HTML5 on consoles

[androvsky]

It's not unheard of for commercial users to go directly to the copyright holder of open source code and pay for a commercial license. Usually, this is done mainly for closed platforms where making the port-specific code public would be a major problem (game consoles, military applications, etc). In those cases, the credit requirements are often waived. iirc, the reieserfs utilities used to advertise for commercial licenses even in the open-source version.

 

[patsu]

If multiple organizations are working on WebKit for PS3, I wouldn't be surprised there is some sort of sharing mechanism in Sony's internal developer site.

That Engadget article seems to imply NetFlix worked on the port, instead of paying the "WebKit team" to do it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

If multiple organizations are working on WebKit for PS3, I wouldn't be surprised there is some sort of sharing mechanism in Sony's internal developer site.

That Engadget article seems to imply NetFlix worked on the port, instead of paying the "WebKit team" to do it.

Guys, this is an interesting discussion and possible considering the size of the Netflix application but what about Lovefilm which uses the same DRM manager and whose application size is 2 megs on the PSN store and 7 megs after first connect and looks apx the same. What engine is it using? Did they also write their own? Did Vudu write their own? Did Hulu write their own?

 

[patsu]

Yes, which is back to where we started our discussion.

Someone should offer a WebKit browser app on PSN Store.

EDIT:

It wasn't "Mag". It was news of a search for beta testers for a Sony MAG going PC - PS3 multi-platform. That's all I remember.

At E3 " . There was also some kind of mention of Steam itself coming to PS3, and he specifically called out Portal 2 as including Steam Cloud for online game save storage cross-platform, and some kind of auto-updating mechanism –

Yes, that's the game. Do you have the link ? I am interested to find out more.

 

[deathindustrial]

That Engadget article seems to imply NetFlix worked on the port, instead of paying the "WebKit team" to do it.

We do not have to take Engadget's word for it:

http://techblog.netflix.com/2010/12/why-we-choose-html5-for-user.html

Our PS3 UI was written entirely using HTML5, on a custom build of Webkit ported to the PS3 by our crack team of engineers.

Cheers

 

[jeff_rigby]

We do not have to take Engadget's word for it:

http://techblog.netflix.com/2010/12/why-we-choose-html5-for-user.html
Cheers

This is John Ciancutti, VP of Personalization Technology here at Netflix. As you know, last month we released a completely new user experience for Netflix on the PS3. I thought I would tell you about the technology choices we’re using for user experiences on Netflix Ready Devices.

Our PS3 UI was written entirely using HTML5, on a custom build of Webkit ported to the PS3 by our crack team of engineers.

The javascript HTML5 UI was written then tested on a PS3 which had a HTML5 webkit ported to it for testing purposes. Air 2.5 uses a port of WEBKIT including the exact same javascript engine HTML5 engine and is supposed to behave exactly like webkit. OF course they had to have a test bed for the UI as Air 2.5, the first version of Air to support HTML5, had not been released. They probably had a copy of the pre release Air about 2 months or so before it was released.

Update: Thank you for the comments and questions. I want to clarify for you that this post is focused on the user experience we build for devices, but not on video playback and DRM. Our video playback technology is fodder for an upcoming post; unfortunately we can’t use just HTML5 yet for video streaming on Netflix Ready Devices. We will fill you guys in on what we are doing, though, and where we hope to take that side of our technology stack in a future post. Thanks!

Netflix ready devices contain the tools to support the Netflix app. I.E. A HTML5 javascript engine, DRM tool and player.

Netflix obviously wanted/needed a jump on the competition to have their application on the PS3 first. Walmart purchased Vudu which already had Vudu running on Air 2.0 (HTML4 javascript) and in new browsers (HTML5 javascript). All probably got a pre- release version for testing.

If you notice with 3.55 Netflix has been moved under the PSN store icon and Vudu is above the store icon (less visible). There must be some special relationship between Netflix and Sony and it might have extended to support for the webkit port used by Netfix for testing their code.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Yes, which is back to where we started our discussion.

.

Several argument lines have been closed off. There is only that the support for these apps is in the PS3 (read my post about Widevine (new information)). What is providing that support is the only question.

