HTML5 on consoles

[scooby_dooby]

Just thought of something. If HTML5 is used for some of the categories on the XMB then most of the work will have been done to allow Widgets on the XMB screen.

Is that next?

I'm still not sure what great features you're so looking forward to seeing with HTML5.

Canvas animations? Embedded audio? ... what else?

We've already established that <video /> is useless for DRM content. What you're left in HTML5 spec really is <audio /> and <canvas />... canvas is essentially a big bitmap surface you can draw into, and audio provides some very basic audio capabilities.

What about this is new or exciting? I guess I don't understand the anticipation here...

 

[jeff_rigby]

I'm still not sure what great features you're so looking forward to seeing with HTML5.

Canvas animations? Embedded audio? ... what else?

We've already established that <video /> is useless for DRM content. What you're left in HTML5 spec really is <audio /> and <canvas />... canvas is essentially a big bitmap surface you can draw into, and audio provides some very basic audio capabilities.

What about this is new or exciting? I guess I don't understand the anticipation here...

Webkit2 Javascript is usable outside the browser, Webkit2 is HTML5. There is no HTML4 Webkit2. So when I use the term HTML5 I mean webkit tools outside a browser, javascript, adaptive streaming H.264 Video and DRM. True there is no HTML5 standard for DRM and< video> tag is useless for media that needs protection. There is now a universal standard for DRM called Ultraviolet.

Widgets: Weather alerts, stock market alerts, email alerts, mini-games, Bookmarks and more.

It's not new, just something to add more features to the PS3. Allowing Widgets, be they Javascript, Android, Java or Lua will require support from the PS3 OS and changes to the XMB. A stage or Canvas has to be defined and windows support is necessary. Some of this is necessary for the Webkit port in any case.

Place a Lua Widget or one in any language on the PS3 XMB screen as a bookmark for a particular Home site. Clicking on it would, with support in the PS3 OS, load the Home client and pass parameters to launch a site like the Mall or a Game support site in Home.

 

[patsu]

I am interested in:
* A better web browser so that we can see (all) websites laid out properly.
* Tasks and REST API directly from XMB (a la Amazon S3 service, video upload, etc.).
* Inbox can support HTML pages (More interesting newsletter and messages)
* HTML links directly in XMB

Not too sure about widgets unless they can highlight PSN user activities to me. This will require some server data gathering, beyond HTML5 compliance.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Widgets: Weather alerts, stock market alerts, email alerts, mini-games, Bookmarks and more.

It's not new, just something to add more features to the PS3. Allowing Widgets, be they Javascript, Android, Java or Lua will require support from the PS3 OS and changes to the XMB. A stage or Canvas has to be defined and windows support is necessary. Some of this is necessary for the Webkit port in any case.

But these would be better suited to native applications, which will have much deeper functionality than Javascript + HTML5. What benefit, or reason, is there to do any of this in HTML? It just doesn't make sense... assuming their developers are already super proficient at coding native applications after 5 years, it's basically increasing costs to gain lesser functionality.

The only attraction this would have at all is as a marketing gimmick. For end users, we should be asking for native apps/widgets as those will be more feature rich and run better. No?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the idea is portability between devices, so the same applications from different providers can be run directly on PS3 without having to need a rewrite and staff to manage a PS3 version. This would also help sony with their Qriocity media gubbins, that they'd only need one engine that'd run on PS3, HTML-enabled TVs, mobiles, etc.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think the idea is portability between devices, so the same applications from different providers can be run directly on PS3 without having to need a rewrite and staff to manage a PS3 version. This would also help sony with their Qriocity media gubbins, that they'd only need one engine that'd run on PS3, HTML-enabled TVs, mobiles, etc.

Yes, a better explanation than I provided. Simple multi-platform quick and easy to write but providing needed features. Not everything requires native code.

 

[patsu]

Not just multi-platform benefits, a lot of developers know JavaScript and HTML intimately. They can code stuff up quickly (e.g., NetFlix experimenting with different UI at the same time easily).

Useful Internet services and info are available as REST API. They are easy to use via JavaScript. So we have a good mix of talent pool and services/info.

 

[patsu]

Update On The PlayStation App For iPhone And Android Devices:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/12/28/update-on-the-playstation-app-for-iphone-and-android-devices/

Several weeks ago the European PlayStation blog revealed an upcoming app for iPhone (OS4) and Android (1.6+) devices. The masses rejoiced. Things got even sweeter when PlayStation Portal Manager Emmanuel Orssaud said that the app should be available around Christmas on the EU blog. That didn’t exactly happen, but I imagine the app will be available any day now.

