HTML5 on consoles

Hmm… PS3 3.50 was released on Sep 20 2010.

This WebKit seems to be built in Oct 2010 (Downloaded the files to check)
 
patsu said:
Hmm… PS3 3.50 was released on Sep 20 2010.

This WebKit seems to be built in Oct 2010 (Downloaded the files to check)
Click to expand...

That doesn't preclude an earlier compile or PS3 inclusion in an earlier Firmware or that PS3 Firmware 3.55 might contain the October Webkit compile version.

Still think Air 2.5 is in the PS3 but there are now more questions about how or what Sony is going to use for a new Browser.

As mentioned, a Webkit may not be in the PS3 at this time, it might be only in development machines. I believe Sony is going to be big in WebGL games and multi-platform games and that would require a Fast clean WebGL browser...

The recent 4 SPU element cell patent might have implications...No Android in any Sony platform? With all Sony hardware based on a Cell, the need for a cross platform OS is eliminated.

No need for Android, no Google TV but Google TV is basically a Webkit Browser with shortcuts and Standards for a UI that works with TVs. In that case I can see more need for Air 2.5 in the PS3.

There is a version of Air 2.5 for TVs that relies on the Hardware platform to supply the Javascript engine and H.264 codec. This is primarily for TVs and blu-ray players and is SOC based hardware support. Sony may have decided to use this version of Air 2.5 and provide their own Webkit javascript engine for use by Air. This Javascript engine would also be in a Webkit browser. This eliminates duplicate code in the PS3 and Sony can spend more time tweeking and improving the performance of this one engine rather than having three javascript engines in the PS3;

IF Google Chrome then: Air's webkit port, Flash 10.1 webkit port and Google Chrome's V8
IF Webkit browser then: Air's webkit port, Flash 10.1 webkit port and Webkit's Squirrel Fish Extreme

The above makes the most sense. I'm out of my element here but the headers and code seen would seem to be just for the Webkit Javascript engine.

Both Air 2.5 and Google Chrome pulled SQLite support for HTML5 out of a Webkit port and supply their own SQLite database code. If support for SQLite is missing from the Sony GNU disclosure code for Javascript then we have our answer; Sony ported Webkit code and removed the unnecessary, duplicate SQLite support so that it would work with Air 2.5 for TV
 
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jeff_rigby said:
That doesn't preclude an earlier compile or PS3 inclusion in an earlier Firmware or that PS3 Firmware 3.55 might contain the October Webkit compile version.
Click to expand...

Aye, I was trying to remember what firmware comes after 3.50. Tried 3.51 - 3.53 in vain. :LOL:
3.55 was released on Dec 8 2010.

Hopefully we will get a real browser soon. That's all I care about in the short term. :devilish:

If Sony has WebKit, they only need a regular Flash run-time to run Flash titles.

For the SMP Cell patent, I think it's more interesting to see what IBM is up to.
 
patsu said:
Aye, I was trying to remember what firmware comes after 3.50. Tried 3.51 - 3.53 in vain. :LOL:
3.55 was released on Dec 8 2010.

Hopefully we will get a real browser soon. That's all I care about in the short term. :devilish:

If Sony has WebKit, they only need a regular Flash run-time to run Flash titles.

For the SMP Cell patent, I think it's more interesting to see what IBM is up to.
Click to expand...

:LOL: Just remember the 5's as in HTML5.

Please re-read my earlier post, I edited it to include what I think this GNU disclosure means.
 
patsu said:
Aye, I was trying to remember what firmware comes after 3.50. Tried 3.51 - 3.53 in vain. :LOL:
3.55 was released on Dec 8 2010.

If Sony has WebKit, they only need a regular Flash run-time to run Flash titles.
Click to expand...

Not confirmed

For Air 2.5 for TV Sony ported Webkit Javascript and the following:

Features in Flash Player on Google TV and AIR on Samsung devices enable this adaptive bitrate playback. In order to take advantage of the various technologies, as well as take advantage of extensive testing already accomplished, Adobe strongly recommends using the Open Source Media Framework (OSMF) for the basis of any video player going towards an embedded device. Adobe provides OSMF free of charge, enabling video players to be quickly enabled to take advantage of all the various Flash Platform capabilities, including adaptive bitrate and our content protection solutions.