Needed is:

1) a WEBKIT HTML5 javascript engine (confirmed as Netflix ported that for testing purposes)

2) a DRM tool like Marlin or Access that must interface with the javascript engine

3) a player that must interface with the DRM tool

Features also needed:

A) It must support Flash 3.5 streams
B) It must support Ultraviolet DRM

Air 2.5 is free and would supply the above and it has the added benefit that it's a package and all parts already talk to each other properly. The industry already uses Air and it is on more platforms. To say on more platforms is redundant as any other solution would only be on the PS3.

Since we now can reliably assume javascript has to be supplied by Webkit ported code, GNU GPL applies here and no disclosure is listed for Sony and we know in the past that Sony does disclose so ....Air 2.5.

We also now know that it's apparently easy to port Software to the PS3 as two webkit have been confirmed as being ported to the PS3 (the EA Skate and Netflix Webkit), Air 2.5 would make three. We should have known that as Linux and all software running under Linux on the PS3 was compiled to native language.

Side note: There is apparently a back door into VUDU. I was playing with VUDU trying to find a disclosure for GNU software and pressed triangle as Vudu was booting and got a screen that said "UNLOCKED" in yellow and below it information on runtime version, UI version etc. It would accept no other commands from the controller but might accept commands from keyboard combinations.

The Runtime and UI versions numbers caused me to think about what I already knew. IF Air is being used, the Application file for Vudu on the PS3 would consist of the following:

Given an Air runtime engine in the PS3

1) A PS3 OS shell
2) Air runtime bytecode, needs to be digitally signed
3) Javascript UI code
4) Images used by javascript to display logos.

And in the PS3 sandbox storage for the application.

Notice RUNTIME version. Also, this means that not all applications need to be HTML5 only. They are not limited and can have advanced Flash support in addition to HTML5. So animations are possible but unlikely as least common denominator hardware has to be supported.

Vudu and Divx TV are typically found on High end hardware so we are seeing slightly more impressive UIs from Vudu. Still no applications under VUDU, either this is Walmart policy or Sony's. Or possibly it's coming and Air is not fully integrated at this time. Perhaps OpenGL support is not finished as has been reported on other platforms. Video Codec would be hardware supported (in this case Sony supplied codec) but HTML text is run through the CPU rather than javascript direct to Open GL calls.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Otay… this is going to make jeff jump and clap his hands. ^_^

I bumped into an ex-NetFlix guy about 15 minutes ago. He developed the test framework for NetFlix's 3.0 SDK a few months ago. He had 2 PS3es in his cube/room for testing purposes. Here's what he said to me:

1. Yes, there is a HTML5-ish interface for PS3 (and other devices).

2. If using NetFlix 3.0 SDK, the NetFlix app runs on JavaScript and (DOM ?) Edit No DOM events. PS3 does support NetFlix 3.0 client. He was testing it.

3. Instead of using <VIDEO> tag, NetFlix uses <OBJECT> tag. But the other interfaces follow HTML5 closely. SQLite database supported by Air. There are differences between Webkit and Air in that Air chose to support and follows closely the HTML5 standard with their own code like SQLite.

I fired up the PS3 NetFlix client to show him. He couldn't tell me if this version uses NetFlix 3.0 SDK or not (Yes, NetFlix wrote the client UI).

Finally he mentioned that Broadcom also ported a limited subset of WebKit to their chip(s). NetFlix will abandon Flash and Silverlight (if not already done so) Only for the UI as Widevine supports the Silverlight DRM tool and can stream video in a format that can be used on Xbox. Widevine and Air can support multiple video format streams and the UI does not have to be Air runtime (Flash). support Apple may have a different arrangement. He wasn't sure about the details.

EDIT: If the info is accurate... I think in practical terms, we can only conclude that PS3 has a standalone JavaScript run-time. The design goal (for NetFlix) is to use HTML5. So this JavaScript engine may have basic HTML5 support. Advanced features may be missing (e.g., no <Video> tag).

Note to Patsu; Air 2.5 HTML5 does not support <Video> tag or <audio> tag it supports Object just as the Netflix tester stated (above). Not using Air 2.5 runtime (Neflix employee again) does not mean not using Access or the player in Air just that Air runtime bytecode is not being used, it's straight HTML for the UI. A ported Webkit could/would use <video>tag. Adobe chose to not do so for memory /size reasons.