The announcement of the PlayStation app has met a mixed reaction, but mostly positive. It’s not heavy on features, but does show potential. Do not expect to play games through the PlayStation app. The next major update will most likely have access to streaming (on-demand) video and music services, such as Qriocity.

...

Strangely enough, SCEE also said that the first version would only be available in UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and The Netherlands. This left many countries in Europe out of reach for the time being. Gamers began commenting in the official announcement about this and Manager Emmanuel Orssaud replied with word that version 1.1, confirmed for January, would add more territories. He actually confirmed v1.1 would be available for Russia, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Portugal, Norway, and Poland. We fully believe it will be available for the USA with v1.1 if all of those other countries will get it.

Perhaps v1.1′s availability will coincide with the long-awaited PlayStation phone announcement. I don’t think that’s going to happen at CES, though.

(Screens inside link)

 

[scooby_dooby]

I think the idea is portability between devices, so the same applications from different providers can be run directly on PS3 without having to need a rewrite and staff to manage a PS3 version. This would also help sony with their Qriocity media gubbins, that they'd only need one engine that'd run on PS3, HTML-enabled TVs, mobiles, etc.

It does make sense from that perspective, and I guess it would lend itself to rapid deployment/testing. Not that you would want to actually re-use one UI across these hugely varying form factors, but in terms of developing platform agnostic apps it makes sense. As an end user, I still don't really see the appeal, but hey...

Functionality wise, sort of forces us to accept the lowest common denominator, which is not the greatest...but maybe that will be offset with a higher level of polish.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It does make sense from that perspective, and I guess it would lend itself to rapid deployment/testing. Not that you would want to actually re-use one UI across these hugely varying form factors, but in terms of developing platform agnostic apps it makes sense. As an end user, I still don't really see the appeal, but hey...

Neither do I, and like you I was looking at native apps as being the sensible choice for the best console experience, but the companies don't particular care for that and this'll be functional.

Functionality wise, sort of forces us to accept the lowest common denominator, which is not the greatest...but maybe that will be offset with a higher level of polish.

Given the hgih level of basic performance across devices, I'm not sure that's an issue. What could a PS3 do regards an interface that a mobile couldn't? At the end of the day you just have images and menus and buttons linking to data comms (Facebook et al) and video/audio streams. Any games on this system would be very low grade compared to what the consoles can do, but for lots of mobile titles that are just 2D, that's not a problem, and you have the proper download title services for native games.

All in all I think it makes sense to pursue this, but I'm not sure Sony will have an open platform on PS3 where users can use the same content they've bought from non-Sony sources. That way lies revenue loss.

Incidentally, is there a means or understanding across firms that supports the device manufacturer whenever content is sold? eg. let's say there's a LoveFilm/Netflix app that runs in HTML5 on PC, mobile and console. When you view a movie on any device, the film company gets the money and the device company gets nothing. Now with services like Live! and PSN, they can charge a little distribution fee and make something from the film viewing. If they don't get that money, the box loses a lot of profitability. I mean, that was the whole point of these consoles, to command the media gateway and get a slice of every media sale! Open platforms mean the media companies get all the money and the device companies see none of that, which is reason for a device company to avoid supporting rival platforms if they ahve their own media portal. So how exactly does a brave new world of open standards work in the typically lossy-hardware space of the consoles?

 

[jeff_rigby]

All in all I think it makes sense to pursue this, but I'm not sure Sony will have an open platform on PS3 where users can use the same content they've bought from non-Sony sources. That way lies revenue loss.

We still haven't had any third party apps for sale to know how Sony will handle that but we have had multiple competing Media sources. Sony may be receiving a percentage of the revenue generated through the PSN.

That all have to be in a PS3 shell might be necessary in the future and as you speculated there might be a counting or reporting function inside the PS3 shell.

The Adobe code modified (my guess) cell optimized H.264 codec player in the PS3 besides having hooks for a DRM tool might also have a reporting to Sony feature built in for auditing or it may only work properly with Sony control. There are multiple hooks for this as part of DRM (Adobe DRM explanation). DRM is also a part of a downloaded file. It may have an expiration date or may have watermarks or may have a flag that other DRM certified devices would use to refuse to copy media. This has been in the PS3 for months now.

Netflix is getting special treatment and placement on the XMB at least in respect to Vudu. They may pay a higher percentage or strike a tougher deal.

As has been shown in the past with other discussions, the answer lies somewhere between your and my view on this. Both of us being correct on at least some of the issues involved.

 

[patsu]

Having an HTML5 interface does not mean we will be forced to use the lower common denominator. It is very easy to serve different UI based on device templates over HTTP. If you look at Apple's HTML5 demoes in WWDC, you'll find very sexy ideas.

