Image Quality and Framebuffer Speculations for WIP/alpha/beta/E3 games *Read the first post*

Kasersky said:
i've been playing around with the mlaa setting on the pc version looking specifically at things with high contrast edges like ebooks and bright lettering and going very low pixel range. the typical kind of artifacting you get with mlaa in worst case. then i looked at the ps3 version and it didnt have the same kind of artifacting under the same conditions. unless AL got some definitive answer i still am inclined to believe both are using fxaa with different presets.
Click to expand...

You may want to consider what differences there may be between PS3 MLAA and the one they've done on PC first.

What I do know about DEHR on PS3 is that edge shimmering is significantly worse.
 
AlStrong said:
It's also a colour pallette that's somewhat unique (monochrome jokes aside).
Click to expand...

But are you sure about MLAA? Because the pop in pixels remember more the FXAA behaviour than the MLAA on ps3.... MLAA tend to pop in only when occurs cross edges, too fine lines or redudant slower camera movements; the artifacs pop in are a little different to FXAA, more 'spread' for the vertex works. FXAA seems use more pixel by pixel (or at least I have perceived this, even on the 360 version); & the pop in is perceivable in the short lines. I see more analogie between the two DE versions than any others use of mlaa in the others ps3 game. My apologies if I wasn't clear.
 
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assurdum said:
But are you sure about MLAA? Because the pop in pixels remember more the FXAA behaviour than the MLAA on ps3.... MLAA tend to pop in only when occurs cross edges, too fine lines or redudant slower camera movements; the artifacs pop in are a little different to FXAA, more 'spread' for the vertex works. FXAA seems use more pixel by pixel (or at least I have perceived this, even on the 360 version); & the pop in is perceivable in the short lines. I see more analogie between the two DE versions than any others use of mlaa in the others ps3 game. My apologies if I wasn't clear.
Click to expand...
Actually,Killzone 3 had similar "look" in terms of jaggies as Deus Ex PS3 version has.It might be duo to artstyle as Al said.
mlaa_002.jpg.jpg

2D_1.jpg.jpg
 
Ruskie said:
Actually,Killzone 3 had similar "look" in terms of jaggies as Deus Ex PS3 version has.It might be duo to artstyle as Al said.
Click to expand...
I don't see any jaggies in these screens, honestly, not like DE. By the way, I'm talking of the different issue of the two custom AA. FXAA gives more 'ripples' illusion on the long linear edges than the MLAA, because has a different approach to cover the aliasing. MLAA gives the same artifacts (like kz3, for the use of the camera 'shaking' or in the subpixels details).just for totaly different reasons. At least is what I seen in the video capture, this what I'm tries to said & give me some doubt.
 
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All post AA filters that only use a single 1:1 rgb image as input (no extra spatial/temporal information) have edge popping / flickering issues in moving scenes. Nothing really can be done to prevent this. Post AA filters actually can pnonounce pixel popping, since popped pixels now affect a larger area (a bright pixel is blurred to it's neightbours). Extra blurring can be used to slightly hide this, but it hurts more it helps.

If we have extra spatial data (subpixels), the edges do not "snap" from pixel to pixel (on/off state only), but we get a smooth transition as the animation occurs in subpixel precision. This is why supersampling based methods (SSAA, MSAA, CSAA, and variations) look better in motion.

Of course you can feed the post AA filter with more information (spatial and temporal) to get better results. This is a really good article if you are interested in post AA filter research:
http://www.iryoku.com/papers/SMAA-Enhanced-Subpixel-Morphological-Antialiasing.pdf
 
sebbbi said:
All post AA filters that only use a single 1:1 rgb image as input (no extra spatial/temporal information) have edge popping / flickering issues in moving scenes. Nothing really can be done to prevent this. Post AA filters actually can pnonounce pixel popping, since popped pixels now affect a larger area (a bright pixel is blurred to it's neightbours). Extra blurring can be used to slightly hide this, but it hurts more it helps.

If we have extra spatial data (subpixels), the edges do not "snap" from pixel to pixel (on/off state only), but we get a smooth transition as the animation occurs in subpixel precision. This is why supersampling based methods (SSAA, MSAA, CSAA, and variations) look better in motion.

