HTML5 on consoles

[jeff_rigby]

Actually, that's precisely why I *don't* ever, nor plan to browse websites on my TV. It's too heavy to lug around my flat.

Whenever I'm watching a program on the TV, and wish to look up something on the internet, I just reach for the phone, laptop, etc... Just too clunky to slowly input search strings, etc with TV/AV or game console controllers -- even those with mini keyboards.

Many feel that way about PC & keyboards so we have favorites, bookmarks and most visited that we can click with a mouse. For those I expect a TV centric browser will have a "most visited" like the Chrome browser has. With "Move" as an airmouse on the PS3, the sixaxis controller or voice commands it will also work for a web browser on their TV.

 

[patsu]

Large screen TV is good as a multi-user "terminal". Crowding around a laptop or phone may be less comfortable sometimes. e.g., In my experience, family video conferencing is more interesting on a TV because you can see the entire family, full body view.

OTOH, something like an iPad provides a private viewing experience. e.g., my friend and wife have an iPad each to watch different channels on the bed side by side. ^_^

 

[one]

As to no indication of Chrome or Webkit in the PS3, best-easiest to support speculation is that the ipTV applications now being released are using Air not a partial webkit as I had earlier speculated before the Air 2.5 announcement.

Have you read my post or Npl's post?

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1477787#post1477787
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1478660#post1478660

Basically if you use LGPL-ed code such as WebKit (specifically its layout engine and JavaScript engine) in your product you have to add the credit somewhere in the product documents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

It's also mandated that the source code of LGPL-ed parts must be provided by the user.
http://www.sony.net/Products/Linux/common/search.html

What you should do to support your theory is not speculation but find the credit for WebKit usage. Good luck.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Have you read my post or Npl's post?

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1477787#post1477787
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1478660#post1478660

Basically if you use LGPL-ed code such as WebKit (specifically its layout engine and JavaScript engine) in your product you have to add the credit somewhere in the product documents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

It's also mandated that the source code of LGPL-ed parts must be provided by the user.
http://www.sony.net/Products/Linux/common/search.html

What you should do to support your theory is not speculation but find the credit for WebKit usage. Good luck.

Would this apply to products that use the Air runtime? Air uses the Squirrel Fish Extreme javascript engine from webkit. I just looked at the Google Chrome About and it does list all source code sources. Would this apply to a partially completed webkit that has no ability to display about it'self yet?

 

[patsu]

I think the answer is yes. They must show WebKit credits. Anyway, if Sony were to implement WebKit on PS3, I'm sure they'll publicize it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think the answer is yes. They must show WebKit credits. Anyway, if Sony were to implement WebKit on PS3, I'm sure they'll publicize it.

For the other question about Air, do applications that use Air which has GNU licensed code have to list the code used?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License

The LGPL places copyleft restrictions on the program itself but does not apply these restrictions to other software that merely links with the program.

The other side of this if the answer to the above is NO, if Air is not being used then these IPTV web applications must be using some javascript engine GNU licensed code or Flash player clone or at least a H.264 codec. Do any of these PS3 applications list Licensed code? It has to either be in the PS3 and Sony must list it or part of the downloads for these IPTV applications and they must list them.

Netflix which was some 20 megs and released after Firmware 3.5 is possibly on one side of the issue and Lovefilm which has a 2 meg downloadable client and must download the entire application both player and javascript UI with engine is the most extreme example of the other side.

If none of the applications list source code to comply with GNU license requirements then they are either in violation, using Air or are completely commercial code with no GNU PD source code. The latter being the least likely. Frankly I would be very surprised that multiple-independent-companies all reinvented the wheel by all writing web tools for these applications without using GNU licensed code; there being no financial benefit in doing so.

What this again seems to indicate (considering your statement above) is that I was wrong about a partial webkit in the PS3 for the javascript engine and Adobe Air 2.5 must be in the PS3.

 

[jeff_rigby]

No Flash = No AIR. Also I've seen no indication of WebKit or Chrome in the PS3 firmware.

