HTML5 on consoles

[jeff_rigby]

You mean the number "35" appearing in the version number ?
One simple patch and they'd be out of alignment anyway.

Yes, the only time they will be in alignment is for the Air 2.5 update to both. One simple patch and they will be out of alignment and that is probably coming for the PS3 12/13/2010.

Not a big deal, I just thought it interesting that the Sony programmers might have considered it enough of a milestone to align the numbers.

Would you agree that if true, Air 2.5 in both the PS3 and PSP would be notable?

 

[patsu]

I doubt it. There is really no point in aligning the numbers unless they are superstitious.
Consumers won't notice or remember it.

If they are looking for fun, embedding an easter egg is more entertaining. If they want to leave a message, they can start a blog these days.

http://www.intergalacticgeek.com/2010/11/qriocity-curiously-omitted-from-ps3.html

Sony may be waiting for all Game platforms (PS3 and PSP) to support Ultraviolet DRM before enabling Qriocity.

It is possible that PS3 won't get the Qriocity video store. It already has PSN Videos (may be backend has already changed). They only need to throw in Music Unlimited like Peter Dille promised.

The big question is whether these media services will be better integrated into XMB and other Sony platforms.

 

[androvsky]

It is possible that PS3 won't get the Qriocity video store. It already has PSN Videos (may be backend has already changed). They only need to throw in Music Unlimited like Peter Dille promised.

The big question is whether these media services will be better integrated into XMB and other Sony platforms.

If the Qriocity video store allows you to move purchases between systems, it'd be vital to rename the PSN video store. And if not, they should just for the huge branding boost. Iirc, NathansFortune mentioned in another thread that the PSN store was going to be replaced soon by Qriocity. Which reminds me, for being out for six months in the U.S. apparently, I can find almost no details on how it actually works, only pre-release speculation.

 

[patsu]

I agree. Unfortunately, I also saw a Sony chart that showed PS Video separate from Sony Online Service (which I believe to be Qriocity). I'm leaving it open for now. Sony likes to introduce brands, and is generally unpredictable, I can't tell what they will do in this case.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A coincidence. Version numbers are a record of what level of development you have in product and are releasing. You don't pick and choose version numbers willy-nilly. The addition of a major change will either represent a full version number change, or an increment of suitable value such as point 1 that signifies the internal development departments' rating of the magnitude of change. A well organised development house will have a roadmap for release versions and features, so will plan ahead. Thus in your PSP 6.35 example, you are actually highlighting a much smaller change withing PSP's FW than in the other FW's which rate the change as significant, .1.

Given the millions of version numbers out there, it is inevitable that across some systems there will appear alignments of values. These are coincidences, similar to how the planets will eventually align at certain dates just by their unassociated movements happening to coincide.

Seeing patterns in such data is termed apophenia in psychological circles and it makes deduction unreliable, and muddles conspiracy theories making it hard to determine if a conspiracy exists, or if data is just coincidental. A scientific approach would need statistically relevant data when looking for patterns in numbers. Seeing a 0.05 component in one version number as directly related to a 0.5 component in another strikes me as definitely being apophenia.

 

[jeff_rigby]

A coincidence.

So when I say the Sony programmers may have decided to use 35 in their firmware versions, this is somehow wrong but when you say absolutely it's Coincidence you are somehow more correct? Neither of us can know for certain.

It's an interesting observation nothing more.....with a slightly greater than 50-50 probability that it's significant. With proof that AIr 2.5 is in both the PS3 with 3.5 and the PSP with 6.35 the probability goes up slightly more that it's not random.

Anyone care to guess what the exclusive Sony announcement is about on the 12th?

 

[androvsky]

Anyone care to guess what the exclusive Sony announcement is about on the 12th?

I honestly don't know. The obvious answer is Uncharted 3, but I don't see why that requires a press conference the day after. It might get it anyway. :/ I've heard that it's definitely a game though, so no big Qriocity / Google TV unveiling.

If it's something that needs a separate conference, I'm guessing one of two things. Most likely, Microsoft is announcing a major multiplatform title at the VGAs and pretending that it's exclusive (see Metal Gear Rising), and Sony feels the need to clarify it the next day. It's probably whatever Bungie's next game is.