For the delivery of the content, there are a variety of protocols that are available in the Flash Platform to enable you to move video over the network:

HTTP Dynamic Streaming (F4F format)
RTMP/e Streaming
HTTP Progressive Download
RTMFP Peer-to-Peer
RTMFP Multicast
Click to expand...

It would seem that Sony could use the Free OSMF to modify the H.264 codec player in the PS3 to support Adaptive streaming. That just leaves Access and Flash runtime support needed as additional code now in the PS3.

So with Air 2.5 for TV in the PS3, Sony provided as do TV and Blu-ray players manufacturers like Samsung, the Webkit Javascript support and OSMF H.264 player.

Seems both Shifty and I were both correct on at least this issue. My being slightly more correct. :p

In point of fact, scooby_dooby was also probably correct about the state of Air 2.5 for mobile devices just not TV as the platform developer, in this case Sony, is responsible for the code that supports Stageview.

My thanks to all of you for the points raised and the information that enabled US to come to this conclusion. :D
 
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Been going through the Webkit GNU Sony disclosure and it appears that a:

geoffrey.levand@am.sony.com had a hand in this port. He was also part of the "Other OS" Linux team. Geoff Levand <geoff@infradead.org>

Subject: GTK: Build JavaScriptCore as installed library Signed-off-by: Geoff Levand

In INDEX were the following:

build-jsc-as-lib.diff
fix-non-video-build.diff This difference is a deletion because Air does not support the <Video> tag it supports <Object> tag
ps3-config-op.diff
ps3-jsc-support.diff
ps3-private/ps3-webkit.diff

Referencing webkit code version (latest) date refs/tags/v2010.10.01


Subject: Add PS3 target to Webkit build configure
Signed-off-by: Geoff Levand <geoff.levand@am.sony.com>

Subject: Add PS3 support to JavaScriptCore
Signed-off-by: Geoff Levand <geoff.levand@am.sony.com>

This is a list of the changes to webkit for the PS3 port.

JavaScriptCore/API/JavaScriptCore.h | 2 +
JavaScriptCore/GNUmakefile.am | 22 ++++++++++----
JavaScriptCore/runtime/Collector.cpp | 7 ++++
JavaScriptCore/runtime/MarkStackPS3.cpp | 40 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JavaScriptCore/wtf/HashTable.h | 2 -
JavaScriptCore/wtf/Platform.h | 38 +++++++++++++++++++++++--
JavaScriptCore/wtf/RetainPtr.h | 2 +
JavaScriptCore/wtf/ThreadSpecific.h | 43 ++++++++++++++++++++++++----
JavaScriptCore/wtf/ThreadingNone.cpp | 1
JavaScriptCore/wtf/ps3/MainThreadPS3.cpp | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++
JavaScriptCore/wtf/ps3/ThreadingPS3.cpp | 46 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
11 files changed, 217 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)

Proof, this is a Javascript HTML5 only port of Webkit to the PS3. Because Sony is listing it, it has to be in the PS3. The latest version webkit file referenced is 10/01/2010 and the GNU disclosure states: Last updated 12-Nov-2010

Support for 3D is turned on in the Config file so Air's Stageview would be "hardware supported"
 
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patsu said:
Nice ! Now if Sony would add Move support to WebKit...
Click to expand...

Careful with the wording as a full port of Webkit is not in the PS3 it's only the HTML5 Javascript engine minus <video> tag and SQLite support.

It's supposed to be in the next version of Vudu which news articles had coming this month so I assume it was in 3.55, That's a guess too, either another Firmware update is coming before a new version of Vudu or support for the Move as an Air Mouse is already in the PS3.
 
Somewhat related…

The Official PlayStation App, Coming Soon To iPhone And Android Handsets:
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010...p-coming-soon-to-iphone-and-android-handsets/

I’m very happy to finally be able to announce on the PlayStation.Blog that we will launch the Official PlayStation App very soon.

The app will be available to download for iPhone and iPod Touch with OS 4 and above, and most Android compatible handsets with a minimum of OS 1.6.

…

In version 1.0 you’ll be able to:

Check out your PlayStation Network trophies and keep up to date with your friends’ games and online status.

Discover all the latest games, news and hardware for your PlayStation 3, PSP and PlayStation 2.

Read all the announcements on the European PlayStation.Blog.

Share your favourite products or news with your friends on Facebook, Twitter or via e-mail.

The first version (1.0) will be available in the following countries: UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and The Netherlands.

...
Click to expand...
 
patsu said:
Fear not. PS3 WebKit browser incoming !
[size=-2]3, 2, 1… hold breath[/size]
Click to expand...