Thanks for the reminder about GNU licensing.

What did you mean by No Flash = No Air.

It's called Flash inside the browser and AIR outside the browser and Air 2.5 = Flash 10.1 as far as features.

Hulu and Mubi are using Flash 3.5 streams. It's interesting that PS3 Firmware 3.5 may have added Air 2.5 to the PS3 to support Flash 3.5 streams.

http://download.cnet.com/Adobe-Flash-Media-Interactive-Server/3000-13631_4-10850382.html

Adobe Flash Media Interactive Server 3.5 software has the unique combination of powerful streaming media capabilities and a flexible environment for creating and delivering interactive social media applications to the broadest possible audience. It offers dramatically improved performance, more secure streaming, live streaming enhancements, industry-standard H.264 and HE-AAC support, and streaming delivery to mobile phones with Adobe Flash Lite 3 and Adobe Media Player software.

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010/05/18/ps3-mubi-you/

We’ve spent some time tying together an online cinema with a simple, engaging social network to help film lovers spread around the world connect over the movies they love best. And that is that. Welcome to MUBI.

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://takesontech.com/?tag=boxee

Vudu has announced that its streaming movie content will now be accessible from Sony’s PlayStation 3 game consoles. Beginning next week, users with PlayStation Network accounts can download the Vudu application from the media category in the PlayStation Store. The PS3 utility provides a similar interface to the Vudu app already available for supported TVs and set-top boxes.

http://www.slashgear.com/vudu-2-0-ui-teased-hd-ps3-streaming-due-later-this-month-16114408/

Vudu will be the Walmart Video streaming service
Divx TV will be the Best Buy Video streaming service

All the above will be available on multiple platforms

 

[scooby_dooby]

What did you mean by No Flash = No Air.

Well they are the same runtime really, if it could run one it would run the other. I guess it's not entirely true, since AIR Apps can be HTML Based, but AIR 2.5 doesn't support HTML apps yet, so it is...

Isn't is more likely these are native applications, written in C++ (or whatever PS3 uses?) Companies aren't going to try and re-use their existing HTML Storefront's, they'll build beautiful new User Interface from scratch, and use the native video player to stream video from their online servers.

I can tell you one thing for sure, there's no way in hell AIR 2.5 is on the PS3 any time soon. The AIR team is still scrambling to redo their packager for iPhone, and there's been no developer prereleases for AIR for TV yet, which usually happens quite a ways before actual deployment of the runtime.... hell AIR 2.5 doesn't even support StageVideo yet, which basically shuts the door on the possibility of playing HD video in AIR.

There could be a custom AIR build specially for PS3, but again where's the developer pre-release? Look at Blackberry Playbook, they are launching in Q1 2011, by then they will have had prerelease in place for 5mths before launch. Android Pre-release started in like May...I think it launched early Oct?

I can see it happening eventually though, Sony is one of Adobe's major CE partners. Just not right now, the timing is not quite right.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Well they are the same runtime really, if it could run one it would run the other. I guess it's not entirely true, since AIR Apps can be HTML Based, but AIR 2.5 doesn't support HTML apps yet, so it is...

Isn't is more likely these are native applications, written in C++ (or whatever PS3 uses?) Companies aren't going to try and re-use their existing HTML Storefront's, they'll build beautiful new User Interface from scratch, and use the native video player to stream video from their online servers.

I can tell you one thing for sure, there's no way in hell AIR 2.5 is on the PS3 any time soon. The AIR team is still scrambling to redo their packager for iPhone, and there's been no developer prereleases for AIR for TV yet, which usually happens quite a ways before actual deployment of the runtime.... hell AIR 2.5 doesn't even support StageVideo yet, which basically shuts the door on the possibility of playing HD video in AIR.

There could be a custom AIR build specially for PS3, but again where's the developer pre-release? Look at Blackberry Playbook, they are launching in Q1 2011, by then they will have had prerelease in place for 5mths before launch. Android Pre-release started in like May...I think it launched early Oct?