The minor other possibility is Sony's announcing a game at the VGAs with just a title, and they want to wait a day for the buzz to fester. There's not many titles Sony could do that with, mainly either Uncharted 3 (this would be lame, but I could see it happening), or SCEA is funding a Final Fantasy VII remake (unless SCEA's building the art assests for Square, this can't happen).

 

[jeff_rigby]

I honestly don't know. The obvious answer is Uncharted 3, but I don't see why that requires a press conference the day after. It might get it anyway. :/ I've heard that it's definitely a game though, so no big Qriocity / Google TV unveiling.

If it's something that needs a separate conference, I'm guessing one of two things. Most likely, Microsoft is announcing a major multiplatform title at the VGAs and pretending that it's exclusive (see Metal Gear Rising), and Sony feels the need to clarify it the next day. It's probably whatever Bungie's next game is.

The minor other possibility is Sony's announcing a game at the VGAs with just a title, and they want to wait a day for the buzz to fester. There's not many titles Sony could do that with, mainly either Uncharted 3 (this would be lame, but I could see it happening), or SCEA is funding a Final Fantasy VII remake (unless SCEA's building the art assests for Square, this can't happen).

That's what I have been reading too.

Lower probability but possible for the 12th with a higher probability for CES 4 weeks later is the following: Bravia Internet Video and Qriocity were both announced as coming before the end of the year. They most likely would come in the same package to make Qriocity more attractive. The tools are in place to do this and it looks like the "move" will be enabled as an Air mouse in a firmware update on possibly Dec13th (Vudu announced upgrade). Also Samsung is advertising Air apps in all their new blu-ray players and Sony is pushing the PS3 as a blu-ray player in recent ads so that might have them announce Apps; they may or may not be cross platform but most likely some will work on both the PSP and PS3.

It should be something big enough to generate PS3 sales for this season.

Edit: How about a PSP2 or PSP Cellphone announcement.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So when I say the Sony programmers may have decided to use 35 in their firmware versions, this is somehow wrong but when you say absolutely it's Coincidence you are somehow more correct? Neither of us can know for certain.

Virtually nothing is certain, and I may be wrong as you may be. In forming opinions and expectations, we favour probabilities and likely outcomes, rather than just relying on chance with a flick of a coin. The chances of the version numbers having any synchronicity is very small given that there's no logic supporting the move. The chances of it just being a coincidence is thus very high, being the opposite situtation to the numbers being related.

It's an interesting observation nothing more...

It's not an interesting observation though. It's a pretty much worthless observation regards the attempt to ascertain what's in these firmwares. If you go looking for patterns, you'll see them, but that doesn't mean they are there by intent. If I see two cars next to each other with the same last 3 letters of their number plate, it's a rare occurence in itself but it'd be wrong to see that as proving any relation between the cars or drivers. You may as well cut open a fish and look at the arrangement of its intestines and conclude that natural forces that arranged them that way also influenced the Sony programmers to update their FW figures based on the version number of an included feature where they wouldn't do so normally.

 

[androvsky]

Virtually nothing is certain, and I may be wrong as you may be. In forming opinions and expectations, we favour probabilities and likely outcomes, rather than just relying on chance with a flick of a coin. The chances of the version numbers having any synchronicity is very small given that there's no logic supporting the move. The chances of it just being a coincidence is thus very high, being the opposite situtation to the numbers being related.

It's not an interesting observation though. It's a pretty much worthless observation regards the attempt to ascertain what's in these firmwares. If you go looking for patterns, you'll see them, but that doesn't mean they are there by intent. If I see two cars next to each other with the same last 3 letters of their number plate, it's a rare occurence in itself but it'd be wrong to see that as proving any relation between the cars or drivers. You may as well cut open a fish and look at the arrangement of its intestines and conclude that natural forces that arranged them that way also influenced the Sony programmers to update their FW figures based on the version number of an included feature where they wouldn't do so normally.

The Japanese are known for their love of fish...
...
going to grocery store, brb.

edit: yeah, shouldn't have tried it with breaded fish fillets. Don't think vrml was snuck onto the PS3 in firmware 3.5 for use in Home. Well, it does support streaming video on 3D objects, but... I dunno.

