How was Ps2 thought to work ???
- Thread starter ShinHoshi
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zurich said:cthellis,
IMO, The Bouncer cutscenes were far superior to FF X's(hair being the most obvious.. *shudders at Yuna/Lu Lu's hair*)
Really? I rather attribute peculiarities of their hair to the more fantastical nature of FFX itself. I rather think it was handled better... (But then it's been a LOOONG time since I've watched any of The Bouncer's cutscenes. ^_^;; )
Plus, comparing the two games and looking for advancements, we certainly can't put all the emphasis on comparing cutscenes...
On this age old PS2 - DC debate, from my experience,
PS2 = TnL + Framebuffer effects
DC = Textures + IQ
I find it hard to give PS2 the overall tops against DC. Though we can see some nifty PS2 games, there are always something not right somewhere. Be it the dreaded grainy textures or the usual IQ problems.
PS2 = TnL + Framebuffer effects
DC = Textures + IQ
I find it hard to give PS2 the overall tops against DC. Though we can see some nifty PS2 games, there are always something not right somewhere. Be it the dreaded grainy textures or the usual IQ problems.
chaphack said:
Somehow this does not surprise me...
Counteracted by her facial shape and detailing feeling a lot less realistic nor carrying emotion as well...
On the hair, I can't remember well enough and sadly comparing screenshots won't give me the same angles and lighting, and certainly won't let me see it in motion... I guess I'll just have to pick it up on the cheap somewhere. Hehe...
To me, what will remain the best thing about The Bouncer was the ability for me to select Japanese dialogue with english subtitles...! Which of course gets me totally frustrated at EVERY GAME since then that SHOULD offer mix-and-match language options but DOESN'T!
On the hair, I can't remember well enough and sadly comparing screenshots won't give me the same angles and lighting, and certainly won't let me see it in motion... I guess I'll just have to pick it up on the cheap somewhere. Hehe...
To me, what will remain the best thing about The Bouncer was the ability for me to select Japanese dialogue with english subtitles...! Which of course gets me totally frustrated at EVERY GAME since then that SHOULD offer mix-and-match language options but DOESN'T!
marconelly!
Veteran
Heh, interesting that you have to be an employee of PoverVR to know true power of DC, but everyone has PS2 figured inside and out
Anyways, I'm not saying DC wouldn't improve in those areas over time had it been given a chance, but PS2 software has also improved and keeps doing so. I'm usually very realistic in my expectations, and I simply don't expect to see tables turn around 180o just because someone tapped into hardware's 'mystical powers' unbeknownst to man just couple of days ago. I don't expect to see it from PS2 and I didn't expected to see it from DC (and at the end of the day, didn't see it)
Cthellis,
Ya I totally agree that the facial geometry/animation on the FF X models is far superior, but the hair.. oi the hair :? I tried to find better screens of The Bouncer but there isn't much out there these days
Oh, and I'm in COMPLETE agreement with you about the JP dialog/ENG subs The catch is that the voice tracks take up the majority of space on the DVD these days :?
Ya I totally agree that the facial geometry/animation on the FF X models is far superior, but the hair.. oi the hair :? I tried to find better screens of The Bouncer but there isn't much out there these days
Oh, and I'm in COMPLETE agreement with you about the JP dialog/ENG subs
The catch is that the voice tracks take up the majority of space on the DVD these days :?marconelly! said:Heh, interesting that you have to be an employee of PoverVR to know true power of DC, but everyone has PS2 figured inside and out
Anyways, I'm not saying DC wouldn't improve in those areas over time had it been given a chance, but PS2 software has also improved and keeps doing so. I'm usually very realistic in my expectations, and I simply don't expect to see tables turn around 180o just because someone tapped into hardware's 'mystical powers' unbeknownst to man just couple of days ago. I don't expect to see it from PS2 and I didn't expected to see it from DC (and at the end of the day, didn't see it)
Actually if u did a little bit of reading you'd know exactly what the gpu in the dc could do. Just like most people here know what the ps2 can do from reading. Some others through listening to posts made about the ps2. Of course on this forum the posts for ps2 > xbox , dc , gamecube. So we all have a firm grasp on how it runs . Mabye some tech posts on the xbox , dc and gc inner workings will bring most of this forum up to date on all the systems grahpical power.
zurich said:Oh, and I'm in COMPLETE agreement with you about the JP dialog/ENG subs
Granted, and that's what I assumed kept them from pulling it in FFX (since there was a LOT of dialogue and they were probably stretched for space), but I've seen some games where they have completely different language modes--ALL the other languages intact, even with dialogue, but they don't give full language freedom when EVERY PART IS ALREADY THERE, and all it would really involve is a bit of extra coding and--like--another menu.
Dark Cloud 2, for instance. You can pick a whole japanese mode, but it changes the dialgue, the menus... everything. If they just let you change dialogue ONLY while keeping one's preferences otherwise, it would be optimal right there!
Le sigh...
cthellis42 said:zurich said:Oh, and I'm in COMPLETE agreement with you about the JP dialog/ENG subs
Granted, and that's what I assumed kept them from pulling it in FFX (since there was a LOT of dialogue and they were probably stretched for space), but I've seen some games where they have completely different language modes--ALL the other languages intact, even with dialogue, but they don't give full language freedom when EVERY PART IS ALREADY THERE, and all it would really involve is a bit of extra coding and--like--another menu.
Dark Cloud 2, for instance. You can pick a whole japanese mode, but it changes the dialgue, the menus... everything. If they just let you change dialogue ONLY while keeping one's preferences otherwise, it would be optimal right there!
Le sigh...