I can see it happening eventually though, Sony is one of Adobe's major CE partners. Just not right now, the timing is not quite right.

Air 2.5 does have a HTML5ish javascript engine and does support some HTML5 features but for full HTML it relies on an existing webkit which we all believe is not in the PS3 YET. This is why the downloaded UIs for these applications are so large, elements used for the UI are mostly graphics not HTML.

As to Stageview, Air now uses or can use the hardware accelerated H.264 built into devices for video. The PS3 has a built in H.264 codec that works in the PS3 like the hardware codec in a blu-ray player.

The point in using a cross platform runtime engine like Air is to get your application on as many platforms as possible with as little work as possible. That said, you could be right and Vudu could be a C+ applications compiled on the PS3. That it is dynamically update able would seem to indicate that the Application is an engine that parses the UI and has a custom video player or uses one in the PS3. That is essentially what Air does.

So these applications are ported C+ code duplicating Air functionality or they are Air applications on the PS3.

Mubi and Hulu use Flash server 3.5 streams with require Adobe Air 2.5 player functionality. Again, it's possible that cloned Flash players for the latest features seen in Air (Flash 10.1) have been developed but it's more likely that Air is being used.

Proof will have to wait on an application for the PS3 that everyone knows is an Air application or is stated as an Air application.

 

[ion]

I do (doing it now). I would love to do everything from my console browser. What's not to love about that (comfy couch and huge screen tied into a nice surround sound system)?

fair enough, though i have an HTPC for that as i can do far more along with it.

Can you do cloud OS type stuff from the ps3 browser? like this http://www.thinkgos.com/cloud/index.html

i think cloud computing from a console would be pretty cool cause it would allow the use of apps and stuff, especially if they threw in some cool photo editing software, casual games like pogo.com...etc. all from a homepage that looks like a desktop.
better yet, maybe integrate the browser as the console's main desktop with a launching bar for games and online cloud apps all in one and an offline mode that looks the same but of course disable cloud app icons and search bar. Basically in my idea, you can't see the browser as a window, rather as your desktop background so to speak

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Air 2.5 does have a HTML5ish javascript engine and does support some HTML5 features but for full HTML it relies on an existing webkit which we all believe is not in the PS3 YET. This is why the downloaded UIs for these applications are so large, elements used for the UI are mostly graphics not HTML.

Do HTML 5 sites use vector graphics? If so, that's news to me. Most UIs use bitmaps due to their flexibility for complex images, which can be hard to recreate in vectors and a lot slower to draw. But even then, it's wrong to attribute application size to UI elements. Many PSN download games are limited in content, but tens or hundreds of megabytes in size. There can be all sorts of 'bloat' that you aren't aware of and wouldn't even imagine could result in large file sizes.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Air 2.5 does have a HTML5ish javascript engine and does support some HTML5 features but for full HTML it relies on an existing webkit which we all believe is not in the PS3 YET. This is why the downloaded UIs for these applications are so large, elements used for the UI are mostly graphics not HTML.

No it doesn't, AIR 2.5 does not have HTMLLoader which is the embedded WebKit based browser. What AIR 2.5 does have, is StageWebView, which basically allow you to specify a Rect(), in which the native browser is displayed. However, it's totally limited, in that you can not communicate via Actionscript to the web page itself. So it's just a very basic method to display web pages inside AIR.

As to Stageview, Air now uses or can use the hardware accelerated H.264 built into devices for video. The PS3 has a built in H.264 codec that works in the PS3 like the hardware codec in a blu-ray player.

Yes, it does use any native hardware decoding to playback video, and most devices have a dedicated H264 decoder. However, this only enables acceptable performance of low-resolution video, it's not enough to handle HD. StageVideo is required for that, and as of today StageVideo is not released.

The point in using a cross platform runtime engine like Air is to get your application on as many platforms as possible with as little work as possible.

But there is no pre-existing AIR app, so they are not saving any money building it in AIR. The savings would come when they ported to a 2nd or 3rd platform... well there's no way MS is allowing AIR on their console, (this is what Silverlight will now do) so I'm not sure what other platforms would make sense.