 

[JPT]

There was a lot of talk earlier about Widevine, which seems to be going to be acquired by Google now.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/03/go...artup-widevine-to-bolster-its-own-tv-efforts/
http://www.widevine.com/pr/206.html

 

[jeff_rigby]

There was a lot of talk earlier about Widevine, which seems to be going to be acquired by Google now.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/03/go...artup-widevine-to-bolster-its-own-tv-efforts/
http://www.widevine.com/pr/206.html

I again looked at the Widevine site and it's been updated giving a better understanding of what Widevine provides and in this site:

http://montyinmedia.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/google-to-acquire-widevine-heaven-sent-or-a-devils-deal/#comment-11

It appears that Widevine is used by Netflix as well as Lovefilm and VUDU. The Lovefilm application on the PS3 store is 2 megs in size.

My understanding is that Widevine has an ecosystem that manages DRM as seen in the chart on the link below. It's a classic cloud computing ultraviolet model and those according to Adobe use Access for the DRM tools it provides. Widevine does not provide a downloaded player or DRM tool, they modify the built in H.264 hardware codec and encryption software or SOC with keys and that is the management that Widevine supplies for DRM.

On some platforms Widevine has, in cooperation with platform developers, provided the DRM tools that are included in SOC (may be true for 2009 or older Samsung blu-ray but newer include Air 2.5). Widevine also does not provide the UI (javascript or Java) and the UI javascript server does not even have to be in the same server platform as that providing the streaming video.

I believe that Widevine requires Adobe Air in many platforms for Adobe Access as that provides the tools for DRM and the Javascript for the UI. This is why Netflix from the XMB on the PS3 waited for Air's official release October 2010. In the past Java has been used for the UI and built in hardware codecs were used for H.264 video. All blu-ray players contain Java and a H.264 codec; HDMI was required and simplified DRM protection for Blu-Ray Players.

Javascript UI: Pointed out to me in this forum is that any PD code requires acknowledgement in the product unless it is only linked to PD code. If Adobe Air is being used by Widevine, Widevine does not need to acknowledge the code. Most modern javascript is based on Webkit which is PD Licensed code and has to be acknowledged. I also believe that as a tool used by/linked by other application, they also do not have to acknowledge. Sony should not have to acknowledge it also, Adobe on their Sites must list it.


http://www.widevine.com/tv_everywhere.html

Widevine’s intuitive DRM management tools offer total control over the encryption, key management, distribution and consumption of digital media. Preconfigured policies, digital rights and encryption are applied to inbound assets, automatically registered with Widevine and the CMS, then uploaded to a destination partner network or CDN. Subsequent delivery to CE devices is secured using Widevine’s multiplatform DRM client. (The downloadable Widevine DRM client is a plugin that can be cross platform as it would just be industry standardized information plugged into a Native language DRM TOOL like Access.)

On CE devices the client is in part a plugin, Widevine uses built in hardware SOC that provides the H.264 and has standard plugins for Keys to enable decryption and Adaptive streaming, the Widevine client downloads as a "plugin" and uses the tools provided.

On a PC it would use either Silverlight or Flash (Access) for the tools provided just like CE equipment and the Widevine client downloads and "plugs into" Access

As bandwidth conditions change, Widevine’s adaptive streaming adjust the bit rate to the highest quality video. For an added level of protection the Widevine client monitors, detects and responds to tools that pirate content even after content has been decrypted.

Edit: confirmed, Widevine uses the tools built into the platform for Javascript UI, DRM, adaptive streaming and H.264 codec.

http://www.widevine.com/pdf/wv_common_reliance.pdf

Edit: Most likely it is using Adobe Air in the PS3. Sony ported Air to the PS3 because Adobe would not support Power PC platforms. DRM tools need APIs for processes and addresses that might be sensitive information. It is better done by Sony than having to provide this information to Adobe or Widevine.

Porting industry standard DRM tools and player to the PS3 because of the cell and unique nature of the GPU in the PS3 would be something best left to Sony and done for one DRM tool not multiples. Widevine will not be used by others to manage DRM and they may not be allowed or want to use a Widevine tool for DRM and would probably prefer Access. (The downloadable DRM plugin can be cross platform as it would be industry standardized information plugged into a Native language DRM TOOL like Access.)

Adobe Air 2.5 supports multiple format video streams including HTTP progressive H.264, Flv, QuickTime with a video player and Adobe media server 3.5 and later the same. This is also something that needs coding in native language and must interface with the DRM tool.