HTML5's main value add is local storage/cache and more powerful rendering subsystem. I find game-like UI (e.g., Life with Playstation) too confusing. But the latter uses native code, which is very quick.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Webkit is a multi-threaded (Apple called it webkit 2) kit of software tools that can be parallel processed by multiple CPUs to increase Web page write speeds. The tools out of a webkit can also be used by other applications. Flash as of 10.1 is also multi-threaded, the tools in it could be used by other applications also.

So my speculation that Air 2.5 for TV is in the PS3 is most likely wrong as the tools in Flash 10.1 could be used instead.

I would guess that Adobe Flash 10.1 is also at least partially active and in the PS3 now. There will be no GNU license declaration by Sony for this.

In the letter from the Sony software engineer Dec 14th, he said the following:

Sorry, I have no idea what Air 2.5 for TV is.

Yes, we have a port of webkit that runs on PS3. It is actually a generic Cairo/POSIX port. You can get what we have for release here: http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/ It is now just javascript core, but we will be releasing updates with more support in the coming months.

"Sorry, I have no idea what Air 2.5 for TV is."

I first keyed on his not knowing what Adobe Air is, thinking it a deliberate mis-direction. In light of Flash 10.1 routines having the same ability to be used like Webket routines It probably confirms a partial or full port of Flash 10.1 is also in the PS3 now and being used for at least the Access DRM tool.


"we will be releasing updates with more support in the coming months"

Reading that statement carefully could mean:

1) Releasing multiple updates with more tools out of webkit to support new features in the PS3 in the coming months.
2) and a webkit browser is coming

Does Air 2.5 have any feature not seen in Flash 10.1? For instance, the ability to run signed Flash applications outside the browser. IF this is the case then Shifty might be right and Sony has no plans to allow cross platform Air applications. Considering Samsung is supporting Air applications on their 2010 Blu-ray players and TVs over 40 inch and other manufacturers may follow Samsung's lead, Sony not doing so also might be at a disadvantage.

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://cwconnect.computerworld.com.br/hottrendsintechnologyupdates/category/laptops/

Former Sony and Atari executive Phil Harrison (Part of the Sony "Home" development team) says gaming’s future will be dominated by high-quality games delivered through web browsers and open platforms, rather than dedicated game consoles.

Speaking at the Italian Videogame Developers Conference in Rome, the London Venture Partners founder said he thinks we’ll see games the quality of Modern Warfare 2 running in web browsers and other non-traditional platforms in the near future. “I think in the next five-to-ten years we will easily get this level of game inside a web browser, on your mobile platform, on your iPad, and we will be able to deliver that level of immersion to any kind of screen,” Harrison said, as reported by Develop.

The companies that succeed in that industry of the future, he said, will be the ones that can “satisfy the needs of the core gamer” on an open, browser-based platform like Facebook, rather than closed platforms like the iPhone and major consoles. “The console companies, I believe, will want to figure out how to become more open and to deliver more content without restriction to more people, to stimulate creativity,” he said. “I think we have probably seen the last of the traditional game console companies already in the market. I don’t think we’re going to see a new entrant who is going to be able to compete at the level that Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo have established,” he added.

1) Home is a cross platform application written in Lua that runs on a client engine in the PS3.
2) We are getting a WebGL webkit HTML5 browser that will be able to play WebGL games.

Home is potentially the ultimate social networking and game launch site. Sony apparently has a long range plan and is on track. Home could be converted to run on a WebGL browser or client engines could be written for other platforms.

Gabe Newell of Portal 2 gave a keynote speech praising Sony for it's open to the Web policy's and criticized Microsoft for their closed to the Web Xbox policies. At the same time he mentioned Portal 2 is coming to the PS3.

 

[Demirug]

There is still a far way to go to get something like Modern Warfare 2 running as pure HTML application. In the moment you are cutting edge if you make use of the 2D canvas element. Even for this you need a fallback as IE will not support it for 9 which is still in beta. They don’t talk about supporting 3D so we could not expect it before the next bigger iteration. That shows already one of the big problems that browser game developers face today. There are many nice specifications but as long as the majority of players don’t have browser that implements them they are useless.

Beside of this to getting something like Modern Warfare 2 working in a browser we need a bunch of additional feature specifications. This starts with simple things like better access to input devices (keyboard, mouse, gamepads, …). But the more complicated part would be a massive rework how scripting works in a browser. JavaScript was never meant to write complex games with it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There is still a far way to go to get something like Modern Warfare 2 running as pure HTML application. In the moment you are cutting edge if you make use of the 2D canvas element. Even for this you need a fallback as IE will not support it for 9 which is still in beta. They don’t talk about supporting 3D so we could not expect it before the next bigger iteration. That shows already one of the big problems that browser game developers face today. There are many nice specifications but as long as the majority of players don’t have browser that implements them they are useless.