Using HTML5ish UIs to support multiple platforms and Using Widevine to manage multiple format video streams and DRM on multiple Platforms using an Ultraviolet model. Widevine uses the tools built into the platform to manage DRM. Crossplatform requires either writing ALL tools for ALL platforms (60 if you include various OS) or relying on something like AIR to provide the tools that are used.

Netflix multi-device UIs. Pictures of multiple Netfix interfaces on multiple platforms all using HTML5ish UIs. The company website is showing examples of UIs, the company writes apps using Adobe Air. See the top menu that shows Air iPad Air iPhone.

http://www.merhl.com/?p=446

If you look at all of them side by side you can tell they all are Netflix applications and the brand is present, but you will also notice that they are all slightly different. They are attempting to take advantage of the native device. Take the Wii and the XBox for example. They both allow you to browse for movie titles but in slightly different ways based on the UI of the device and in this case the use of input.

But, the good news is that they only have to develop the UI. Everything else would be handled by their backend (streaming, queues). I’m sure the decoding is already offered through an API from the device manufacturer, so in essence, it is just building the interface, and making appropriate backend calls.

In other words passing off to Widevine for streaming the movie and Widevine uses the tools in the platform..

 

[jeff_rigby]

Angry Birds on the AppStore is one of the most successful games in history, The company has decided to take its bird-slinging game mechanics to all new platform: the consoles we love – Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360.

http://techgreatest.com/2010/11/24/angry-birds-coming-soon-to-wii-ps3-and-xbox-360/

Rovio, the company behind Angry Birds, says that they are working on a version of the game for the Xbox 360, Wii and PlayStation 3. CEO Peter Vesterbacka also told the BBC that the games would launch next year. More info to come. Stay tuned!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMltvlqEM54&feature=player_embedded#at=90

Angry birds could be announced as coming to the PS3 first on the 12th. First because it will be running as an Android App rather than a Mini?????? Very Possible if Sony has already ported Android for testing, it can just be a engine not the OS version....It could even come as an Air application.

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1501647#post1501647

Patent published yesterday but filed in 7/2010 is about distributed parallel processing using the Cell in multiple Sony products. Mentioned is distributed processing for Game systems over a network. A 4 SPU cell being the basic building block of the distributed system and that cell can be found in TVs and other products like PDAs.

Edit: Shifty, this is perhaps the answer to how Sony will get you to buy their PDA - Android - Tablet rather than a cheap clone. In the short term I expect the PS3 will be used for a server and in the long term Sony will have a Network server with a 4 element cell for media as well as storage. It being always on would be available to add CPU processing to all other Sony "Cell" peripherals.

This takes the "Digital ecosystem" a massive step beyond that envisioned by Apple and others....A standard for distributed parallel processing could also include a standard for media sharing over the gigabit network and all Sony media players (TVs included) could play media from all other Sony products over the network. This is a logical extension and the HDMI to Hdmi HDBaseT over a network is now obsolete at least for Sony products.

A new rumor has the PSP2 with Half the power and same graphics as a PS3. This I would speculate means that a 4 element Cell is in the PSP2 and Android is coming to the PS3.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The Cell ecosystem was being talked about before Cell ever saw the light of day. Its scalability was a big factor, and we had plenty of discussion on this board whether a Cell in a TV was a good idea or if it was more economical to use specific parts. Sony were promising Cell TVs year after year. The fact they are finally getting around to it doesn't really point to anything IMO, certainly not regards the software systems they'll use to integrate across devices.

I agree Android seems a good idea, especially looking forwards to PS4, as I've mentioned in other threads. The rumour of PSP2 having half the processing power of PS3 is utter nonsense though. That'd requre a 4 SPU Cell running at 3.2 GHz in a handheld! Unless PSP2 is something of my Vision Of The Future with scalable performance, running very light in handheld form and full power plugged in (which even then, there wouldn't be a cooling system capable of accomodating that power in the PSP's form factor), there's is no way at all PSP2 has that power. Could it have a Cell derivative? I was a major proponent of a single hardware structure across devices, so I'd hope so, but it does look unlikely. Of course, if Sony devices are Android based, you actually don't need the same hardware, so none of this helps your argument at all.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The Cell ecosystem was being talked about before Cell ever saw the light of day. Its scalability was a big factor, and we had plenty of discussion on this board whether a Cell in a TV was a good idea or if it was more economical to use specific parts. Sony were promising Cell TVs year after year. The fact they are finally getting around to it doesn't really point to anything IMO, certainly not regards the software systems they'll use to integrate across devices.