Of course you can feed the post AA filter with more information (spatial and temporal) to get better results. This is a really good article if you are interested in post AA filter research:
http://www.iryoku.com/papers/SMAA-Enhanced-Subpixel-Morphological-Antialiasing.pdf
Click to expand...
Judging by the images at the beginning of the document this SMAA technique could be the best post AA technique developed to date, I think. Apparently the guy which created it said in a spaniard forum that this one could really amaze people when they end its development, without explaining why exactly, he just hinted at it.

I think typically known AA PC methods by definition don't work that well on current consoles because of architectural reasons, and this SMAA is the best AA I've seen that looks close to SSAA but doesn't notoriously lose the sharpness, thus degrading image quality somehow. (this is less of an issue as time goes on)

AA techniques will eventually get better. But of course, "better" is relative. ;) I believe they are now so close to the best supersampling methods that there isn't much room for improvement, taking into account the means and actual limitations, but they are impressive.

720p + AAx4 I am okay with, but 2x or less can be really distracting at times. My subconscious plays tricks on me looking at shimmering things. My mind goes... What is so great and uh, eww(sorta)
 
sebbbi said:
All post AA filters that only use a single 1:1 rgb image as input (no extra spatial/temporal information) have edge popping / flickering issues in moving scenes. Nothing really can be done to prevent this. Post AA filters actually can pnonounce pixel popping, since popped pixels now affect a larger area (a bright pixel is blurred to it's neightbours). Extra blurring can be used to slightly hide this, but it hurts more it helps.

If we have extra spatial data (subpixels), the edges do not "snap" from pixel to pixel (on/off state only), but we get a smooth transition as the animation occurs in subpixel precision. This is why supersampling based methods (SSAA, MSAA, CSAA, and variations) look better in motion.

Of course you can feed the post AA filter with more information (spatial and temporal) to get better results. This is a really good article if you are interested in post AA filter research:
http://www.iryoku.com/papers/SMAA-Enhanced-Subpixel-Morphological-Antialiasing.pdf
Click to expand...

The number one QA are:

Numbers for RSX or combo RSX/Cell and Xenos?

Is it running in BF3 for consoles already or planned?

Thanks ;)
 
going by the last gears GTTV episode, even with video compression I think its obvious enough that there is no AA, just too many rough edges and a lot of them should be pick up by post processing AA if they had it. I would assume that its the final build or near final.
 
AlStrong said:
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20110823_472077.html

These shots don't seem to indicate FXAA (that is, where I could find an appropriate edge in the first place).
Click to expand...

Can we assume that, when comparing the gameplay and the cutscene image quality, the cutscenes are all rendered offline this time around?

it's either that, or
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/img/gmw/docs/472/077/html/gow05.jpg.html
the best console image quality ever seen by men (or robot/ alien*)



*unless aliens have far more advanced consoles of course :cool:
 
assurdum said:
:???: I imagine the matter here is... subjective...
Click to expand...
No,its not subjective since that shot is downsampled from big,big resolutions making it absolutely jaggy-less.

Anyway...Looking how FXAA works in Deus Ex,its really shame there is none of it in Gears 3.Some of those screens are quite jagged...
 
Beef Stallmer said:
Can we assume that, when comparing the gameplay and the cutscene image quality, the cutscenes are all rendered offline this time around?

it's either that, or
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/img/gmw/docs/472/077/html/gow05.jpg.html
the best console image quality ever seen by men (or robot/ alien*)



*unless aliens have far more advanced consoles of course :cool:
Click to expand...

Or those screens are just bullshots. The difference in image size would suggest they're not captured from the same source as the in-game screens.
 
Ruskie said:
No,its not subjective since that shot is downsampled from big,big resolutions making it absolutely jaggy-less.

Anyway...Looking how FXAA works in Deus Ex,its really shame there is none of it in Gears 3.Some of those screens are quite jagged...
Click to expand...

I have a bunch of God of war 3 captures that reach the same quality & aren't even bullshot... by the way I thought you did refer of IQ in general & not only to the smoothness. My apologies.
 
I don't know if we should rule out FXAA just yet. Some edges seem to be applied with AA in the recent SP B-roll footage.

Compression aside. Look at some of the edges.

zxGHP.jpg


gnvke.jpg


I'm wondering if we're seeing different builds... Or I'm just letting my eyes play tricks with me. lol:rolleyes:
 
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