With future updates to the PS3, Flash and Air will probably need to be updated. The DRM tool "Access" is highly sensitive to changes in the PS3 OS because it needs to report on multiple PS3 features for a "Fingerprint" ID and to detect commercial blocking and "scrapers". For the most part this is taken care of by Sony with, if they follow industry standards, a small protected (encrypted) prom or portion of firmware which contains information necessary for Access or any industry compliant DRM tool.

Edit side note: This explains why Netfix was available on an Xbox from the main menu before the PS3, Widevine could use Silverlight for the DRM and adaptive streaming tools. On all other platforms Netflix waited for Adobe Air's release October 2010.

There are multiple errors and misunderstandings in news articles about these features. The industry has changed in the last 6 months leaving many of us with incomplete understandings of processes now being used.

News articles are doing a poor job at reporting on this in that they are using terms incorrectly. For instance, they mention that the Samsung 2010 blu-ray players already have the Widevine DRM client installed. What the article should have said is that the Samsung 2010 Blu-Ray players are already compatible with the Widevine client not that the client was already in the blu-ray player. We know from other Articles that Air 2.5 is in these blu-ray players. That would have two DRM tools in them. What is more likely is that with Air 2.5 in these blu-ray players, Widevine can use the javascript and Access DRM TOOL in them to manage DRM. Managing DRM in many cases involves using the tools provided and downloading a client plugin that uses a standard for DRM that most CE equipment have with SOC versions of DRM tools and javascript engines.

 

[jeff_rigby]

One coincidence PS3's 3.5 possible but two with PSP 6.35...doubt it.

Remember they have had this mapped out for almost a year when they announced cloud computing and Ultraviolet. Tying it to the Flash stream version 3.5 which is a more stable number, announced way in advance of the Air version number is also logical. The Flash sites streaming to the PS3 are using Flash stream 3.5, at least the ones that can't use the PS3 browser.

I could go on to point out the "5" in the October official release of Air 2.5, the PS3 Firmware update 3.5, the PSP update 6.35 and the Flash stream 3.5 What are the odds in that happening by accident?

Also, Adobe Air 2.5 supports some of the HTML5 calls via javascript (first to do so). And we have the first version of Chrome on the PC supporting HTML5 is version 5. Flash server 3.5 is the first to support HTML5 and if you look at the choices of version numbers for Flash servers over the last 10 years (a new version about every two years) all except one other are whole numbers. Why the choice of a 5? Coincidence...possibly or are they all trying to tie into the 5 in HTML5.

We also have PS3 version 3.5 which would have Air 2.5 in it as the first case of HTML5 in the PS3 and PSP firmware 6.35 as the first with Air 2.5 to have HTML5 in it. Sony programmers may have decided to use the flash stream number 3.5 in both the PS3 version number 3.50 and PSP version number 6.35 to indicate both HTML5 and the first to support the Flash stream 3.5 in both platforms. IF this is true then I expect SONY considers this a pivotal point for both the PS3 and PSP.

I just had to do this <grin>;

Firmware 3.55 is now out. If you notice we now have another 5 as I believe this update contains Air 2.5 support for the "Move" controller as an Air mouse. Vudu announced another version middle of December that would support the "Move" as a mouse.

Sony says this is a minor update so why the jump from 3.5 to 3.55...to add another 5 because we didn't get it the first time. <grin>

Supporting Shifty's opinion of my thought processes we also have the month of October (release date for Air 2.5) a "10" being divided by the most significant digit in Air 2.5 or "2" giving us another 5. Gee....I'm seeing 5s all over the place and considering I was born October 25 and 5 into 25 gives five 5s this firmware update was specially created for me. <grin>.

Probability the above is true is low, probability that the update contains multiple PS3 hardware support updates to Air 2.5, high considering it must have an update to support the "Move".

There is also the "exclusive" to be announced by Sony after the Spike Awards on the 12th of this month. If this update was necessary for that announcement then we might be hearing about something other than a game. Probability slightly higher than 50-50 (my opinion) only because it was reported as an exclusive game.

Sony should be rocking our socks with announcements of whats to come to generate sales. I expected a Google Chrome or Google TV announcement by this time even if it was going to be released second quarter. An announcement about Air 2.5 and applications considering Samsung is doing this also would be a "large" seller if they also announce the app store and examples of whats to come. It's either the above or a really big game that would generate sales....

There was low key news of a Sony MAG game that was on multiple platforms a few months ago. It was scheduled for about this time or early 2011, an official announcement for the game?