I agree Android seems a good idea, especially looking forwards to PS4, as I've mentioned in other threads. The rumour of PSP2 having half the processing power of PS3 is utter nonsense though. That'd requre a 4 SPU Cell running at 3.2 GHz in a handheld! Unless PSP2 is something of my Vision Of The Future with scalable performance, running very light in handheld form and full power plugged in (which even then, there wouldn't be a cooling system capable of accomodating that power in the PSP's form factor), there's is no way at all PSP2 has that power. Could it have a Cell derivative? I was a major proponent of a single hardware structure across devices, so I'd hope so, but it does look unlikely. Of course, if Sony devices are Android based, you actually don't need the same hardware, so none of this helps your argument at all.

I already understood the above and you are correct power/battery life and heat would require the cell to run at something under 2 Ghz. The Cell SPUs being scalable would use less power than most other CPUs when elements are not being used. So 1/4 or probably less performance.

We have to understand that this information is being filtered through the minds of News types that may not have an understanding of the limitations. So I would guess the statement of half the power means a 4 element cell not that it has half the power. This is the only interpretation that makes sense. Edit, I expect an aluminum case that doubles as a heat sink. Edit: there is also the possibility that a new chipset that is extremely efficient may be used and that changes all assumptions.

I can get into the discussion as to why Android would be used but think about it in terms of Popularity (Android is popular) - selling product but having features not available to other non-Sony products. As far as all having the CELL, again it will add distributed processing and a Digital ecosystem no one else has. Edit: Within range of a home network with other Sony Cell products connected, the performance of the PSP2 would increase without additional battery drain or heat.

I do not think Android is a good idea for anything except a UI and fluff applications. Given distributed processing the ability of the entire system increases to the point that the hit in performance in a cross platform application that has to be run under an engine is not as critical.

I also see this as putting off a PS4 release. Sony will be the only Console maker that can do this as the PS3 performance will increase with the number of new Sony products connected to your home network. If this was planned and the gigabit and Cell as well as the talk among the Sony engineers you mention in another thread seem to indicate this is possible then their long range plan could justify the "lossy" nature of their sales and the difficulty they had in porting and writing software for the PS3 Cell.

It should also change how you think of Sony and support that they ported Air as would be logical and reasonable to their short term "ultraviloet", cloud computing and digital ecosystem plans.

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1931985/ps3-streamed-commercial-tv-content

PS3 gets streamed commercial TV content

Sony's games consoles will start showing ITV and Channel 4 shows such as Coronation Street and The Inbetweeners in a move that is being heralded as another another sign of the convergence between traditional media and the Internet.

The ITV Player and Channel 4's on demand (4oD) service will be available to PS3 users who have broadband. The BBC's Iplayer service has been available on the PS3 console since last year.

Sarah Rose, director of commercial business development at Channel 4, told The Guardian that this is the first time the broadcaster has found that a games console maker is ready to be a partner.

The Nintendo Wii, which has only the BBC Iplayer signed up, is unlikely to be a partner any time soon because it can't carry adverts, Rose said.

BBC and Channel 4 require Flash Media server 3.5 support which includes Commercials and they apparently require detection of commercial blocking. Apparently the Wii does not have this ability so Air 2.5 is not on the Wii it's probably a Flash lite product. That the PS3 was singled out for this again supports Air 2.5 is in the PS3. The Xbox can support this with Silverlight but Xbox charging for on-line conflicts with the BBC charter.

In the PS3 case Flash Media server 3.5 is a HTTP H.264 with HTML5ish User Interface and Ultraviolet DRM model. Both Flash Media server 3.5 and Air 2.5 support multiple media format streams.

 

[Arwin]

What would you make of this one then?

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010/12/13/a-new-website-launches-on-ps3/

Quite a big investment if you're about to switch ... (note my bitching in the comments on page 3)

 

[jeff_rigby]

What would you make of this one then?

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010/12/13/a-new-website-launches-on-ps3/

Quite a big investment if you're about to switch ... (note my bitching in the comments on page 3)

Yes a 720P and 480P should have been supported with the 480P being the existing site. That takes work to rearrange artwork and change font size. Eventually a set of standards will evolve. They are also going to have to support PSP, PSP2, Cell PSP, tablet etc. All should be detected and supported.