I don't know if you've seen the 'international' Halo clips (showing Halos intro in English, Japanese, German, Italian, etc), but the sampling quality is much lower than the original (taking into consideration the quicktime quality and all). So perhaps for EU releases where publishers are forced to include multiple voice tracks, they dumb down the sound quality to make room? *shrugs*
Onimusha pissed me off. The english voice acting was TERRIBLE, but there was an option in the menu for Japanese voices.. flipping it on did nothing though. GRRR...
I think with some top quality games like FF X, I don't mind english voices.. but for some stylized Japanese games like ZoE2, JP soundtrack would really help the atmosphere.
marconelly!
Veteran
I'd say you haven't took a look at DC games in a while, because right now, there are games in every genre on PS2 that outrun their respective competitors on DC in every single area imaginable. Maybe DC had better IQ and textures on average, but if you compare top tier games (which only makes sense IMO) I think there's no argument, really.
I think you guys all need to cut Simon some slack here. It is a fact that the resources spent on researching PS2 utilization are far bigger to date then what was focused on DC, and even so I still see PS2 apps today that do things poorly or just plain wrong (from my point of view) and I wasn't amongst HW designers for it.Marc said:
It's not like he's saying that improved use of DC hardware would have suddenly make the future games look like XBox games (although in case of Sega XBox games, that could very well happen 8) ).
That said...
It's a reasonable argument, but begs the question why DC which happens to be even more memory limited didn't resort to it more often.Simon said:
Moreover, consider that out of all 4 consoles, the only one where detail texturing is common (heck, it's practically standard) is XBox. All others use it rarely, or pretty much never.
This doesn't regard other multitexturing applications of course.
I'm sure that if everyone had PS2 figured inside out everygame would be GT4 or SH3 quality...
PS2 is extremely open regarding direct access to the graphics and rendering pipeline - much more even than DC ( where most people would use the libraries) so there is more scope for constructive trickery...
PS2 is extremely open regarding direct access to the graphics and rendering pipeline - much more even than DC ( where most people would use the libraries) so there is more scope for constructive trickery...
Unless you also gave everyone 100+ people teams I don't see how that could possibly be the case.
It's all well and fine talking about technical aspects of the games but the big budget games always far outshine everything they do on technical side with their production value. Sometimes to the point where they can be "technically" quite poor, and still make a great showcase regardless.
The problem is that on PS2 'direct' access part isn't limited to neither graphics or rendering pipeline - they pretty much showel you into dealing with the most menial aspects of the applications on barebones level.
Memory card management libraries and related issues are a disgrace (I'm not saying they are necesserily much better on other consoles, but the way they are handled on Sony consoles is pathetic).
Sound, controller, file... etc. libraries are a little better, but nonetheless very poorly conceived (which is best demonstrated by having multiple versions of each of them).
People are all so quick to jump on graphical 'difficulties' but when you end up needlessly wasting time and money on what is perceived as minor things, noone so much as raises voice.
Everygame should aim to have high production quality - After all if you are entering a crowded genre you can't put 'quite good as our team was small' on the box.
But I was limiting myself to the technical points ( and hence the smiley ) as an indication of how individual developer time ( and hence money ) affects
things.
Most people harp on about memcards because QA departments get anal about their compliance - you can always argue about framerate, but memcard requirements become a simple yes/no. ( Heck window's only managed to support my removable drives properly in XP - 2000 complains bitterly about drive power going and discs being removed )
( Not being bitten by TRC issues at the moment,are you???? )
But I was limiting myself to the technical points ( and hence the smiley ) as an indication of how individual developer time ( and hence money ) affects
things.
Most people harp on about memcards because QA departments get anal about their compliance - you can always argue about framerate, but memcard requirements become a simple yes/no. ( Heck window's only managed to support my removable drives properly in XP - 2000 complains bitterly about drive power going and discs being removed )
( Not being bitten by TRC issues at the moment,are you???? )
Fafalada said:
Does anyone know why that is? Is it a hardware advantage, the SDK or the PC background?
IMO the only thing that really separates xbox games from PS2 games (and to a lesser extent GC games) is detail texturing. Sure some xbox games use a little bump-mapping, and others multisample AA, but not to such an extent as to really make a difference in overall appearance.
It's the detail texturing that makes xbox games look so much better/different, again IMO.
If I where a PS2 or GC developer, I would put a lot more of my resources into finding a way of doing detail texturing as efficiently as on xbox. Is that possible? And if it is, why isn’t it done?
Squeak said:
question i've been asking for the last year or so....
zurich said:
I feel almost dippy still talking about this while everyone else is going into detail elsewhere... Hehe.
Almost all the time I prefer Japanese voice acting, I guess coming from my rather liberal anime background. Hehe... FFX has reasonable enough dubbing, but still not up to standards. I'd pretty much want voice acting at the new Batman cartoon levels if anything, which showed a lot more realistic emotion and didn't try to get so "cutesy". I wouldn't even have minded somewhat downsampled dialogue tracks from both to get it on FFX. Sadly it just seems like most production houses don't concentrate enough on getting the (alternate) dialogue right, which is a shame because it can be about as jarring as as using a Casiotone for all your music needs.
cthellis42 said:I feel almost dippy still talking about this while everyone else is going into detail elsewhere... Hehe.
Almost all the time I prefer Japanese voice acting, I guess coming from my rather liberal anime background. Hehe... FFX has reasonable enough dubbing, but still not up to standards. I'd pretty much want voice acting at the new Batman cartoon levels if anything, which showed a lot more realistic emotion and didn't try to get so "cutesy". I wouldn't even have minded somewhat downsampled dialogue tracks from both to get it on FFX. Sadly it just seems like most production houses don't concentrate enough on getting the (alternate) dialogue right, which is a shame because it can be about as jarring as as using a Casiotone for all your music needs.
yep. definately dippy. whatever that means.