Beside of this to getting something like Modern Warfare 2 working in a browser we need a bunch of additional feature specifications. This starts with simple things like better access to input devices (keyboard, mouse, gamepads, …). But the more complicated part would be a massive rework how scripting works in a browser. JavaScript was never meant to write complex games with it.

I edited out:

The last few years have seen a proliferation of game engines designed to work within web browsers, including de facto web standard Flash but also engines like Unity 3D, Microsoft’s Silverlight and Monumental’s Prime MMO engine.

Which both supports your statements and goes to show that development on web games are on-going. Adobe has shown a demo of a Flash 3D engine that seems to provide near Burnout Paradise graphics. The equipment it's running on was not mentioned.

The point was everything recently seems to be cross platform; from Media to games. The choice to have Home as a cross platform rather than native application given it's performance hit in doing so may be an indicator of a long range multi-platform policy on Sony's part. If this is true, we may see Home on other platforms in 2011.

The way Home is using cache memory seems to indicate restrictions that only make sense if the hard drive were being treated like SD memory as in Cell phone or ipod.

 

[Demirug]

Which both supports your statements and goes to show that development on web games are on-going.

I am working in this business therefore I might be somewhat overcritical when it comes to the roadmaps in this area.

Adobe has shown a demo of a Flash 3D engine that seems to provide near Burnout Paradise graphics. The equipment it's running on was not mentioned.

I know that Flash 3D extension but I could not go into details (still under NDA, sorry). There will although hardware 3D support in the next version of Silverlight.

But this doesn’t change the problem. If you make use of this you don’t develop for the browser platform you develop for Flash, Silverlight or any other plugin. This way you limit your customer base to systems that support this plugin. We all know the problem that this has caused when it comes to Flash and iOS.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Widgets; a small app that requires HTML5 - Webkit (runs outside browser) and is on the home page.

http://forums.badadev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92

- widget -> small app on a customizable home screen (used by Symbian 5th, Android)

- server-based web app -> app running from a server using the phone's browser engine (webkit), the app code (JS/HTML/CSS) is managed on the server (ex: Google apps). That's the "Cloud", "SaaS" model.
This kind of app cannot use phone's API (until HTML5 arrives...), and need a network connection.

- phone-based web app -> app running localy on the phone and rendered in the phone's browser engine (webkit). The application code (JS/HTML/CSS) is downloaded on the phone at installation and runs localy. This kind of app can use the phone API (through a JS wrapper framework) and don't necessary need a network connection. Exemple: Nokia WTK framework.

A Widget can be a phone-based web app (Nokia WTK widgets) or a native app (Android widgets).

Phone-based web app is seen as the future by some people as they allow advanced app (access to phone's API) to be developed by web people (HTML/JS/CSS developers). Which means easy, fast and cheap to develop as well as cross platform (as webkit becomes a standard).

Widgets are one of the features that may be available after a webkit is ported to a platform.

I believe the PS3 is considered a "mobile" device, (Open GL ES and memory) for instance the Netfront browser is a mobile browser. So many of the "Phone" descriptions and features fit the PS3 more than a desktop computer. In a Mobile device, services are mainly provided by cloud servers which eliminates piracy concerns and locks the user to the service provider.

Starting to see a pattern here.......

 

[jeff_rigby]

I am working in this business therefore I might be somewhat overcritical when it comes to the roadmaps in this area.

I know that Flash 3D extension but I could not go into details (still under NDA, sorry). There will although hardware 3D support in the next version of Silverlight.
.

I've read unofficial reports that Silverlight version 5 will support HTML5 and your news that there will be hardware 3D support fits with Phil Harrison comments.

I've speculated that the "5" showing up in HTML5, Air 2.5, Flash Media server 3.5, Silverlight version 5, PS3 Firmware update 3.5 (which we now know has a HTML5 javascript engine in it) and PSP 6.35 which probably also now supports Flash Media server 3.5 streams (HTML5 and at least a partial Flash 10.1 Access for DRM). Can you confirm some of the speculation?

 

[Demirug]

I am the wrong person for this. We are doing desktop browser strategy games: www.lordofultima.com

As we try to stay away from additional plugins we have only very limited access to prerelease information from companies in this area. 3D is an exception here as we need to evaluate what we would do there.

The same is true for console companies as the somewhat limited user base on these platforms make them somewhat uninteresting for our kind of business. Strategy games doesn’t work that well there.