpg

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Just bullshots I guess?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Just bullshots I guess?

Maybe not. The third pic has clear aliasing at 0x AA in same areas (leaves by bloke).

 

[Quaz51]

the third have AA (x4 at least)
Aliasing on leaves is alpha coverage

bullshots for me

 

[user542745831]

Just bullshots I guess?

Maybe not. The third pic has clear aliasing at 0x AA in same areas (leaves by bloke).

Not necessarily concluding anything from that, but: would that alone really mean anything?

Apparently there were quite a lot of 1920x1080 0xAA pictures from "Tekken 6" for example available at some point, see for example:

http://www.shacknews.com/game/tekken-6/screenshots?gallery_id=11456
http://www.shacknews.com/game/tekken-6/screenshots?gallery_id=12261
http://www.shacknews.com/game/tekken-6/screenshots?gallery_id=12452
http://www.shacknews.com/game/tekken-6/screenshots?gallery_id=12538
http://www.shacknews.com/game/tekken-6/screenshots?gallery_id=12632

But did that make the PS3 and Xbox 360 version render at 1920x1080 0xAA ?

Hint:

Playstation 3

Tekken 6 = 1024x576 (2xMSAA w/o motion blur, no AA w/motion blur)

Xbox 360

Tekken 6 = 1024x576 w/motion blur, 1365x768 w/o motion blur (no AA)

But who knows. And nothing against full 1080p of course .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

the third have AA (x4 at least)
Aliasing on leaves is alpha coverage

bullshots for me

Supersampling should solve aliasing on alpha-to-coverage. If it's not supersampled, are we looking at a PR render mode with MSAA?

I was thinking 4xMSAA at 1080p might be doable given 32 MBs eDRAM, so where my initial reaction was PR shot, I was willing to adjust it to a 'maybe'. We have also got rumours of NG3 being 1080p on Wii U according to Google. Even cynical me is willing to think there's still a chance Wii U can deliver something quite improved over our old, dusty boxes.

 

[user542745831]

By the way, regarding "bullshots" :

For DOA5 they apparently released some pictures measuring from 1920x1080 up to 7680x4320 and apparently sometimes even up to 11520x6480 , see for example:

http://www.shacknews.com/game/dead-or-alive-5/screenshots?gallery_id=22961
http://www.shacknews.com/game/dead-or-alive-5/screenshots?gallery_id=23381

 

[user542745831]

@ "Quaz51":

Just curious:

Are you able to figure out the exact native rendering resolution in the video discussed over there:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1663486&postcount=3261

?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

By the way, regarding "bullshots" :

For DOA5 they apparently released some pictures measuring from 1920x1080 up to 7680x4320 and apparently sometimes even up to 11520x6480 , see for example:

That's what I expect for PR shots, and that'll give supersampling antialising when scaled down, which this NG3 shots aren't exhibiting.

 

[user542745831]

That's what I expect for PR shots, and that'll give supersampling antialising when scaled down, which this NG3 shots aren't exhibiting.

Then what about those for example:

http://images.gamersyde.com/image_dead_or_alive_5-19782-2380_0004.jpg

Source: http://www.gamersyde.com/news_dead_or_alive_5_it_s_tag_time-13089_en.html

http://images.gamersyde.com/image_dead_or_alive_5-20284-2380_0003.jpg

Source: http://www.gamersyde.com/news_dead_or_alive_5_welcomes_gen_fu_pai-13329_en.html

?

 

[AlNom]

That's what I expect for PR shots, and that'll give supersampling antialising when scaled down, which this NG3 shots aren't exhibiting.

I suspect it's their FXAA implementation* (prone to miss edges/mostly sharp, faux-4xMSAA look on certain situations). The compression is borderline heresy, but there are some longer edges with a few pixels blur that wouldn't be consistent with true MSAA either.

*the NG3 shots.