Yeah, some flavor...Webkit, Google Chrome or Google TV.

It's funny now but I got all kinds of flack from "programmers" that it would be too difficult to port Webkit (any flavor) to the PS3 because of the cell plus lack of memory and Sony wouldn't do it. Then in the space of 2 months we have proof of three separate Webkit ports to the PS3.

Sony will want a clean standard for WebGL games so I think Webkit will be the winner. It could be just this already included HTML5 3D enabled OpenGL javascript engine.

Google Chrome does have the advantage of Flash integration (does this mean only one javascript engine? That would make sense as it would reduce the size of the "integrated" package.) and automatic updating of both. With Google's purchase of Widevine, Chrome might include new features for HTML5 DRM.
 
I wrote an Email to Geoff Levand (Sony programmer in charge of the Javascript port, his name is in the GNU license disclosure)

On 12/16/2010 10:50 AM, jeff wrote:
> Can you confirm Air 2.5 for TV is in the PS3.

Sorry, I have no idea what Air 2.5 for TV is. He doesn't know what Adobe Air is???

Yes, we have a port of webkit that runs on PS3. It
is actually a generic Cairo/POSIX port. You can get
what we have for release here:

http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/

It is now just javascript core, but we will be releasing
updates with more support in the coming months Good news is a wekit browser is apparently coming.
Click to expand...

Edit: The player and DRM tool being used with the Javascript engine we know was already ported to the PS3 (above) to support these new IPTV apps is unknown. There are multiple likely choices and doing research as far back as 2007 as well as looking at credits in VUDU for the Sony Broadcast Engine give clues which point to discovering Sony had IPTV service using the "Broadcast Engine" in Korea using the PS3 in 2007. So Sony may have their own player and DRM tool. Netflix does not credit the Sony BE Engine so they may be using their own DRM and possibly player or are using a Sony provided player with DRM hooks and their own DRM tool.

Edit: As of Flash 10.1, it is multi-threaded (like Webkit) and if Sony has the code to port it to the PS3 then a partial port of Flash 10.1 could provide the tools (besides the Javacript engine from the Webkit port) we know must be used to support the IPTV apps. So Adobe Air 2.5 for TV does not need to be in the PS3 to support Flash Media server 3.5 streams. This method of using Flash 10.1 tools would require more support in the PS3 shell these applications are running inside.

Getting started with your webkit port Outlines the issues in porting webkit. Of note, there is no windowing environment for the PS3 and that is required for a webkit port so that must be added to the PS3 OS. There are multiple PD libraries that must be included in a webkit port that are not in the PS3. Apparently this is the attraction of a Google TV/Android OS port as everything is included for a webkit port.

http://cranksoftware.com/blog/?p=188
 
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You should ask him what he meant by "It is now just javascript core, but we will be releasing
updates with more support in the coming months"

Does he intend to switch to V8 later. ;-)
That would tell us whether Google stack is on his mind.

Then again, by the time you read this note, ninjas may have silenced him. :(
 
patsu said:
You should ask him what he meant by "It is now just javascript core, but we will be releasing
updates with more support in the coming months"

Does he intend to switch to V8 later. ;-)
That would tell us whether Google stack is on his mind.

Then again, by the time you read this note, ninjas may have silenced him. :(
Click to expand...

I think he is one of the Ninjas. The information I got from him is so unusable as to seem a deliberate effort to quash any speculation. He only told us what we already know and put a spin on it that is unbelievable.

Information will have to come from another source.

For instance the link I provided has this for Rendering: http://cranksoftware.com/blog/?p=188

The native platform must give WebKit a way to render content to an area of the screen. This includes setting up an area of the screen—or a surface to render to—and provide all of the rendering primitives such as rectangles, lines, and polygons. WebKit renders in a way that’ll benefit from a vector graphics API, but a generic 2D API will suffice. If your platform has a port of the common rendering API such as Cairo, this can easily be leveraged by your port. Consider skipping the more advanced features to get the port off the ground. Ignore scaling and alpha blending until your port is rendering basic pages. Mentioned by Geoff is a Cairo/Posix port.

Cairo is a software library used to provide a vector graphics-based, device-independent API for software developers. It is designed to provide primitives for 2-dimensional drawing across a number of different backends (Including OpenGL). Cairo is designed to use hardware acceleration [1] when available.