Then we have Qriocity and Bravia internet which would tie into Sony advertising the PS3 as a blu-ray player plus possibly New Sony blu-ray players supporting Air and an announcement of the same for the PS3 with an app store.

There is an internal Adobe project to support 3D not 3-D within Flash and Air, this for games. It requires OpenGL and direct calls to OpenGL from within Flash and Air. This might be coming soon. Demos seem to have near the performance seen in Burnout which I thought impressive.

 

[corduroygt]

Netflix ported WebKit to the PS3 to enable HTML5 goodies, a dynamically updatable UI

 

[jeff_rigby]

Netflix ported WebKit to the PS3 to enable HTML5 goodies, a dynamically updatable UI

http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/07/netflix-ported-webkit-to-the-ps3-to-enable-html5-goodies-a-dyna/

No comment on this guys? It's obviously not accurate as we've gone over this. They are using HTML5ish javascript but if they ported WEBKIT as they stated then they must acknowledge it in the Netflix application...right? At the end of the parent article from Netflix the interviewed mentioned that the DRM and Player solution were not HTML5 and would be covered in a separate interview.

Note to Patsu; Air 2.5 HTML5 does not support Video tag or audio tag it supports Object just as the Netflix tester stated. Not using Air 2.5 runtime (Neflix employee again) does not mean not using Access or the player in Air just that Air runtime bytecode is not being used, it's straight HTML for the UI.

 

[patsu]

There was low key news of a Sony MAG game that was on multiple platforms a few months ago. It was scheduled for about this time or early 2011, an official announcement for the game?

Where did you see this ? I'd be very happy of MAG goes cross platform so that I can play with more people.

They are using HTML5ish javascript but if they ported WEBKIT as they stated then they must acknowledge it in the Netflix application…right?

Yes, I think so. It should be in their 3.0 Client SDK, if not in the app itself.

 

[jonabbey]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/07/netflix-ported-webkit-to-the-ps3-to-enable-html5-goodies-a-dyna/

No comment on this guys? It's obviously not accurate as we've gone over this. They are using HTML5ish javascript but if they ported WEBKIT as they stated then they must acknowledge it in the Netflix application...right? At the end of the parent article from Netflix the interviewed mentioned that the DRM and Player solution were not HTML5 and would be covered in a separate interview.

I saw that at Engadget and immediately came over to Beyond3d here to apologize to you, Jeff.

It's not clear that they'd need to have Webkit credits in their app if this is true. I don't see webkit credits anywhere in the web browser on my android phone. .

 

[jeff_rigby]

Where did you see this ? I'd be very happy of MAG goes cross platform so that I can play with more people.

Yes, I think so. It should be in their 3.0 Client SDK, if not in the app itself.

It wasn't "Mag". It was news of a search for beta testers for a Sony MAG going PC - PS3 multi-platform. That's all I remember.

At E3 " . There was also some kind of mention of Steam itself coming to PS3, and he specifically called out Portal 2 as including Steam Cloud for online game save storage cross-platform, and some kind of auto-updating mechanism –

 

[jeff_rigby]

I saw that at Engadget and immediately came over to Beyond3d here to apologize to you, Jeff.

It's not clear that they'd need to have Webkit credits in their app if this is true. I don't see webkit credits anywhere in the web browser on my android phone. .

Apologize for what...everyone here has been arguing with style.

http://projectgus.com/2010/07/open-source-in-android-tablets/

With the exception of Barnes & Noble’s Nook e-reader, a device that isn’t even really a tablet, I couldn’t find a single EDIT: I found one tablet manufacturer who was complying with the minimum of their legal open source requirements under GNU GPL. Let alone supporting community development.

Next you will say that this is probably true for Netlfix also, they are not complying. None of the applications on the PS3 have GNU GPL disclosures. None would need it if they were all using Air. That said, Netflix does have the largest file size of any application on the PS3 at 21 megs so it's possible. Lovefilm having the smallest at 2 megs on the PSN store and 7 megs after first connect could not include UI, javascript engine, player and DRM tool. And Lovefilm uses the same DRm management firm Widevine and the UI looks very much like Netflix's.

News articles are just not using terms correctly and this is leading to confusion when we try to understand what's going on.

 

[patsu]

I wonder if they are using the same thing EA ported here: http://gpl.ea.com/skate3.html

If the schedules fit, they don't really have to re-port once EA did the work. They can contribute. The credits are there too. ^_^