The DOA5 swimsuit shots seem to have 2xMSAA on them upon erm... further inspection. The DOA5 media is very inconsistent anyway - 720p/1080p, 2xAA, post-AA, no AA... gameplay vs training mode vs cut-scenes. Who knows, maybe they handle photomode differently as well.

 

[Quaz51]

Supersampling should solve aliasing on alpha-to-coverage

yes if texel coverage is smaller than final pixel
if texel is bigger supersampling don't solve aliasing coverage

anyway quality of this image is bad, it's like ovsersampled PR screenshot but with a sharpness filter pass (and jpg compression)

 

[user542745831]

The compression is borderline heresy

Any better:

http://www.shacknews.com/game/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge/screenshots?gallery_id=23406

?

 

[Quaz51]

I suspect it's their FXAA implementation*

maybe (NG3 on PS3/X360 have FXAA too?)

 

[AlNom]

maybe (NG3 on PS3/X360 have FXAA too?)

IIRC they do, but their dynamic res system turns it off a lot during gameplay. The cut-scenes definitely had it (well, some of them). The res selection had some rather bizarre behaviour at times. :s There are inconsistencies in various edges (more blurring, less blurring, nothing).

edit:

There are some edges that do show artefacts of PPAA which don't take into account the local contrast. You'd get something like an edge pixel - light pixel - errant pixel - lighter pixel. The "errant" pixel breaks the smooth blur gradient and just sticks out.

 

[user542745831]

Regarding compression:

Just found via search engine:

http://www.z-giochi.com/news/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge-nuove-immagini-disponibili-63055

JPEG, progressive, quality: 98, chroma subsampling OFF (4:4:4)

 

[Quaz51]

Regarding compression:

Just found via search engine:

http://www.z-giochi.com/news/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge-nuove-immagini-disponibili-63055

http://immagini.z-giochi.com/2012/09/003.jpg

don't seem supersampling or FXAA, just 1080p with MSAAx4 (look the ninja big stick) and alpha-coverage aliasing
but probably not ingame screenshots

 

[user542745831]

Just came across this:

http://www.shacknews.com/game/ninja-gaiden-3-platforms-tba/screenshots?gallery_id=21629

Looks like as if a lot of the pictures which were released for the PS3/Xbox 360 version were 1920x1080 as well?

 

[Quaz51]

Just came across this:

http://www.shacknews.com/game/ninja-gaiden-3-platforms-tba/screenshots?gallery_id=21629

Looks like as if a lot of the pictures which were released for the PS3/Xbox 360 version were 1920x1080 as well?

yes seem the same PR screenshots method
1080p rendering too but MSAAx2 (and NG3 PS3/X360 isn't 1080p 2xAA of course)

 

[AlNom]

don't seem supersampling or FXAA, just 1080p with MSAAx4 (look the ninja big stick) and alpha-coverage aliasing
but probably not ingame screenshots

I'm not so sure. If they were using MSAA, it'd definitely show up for the A2C foliage, but it doesn't.

There's inconsistent filtering in a bunch of places. The green belt on the soldier has considerably more blur than elsewhere. Grass blades beside Ryu's knee/legs & left of the soldier's head have signs of blurring, the edges on the SMG are pretty odd too (1-pixel blur for a number of steps and then nothing on the same diagonal).

Really bad edge detection.

---------

Here's a shot of FXAA 3.8

(Console non-linear)

Has a pseudo 4xAA look in some of the images there (need to zoom in lots).

--------

Anyways, just really weird. I could be missing something else of course.

 

[user542745831]

Just wondering:

Here's a shot of FXAA 3.8

Why is FXAA apparently getting mentioned here so often while SMAA apparently is not?

By the way, over there:

http://www.iryoku.com/smaa/#downloads

there apparently is quite a nice tool available, see:

• 
  Precompiled demo [15.8 MB]

Apparently it is possible to load JPG/PNG/BMP images with it and apply various forms of SMAA to them.

Those 1280x720 0xAA "TEKKEN TAG TOURNAMENT 2" screenshots floating around here recently for example appear to be quite smooth once SMAA is applied to them with that tool .