POSIX Portable Operating System Interface [for Unix] POSIX:2008: POSIX Base Definitions, System Interfaces, and Commands and Utilities (which include POSIX.1, extensions for POSIX.1, Real-time Services, Threads Interface, Real-time Extensions, Security Interface, Network File Access and Network Process-to-Process Communications, User Portability Extensions, Corrections and Extensions, Protection and Control Utilities and Batch System Utilities)


The native platform must implement a font layer. This includes font loading, caching, and rendering. Don’t underestimate this portion of the port. Most times the font layer can require more time than all of the other layers combined. If your system has Freetype support, this can be leveraged from other ports as this is a commonly used library. Keep in mind that ill configured helper libraries; such as fontconfig, can cause significant performance problems.

Rendering of form elements and scrollbars must be implemented for each port. Usually, this means drawing buttons to match the underlying native controls for the port’s UI. If you’re porting to a system without a UI, then you must still implement the rendering for controls including buttons, text fields, toggle/radio buttons, and scrollbars. Start with another port, such as the Google Chrome Skia version. This’ll give you a feel for what is required for rendering. To get the initial version running, don’t get bogged down making a button look great—a rectangle looks fine to get the inital port running and demo-worthy.
Click to expand...

So a webkit port is useless without also implementing the above unless you use Air 2.5 which includes much of the above.

When Netflix states they ported webkit to the PS3 they would have to do the above which I believe is harder than the compiling of webkit code. In addition if they were porting webkit to test the UI they would need the above framework and they would have to know what would be in the PS3 to duplicate it. SO again just the Javascript + Air, Lovefilm Icons and buttons are exactly the same as Netflix so this must be a part of Air.

Sony could port the Android OS and have a Google TV Chrome browser running on the PS3 in very little time because all the rendering issues for a basic web browser are taken care of by the Android OS, But this browser will not be a clean "standard" nor will it be a WebGL browser which will be able to play web games.

So I would speculate that Sony is not going to port a webkit supported by an Android OS. They will have to port screen support for a modern "windows" to the PS3 and fully support webkit themselves. This would then be a WebGl Webkit browser similar to a Chrome browser on a Linux, Apple or PC platform. This is what I assumed but I have only a vague notion of what would have to be done to the PS3 to support a Webkit.

Sony can still have an Android engine in the PS3 for applications and even fully support an Android OS. But for critical features they must support native language and I believe a WEBGL browser will be totally native language and native screen support.

I'm out of my depth here and if anyone can enlighten or correct my reasoning please do so.
 
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In Sony Playstation Home, Loot has created a Home personal space that implements Apps for a TV screen on a boat. These apps include What's new, Loot, Movie Trailers, On blu-ray PSN, Playstation, Crackle, Revision 3

It's called Loot Lagoon EOD.

Patsu; have you any idea how this is being done.;)

Looks like some sites are adaptive streaming video. Home's main video screeen in the Mall looks to be a higher resolution than before and only requires 3 seconds of buffering. There is also a tutorial video about Home.

Yup, just went low res when it switched to another server for a commercial.

So we have adaptive streaming and HTML5 now in Home. I believe you called it first on this forum...
 
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I don't know if PS Home supports HTML5. It supports XML parsing and launching an external web browser.

Movie streaming in Home was added in the last few releases. You can find video streaming in various Home Spaces, including the boat created by Loot. No idea what technology they are using. Probably the same as the PS3 Flash video plugin ? Both the web browser and Home have tight memory requirements, 'specially the former.
 
patsu said:
I don't know if PS Home supports HTML5. It supports XML parsing and launching an external web browser.

Movie streaming in Home was added in the last few releases. You can find video streaming in various Home Spaces, including the boat created by Loot. No idea what technology they are using. Probably the same as the PS3 Flash video plugin ? Both the web browser and Home have tight memory requirements, 'specially the former.
Click to expand...

Yes they could support what I saw with the Home client by calling the Jpeg display routines, adaptive streaming H.264 (modified with Free Adobe code) as well as the Font library in the PS3 and use XML called from Lua. It would be much easier having the Home client call Javascript to do the above; Javascript would only use about 7 megs. Really I believe XML is aso a part of the routines in or called by javascript so what's the difference except a few megs saved.

You need to look at the Loot Boat EOD, it's similar to what I expected Bravia Internet Video to be on the PS3. Understanding that a Home personal space probably uses less memory this is easily possible.
 
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