There's also no pre-existing HTML5 app is there? I don't see how any company could realistically use HTML5 to deliver DRM video, it's not possible to protect it...

That said, you could be right and Vudu could be a C+ applications compiled on the PS3. That it is dynamically update able would seem to indicate that the Application is an engine that parses the UI and has a custom video player or uses one in the PS3. That is essentially what Air does.

So these applications are ported C+ code duplicating Air functionality or they are Air applications on the PS3.

This doesn't make any sense. All applications can update themselves.

Mubi and Hulu use Flash server 3.5 streams with require Adobe Air 2.5 player functionality. Again, it's possible that cloned Flash players for the latest features seen in Air (Flash 10.1) have been developed but it's more likely that Air is being used.

Why? FMS is nothign more than a glorified web server. Pretty sure it would not be too hard to hook up an alternative video player. At the end of the days, it's all 1's and 0's. Video is video.

For example, Blackberry Playbook will support StageVideo, which will allow for playback of DivX and other formats totally unsupported by the Flash runtime. However, I'm sure it will also work with FMS streams, so it's obviously perfectly possible to stream video from FMS and playback in a non-flash video player.

Proof will have to wait on an application for the PS3 that everyone knows is an Air application or is stated as an Air application.

No! Simply put, if AIR was coming to PS3, there would be a pre-release. If there was a pre-release I would've been invited. I haven't been... therefore, no AIR on PS3

 

[patsu]

fair enough, though i have an HTPC for that as i can do far more along with it.

Can you do cloud OS type stuff from the ps3 browser? like this http://www.thinkgos.com/cloud/index.html

i think cloud computing from a console would be pretty cool cause it would allow the use of apps and stuff, especially if they threw in some cool photo editing software, casual games like pogo.com...etc. all from a homepage that looks like a desktop.
better yet, maybe integrate the browser as the console's main desktop with a launching bar for games and online cloud apps all in one and an offline mode that looks the same but of course disable cloud app icons and search bar. Basically in my idea, you can't see the browser as a window, rather as your desktop background so to speak

You don't need web browser to do cloud computing. ^_^

 

[jeff_rigby]

No it doesn't, AIR 2.5 does not have HTMLLoader which is the embedded WebKit based browser. What AIR 2.5 does have, is StageWebView, which basically allow you to specify a Rect(), in which the native browser is displayed. However, it's totally limited, in that you can not communicate via Actionscript to the web page itself. So it's just a very basic method to display web pages inside AIR.

Yes, it does use any native hardware decoding to playback video, and most devices have a dedicated H264 decoder. However, this only enables acceptable performance of low-resolution video, it's not enough to handle HD. StageVideo is required for that, and as of today StageVideo is not released.

But there is no pre-existing AIR app, so they are not saving any money building it in AIR. The savings would come when they ported to a 2nd or 3rd platform... well there's no way MS is allowing AIR on their console, (this is what Silverlight will now do) so I'm not sure what other platforms would make sense.

There's also no pre-existing HTML5 app is there? I don't see how any company could realistically use HTML5 to deliver DRM video, it's not possible to protect it...

This doesn't make any sense. All applications can update themselves.

Why? FMS is nothign more than a glorified web server. Pretty sure it would not be too hard to hook up an alternative video player. At the end of the days, it's all 1's and 0's. Video is video.

For example, Blackberry Playbook will support StageVideo, which will allow for playback of DivX and other formats totally unsupported by the Flash runtime. However, I'm sure it will also work with FMS streams, so it's obviously perfectly possible to stream video from FMS and playback in a non-flash video player.

No! Simply put, if AIR was coming to PS3, there would be a pre-release. If there was a pre-release I would've been invited. I haven't been... therefore, no AIR on PS3

There are a few disagreements as to Air 2.5 features and how new PS3 WEB applications will work on a platform without a working webkit.