4K by 2K is coming soon and support for that should be in any new Web Browser. I believe the PS3 can support that resolution.

Sony, I assume, used the same reasoning for not supporting DLP checkerboard 3-D....standards.

I did pay extra for 1080P two years ago because it was better for Text displays but the same reasoning applied to 3-D and the DLP I purchased. Win one loose one.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

4K by 2K is coming soon and support for that should be in any new Web Browser.

Seriously?! Most 1080p sets are viewed at a distance where you're not going to notice higher resolution. I seriously doubt 4k sets will be in any significant number of homes for any reasonable time period.

I complained somewhat in the comments too, because I have my PS3 set to 720p output to ensure best performance from some games. My displays are 1366x768 and 1680x1020, so 1080p wouldn't look any better anyway. And indeed, the theory behind the choice is that 720p TVs accept a 1080p signal and downscale anyway, so no need to render lower, but that misses my situation. If Sony had a prefered resolution option for each title, I could leave the PS3 set to highest available res on display (1080p) and set those games I want to 720p.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Seriously?! Most 1080p sets are viewed at a distance where you're not going to notice higher resolution. I seriously doubt 4k sets will be in any significant number of homes for any reasonable time period.

Agreed but that standard is part of HDMI 1.4 and is mentioned as supported in just about every HDMI accessory like HDBaseT.

For DLP TVs it's already in commercial products. With very little change beyond a TI mirror array that supports 1080P natively instead of 720P with the vibrating mirror that doubles the number of pixels, that new 1080P chip could support both 4K by 2k and 1080P 3-D. It should also be possible to have DLP 3-D using the same scheme used in theaters with glasses being just polarized lenses 90 degrees out of phase. The combination of the above should have DLP being popular again.

The above is coming, I believe for MGA DLP soon and when prices for other 1080P 3-Ds drop a new resolution to bump up high end TV prices will emerge.

The optics would be a challenge for DLP 4K by 2k but high end MGA DLP TVs already use laser LEDs for a light source which should simplify 4K by 2K optics.

MGA DLP is already at the "we need to increase the features to justify a higher price." price point as 60 inch 1080P DLP 3-D (half res) TVs were selling for $699 black Friday.

With the above comes a need for Media source products like blu-ray 4K by 2K which is doable with faster blu-ray drives and minor circuitry changes.

 

[makattack]

If multiple organizations are working on WebKit for PS3, I wouldn't be surprised there is some sort of sharing mechanism in Sony's internal developer site.

That Engadget article seems to imply NetFlix worked on the port, instead of paying the "WebKit team" to do it.

I don't know who did the initial ports, but Sony's opensource site does include some PS3 headers and exports downloads for their webkit library:

http://products.sel.sony.com/opensource/source_webkit.shtml

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't know who did the initial ports, but Sony's opensource site does include some PS3 headers and exports downloads for their webkit library:

http://products.sel.sony.com/opensource/source_webkit.shtml

Interesting and the last update to the site was 11/12/2010

Open Source 2010
webkit-10.10.01-14d0bd2

ps3-compat-headers-10.10.01-14fd0bd2.tar.gz

ps3-exports-10.10.01-14fd0bd2.tar.gz

webkit-10.10.01-14fd0bd2.tar.gz

webkit-patches-10.10.01-14fd0bd2.tar.gz

webkit-10.10.01-14fd0bd2-SHA1SUM


This is not Netflix and would not be listed if it was Netflix. That Sony is listing webkit might mean we are getting a webkit browser in the PS3 either a Google Chrome/Google TV webkit browser or straight Webkit.

Does this mean that Webkit code is in the PS3 now? Wouldn't it be listed after the fact not before?

 

[makattack]

Does this mean that Webkit code is in the PS3 now? Wouldn't it be listed after the fact not before?

Not necessarily... a lot of stuff is released for development purposed before any consumer targets get them... not always the case... but can't really infer that the consumer versions have specific development libraries.

For example, I can download and run the Android Gingerbread release on my PC, but I can't install it on my TMobile G2.... yet.... because I don't have it rooted, and couldn't imagine doing a port to it by myself.