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/air/ajax/articles/air_and_webkit.html

This article presented an outline of the HTML features present in AIR for HTML/JavaScript developers. As the HTML engine used in AIR is based on the WebKit version used in Safari 4.0.3, they share many features, both in terms of HTML/JavaScript and CSS rendering. For the features that make sense for the AIR story and that are present in WebKit/Safari but not AIR, you can usually find alternatives that offer at least matching functionality. In some cases broader and more flexible APIs are available in AIR, as is the case with local storage, networking, and desktop integration. Also, performance has been greatly improved, approaching and sometimes matching the performance of Safari.

As to Air using the hardware based video codecs and running slower, you must have that backwards. Flashplayer built in codecs run slower than hardware based codecs, they do not have limitations imposed on them by Flash. The PS3 codecs will probably be published to Air as Hardware codecs.

No! Simply put, if AIR was coming to PS3, there would be a pre-release. If there was a pre-release I would've been invited. I haven't been... therefore, no AIR on PS3

Remember we are talking Sony here. Adobe stated that they would not be supporting PPC platforms which means that Sony had to port Flash 9 to the Netfront browser and must have ported Air 2.5 to the PS3. Are you a PS3 developer with an interest in and a product for WEB applications on the PS3, Does Sony know this?

HTML5ish support as in Database support, javascript outside the browser and the new HTML5 APIs for javascript (See link above to Air descriptions). That DRM is needed is understood and it's not just DRM, it's adaptive streaming, detection for commercial blocking and support for "interactive social media applications". Adobe just announced Air 2.5 with these features October 24th of this year. While a Flash clone is possible it would not be just a player, it would require most of the features in Air 2.5 like HTML, javascript engine and Database support.

We are not seeing many of the features possible with Air in most of the PS3 web applications probably because they are designed to be cross platform and support hardware platforms less robust. This lends support for arguments that it is not Air being used in the PS3.

Netflix is not using a Flash player, it uses Widevine for the player and DRM. Mubi and Hulu are using Flash 3.5 for streams: DRM, Adaptive streaming, detection of commercial blocking, interactive Social Media Applications.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Do HTML 5 sites use vector graphics? If so, that's news to me. Most UIs use bitmaps due to their flexibility for complex images, which can be hard to recreate in vectors and a lot slower to draw. But even then, it's wrong to attribute application size to UI elements. Many PSN download games are limited in content, but tens or hundreds of megabytes in size. There can be all sorts of 'bloat' that you aren't aware of and wouldn't even imagine could result in large file sizes.

There is renewed interest in SVG due to OpenGL hardware acceleration in handhelds that have limited memory. You are correct that most webpages use graphics not vector graphics for the reasons you state and Air 2.5 does not now support SVG but it is a feature that may be included in a future version.

A vector graphic in the case of lines, fonts, rectangles, circles will consume almost no memory compared to graphics based. I probably misspoke and the reason for graphics vs. HTML in buttons, fill, rectangles is probably due to limited support for HTML in some platforms.[/B]

The size of PS3 and Xbox games is related to textures which are graphics based not the vector graphics used in 3d games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The size of PS3 and Xbox games is related to textures which are graphics based not the vector graphics used in 3d games.

Not true. Model data can take up a fair bit, and I was thinking specifically of 2D games like Mushroom Wars or Puzzel Quest. It's also quite possible to create SVG UI components that are more memory intensive and slower to draw than a PNG.

If you are looking at a download size and apportioning most of large downloads that to graphics, you're suspicions are unreliable. Puzzle Quest on PSN, a simple gem-matching game with a little bit of artwork, weighs in at 243 MBs (the same game on PC takes 154 MBs)! We have no idea what is taking up what space in these downloads, but don't underestimate how much can be used in engines rather than content.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Not true. Model data can take up a fair bit, and I was thinking specifically of 2D games like Mushroom Wars or Puzzel Quest. It's also quite possible to create SVG UI components that are more memory intensive and slower to draw than a PNG.

If you are looking at a download size and apportioning most of large downloads that to graphics, you're suspicions are unreliable. Puzzle Quest on PSN, a simple gem-matching game with a little bit of artwork, weighs in at 243 MBs (the same game on PC takes 154 MBs)! We have no idea what is taking up what space in these downloads, but don't underestimate how much can be used in engines rather than content.

Your right of course, it's unreliable and I am looking at multiple PS3 web applications and how they each used the download differently.

For instance, Lovefilm (flash) is 2.2 megs on the PS store (from a EU user). It downloads it's javascript UI each and every time you connect to the server. I assume it's the UI it's downloading as it does not make sense to repeatedly download an engine and player. If this is the case then the engine and player are in the PS3.

The 2.2 megs is probably the PS3 Game OS shell that allows access to your PSN account information as well as other OS features like reporting that you are watching a movie to friends. It also must include a script to start the UI download and initilize as well as send Air the Digital authentication it requires.

Hulu (Flash 3.5) appears to be 7 megs in size after firmware 3.5 and before it downloads for the first time from the Hulu server. It must support social interaction so part of it may be PS3 code to access "friends" and more.

Netflix (HTML5ish) uses the widevine player and has a minimum size of 21 megs before connecting to the Netflix server. It also appears to download the UI each and every time it connects.

Mubi (Flash 3.5) I have no information on size as it's EU and just released.

MLB (don't know) 7 megs after update required by PS3 firmware 3.5

I'm sure you can find other possibles for these observations....

Not true. Model data can take up a fair bit, and I was thinking specifically of 2D games like Mushroom Wars or Puzzel Quest. It's also quite possible to create SVG UI components that are more memory intensive and slower to draw than a PNG.

I was thinking of FF that could have used 2 blu-ray disks on the PS3 and the developer stated it was due to textures.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Mubi (Flash 3.5) I have no information on size as it's EU and just released.

IIRC it was 20 MBs. I don't know what you're looking for in these figures though! Taht could be 20 MBs of anything, from code to UI. We've no idea what's streamed from servers, what libraries are already in PS3, etc.

I was thinking of FF that could have used 2 blu-ray disks on the PS3 and the developer stated it was due to textures.

That's one game. Models can be big consumers of data, as can audio. Code generally isn't, but there can often be redundant code where engines are used - Puzzle Quest should only be a few megs on PC in terms of what's needed to create such a game. If you're interested you may want to go digging around Google for examples of game datas from ripped games. There are quite a few examples that show how big various graphics, audio and code files are on a disc.

 

[jeff_rigby]

IIRC it was 20 MBs. I don't know what you're looking for in these figures though! Taht could be 20 MBs of anything, from code to UI. We've no idea what's streamed from servers, what libraries are already in PS3, etc.

It's interesting that Vudu and Dixv TV both claim support from the same LG blu-ray players and Divx TV says it's installed on 350 million devices. That would make me believe that both run on a cross platform engine in these devices or specifications from Silicon on a chip manufacturers for Video Codec and Javascript engine. I.E. the support for the applications is in the platform.

Looking at the LG BD 570 blu-ray player for instance revels that it supports the following:

Vudu
Roxio Cinema Now which is Divx TV
Pandora
Picasa
Netflix
Youtube Requires Flash player
Yahoo Widgets Requires javascript
And more. Plex (Plexapp.com) is to be in the 2011 LG Netcast products.

The above tells us that a very minimal javascript HTML and player codec is needed to support these cross platform applications. Platforms with hard disks and an OS or "other OS" support would need a more extensive DRM system.

Air can certainly provide support for the above on the PS3 but it's overkill unless other more advanced app are in the pipeline. In any case a Javascript engine and Flash player is certainly in the PS3.

If "Other OS" was removed to allow support for applications like Vudu or Hulu while not requiring a more extensive DRM system then Air is probably not in the PS3 OR the Walmart (Vudu) and Roxio now (Best Buy) as well as other video streaming services are not planning on using an extensive DRM system for their streams.

Vudu is coming to the PS3 and Divx TV states it is coming to a Gaming platform. Vudu will have a version 2 of the Vudu UI with Move support mid December.