Heh, Michael Moore's Call to Arms

[pax]

Bleh posts are getting too long. Mercedes didnt SUE the us gov for bombing its plants AFTER the war legion. Only GM had the gall to do that.

One of the points of the movie was to point how the long oppression of blacks may also be a cause of the excess gun violence... Didnt say the NRA was repsonsible for oppressing gun ownership of blacks. It certainly didnt defend their rights to own them tho.

Yeah Id say the mansons bit sumed it up quite well...

As for Iraq My only opposition to the war regarded the same intellignece used to justify it. That Iraq had a well financed and long running bio weapons program which could easily become the source of retaliation.

Iraq was rock and hard place situation. But to me retaliation was much more likely than the blackmail scenarios...

I think only Ted Koppel had the guts to ask this very question to officials. He literally became flushed with rage when the answers started to contradict the intelligence the same officials used to justify belief in a serious active wmd program. No one including journalists like to be lied to.

Indeed no leftists I know were against removing saddam. They were against the possible slaughter if the wmds were used and also had concerns about vietnam like scenarios and clash of civs ect... Why right wingers keep bringin up the moral arguement for remving saddam everyone agrees upon is getting pretty mindnumbing...

Leftists by far care more about the needy and oppressed than the right. Leftists govs have more money devote to this as well as far less conervative (duh) policies towards the 3rd world... You'll never be able to convince me that right wingers care more...

I dont see the propaganda in columbine legion. He essentially acquitted the NRA of wrongdoing... In Canada we have as many guns, almost as many blacks and minorities and 10% per capita your gun murder rate.

I think bowling for columbine and my years of watching us and canuckian news does paint this. Can news is not filled with stories of drive bys and murders and rapes and shooting ect... Can news is a lot more boring but also a bit more international in flavor.

I know theres a lot of sytlized distortion and yeah I read the links and others... They are 99% nit picking... the main themes of moores docus are still valid. Id like to read a page that shows the interview of roger smith. Im sure itll be a variant of we needed more profits or to be competitive but ill read it anyway.

I really dont see how the link you gave didint make it in bad tastes for the NRA to goto columbine after the massacre... I dont care how much was spent or organised for the event. You simply dont do that after a tragedy. NRA simply got a lot of bad press over that they didnt need as I do want the NRA to keep gun ownership as legal as possible. After the 2000 election and other shenanigans Ive read about Im very wary of the survivability of American democracy.

It might one day take a lot of middle class folks with a lot of guns to keep the political fringes from subverting democracy through the courts.

Canada is about 10% the us pop... But we have significant minorities including black... so do many european nations.

Canadian medicare is much more affrodable than US. And it covers everyone. No ideology there ask any large corporation that does biz up here. And we arent running any deficits up here anymore... Debt is down to 40% of gdp and should drop to 25% gdp in about 5-7 years.

I justs didnt see the comparison... still dont... I said the NRA with heston had these rallies full of bluster and hoopla which was only painted as a bad thing when they had the tasteless idea of going to their planned rally at columbine. Otherwise I have no issue with such rallies in either style or content. But we dont do that with medicare up here.

Its not just people of the south at the time... but he made a good point of white and slave owners in general being lazy to want slaves. What is a stereotype if slavery was a southern thing and not a northern thing at the time of the civil war? This is a general condemnation of slavery that also existed in the north previously and elsewhere and in some places still does exist.

The conclusions drawn by his docu are pretty reasonable. If you have other reasons other than stereotyping blacks as youve accused me of stereotyping southern whites let me know...

The argument for never having lower profits will have us cies move everything offshore... short of those things that have need of direct services renderred locally... Its a recipe for the early demise of a healthy us economy. In my mind it makes no diff. As when too many have moved offshore they wont have a market to sell into back in the US at some point.

So you say if cie doesnt move offshore itll die form havign to pay good wages. I say thats almost never true... its simply more vs less profits as costs of production keep becoming lower and less relevant to actual market prices. Although eventually thatll have to give if the market keeps being undermined. Its like choosing between an inflationary vs deflationary economy.

A lot of what Moore says is substantiated and with relevant refs in his books... It doesnt need to be all true and I did get ticked about lockeed tho again not very relevant. The perception of lockeed as an arms maker was the question not what that plant actually made...

At worse you can say hes sloppy I feel. Probly didnt bother to double some things. But many times it doesnt matter...

This is a common thing however. Such as the recent findings that even in the US military aaccounting of wmds is very sloppy with lots of stuff dissapearing if only for a time from records. Youd think wed have heard about that before the war.

Your just plainly wrong when you say all facts are wrong and Ive cited some facts that are true jsut as example. I browsed SWM last nite again... its full of verifiable facts. Many Ive read in history books. That Moore puts aspin on them is maybe not always true but you cant juist say his facts are also all lies... You'll have to find a pretty naive person to eat that one.

Im not surprised gm went to mexico. Id have had a better trade deal tho. Tho thats not necessary now we dont have a free trade deal with China and they are still going there.

I know people would have prefered making shoes at 10$ an hour over flippin bugers at min wage. And probly prefered it to unemployment at zero wage. I know people who work in such factories NOW why wouldnt they want to work in those??? This is very tenous an arguement legion as it was for the NIKE ceo ... That Moore couldnt find large crowds of people
in flint (as they had probably moved on by then) only shows Moore shouldve gone eslewhere as theres plenty of people looking for work in other towns too.

Glad to see you dont leave doors locked... So you live in an upper class neighborhood. Good for you. But why do people in detroit leave doors locked? My folks dont live in a upper class area in Montreal (east end) and they dont lock their doors. East end has had up to 20% unemployment...

My reasoning is backed by observation of american society over the last 20 years. That moore came up with an idea to showcase what weve been seeing in the US from up here for so long was not a surprise to us. It did give us some more insight and anecdotes and some laughs in the process tho... Christ I know americans who moved up here to escape the crime...

IM not saying its armageddon down there and not all over the place... but some of your cities are really having probs...

Ive never locked my door when at home. So yes its not because moore asserted this. Its because it was observed and reported as a living habit of many in us cities. Its an alien habit to me and people I know. To say its irrelevant you need to show why these habits exist if you dont agree fear of crime is the cause.

Didnt say all environmental legislation is justified...

Im tired of the conomic model that says you need to export your own econoy to toher countries so they export back to your what you made even tho they cant affrod to buy what they make from their own incomes. Mexico needed investment to make things for mexicans. The best eocnomcies didint dtart off as export economies. They started off as protected BUT democratic which lacked in mexico.

Probly still lacks a lot. Doesnt matter anyway mexico is losing to china what they got from us. So if they want to have an economy they wont have a choice but to make for themselves soon.

I dont support his mantra. I do agree with some of his observations. Pretty general accusation there legion youll paint anything I agree with moore as mantra...

No point in Moore giong on O'rielly hell be shouted down. O'reilly censors what he doesnt like to hear. Id like a link to Rogers responses.

I dotnthink the court analogy is valid... and no I dont think appealing is always indicator of guilt but it can be...

Does the GM ceo need permission to print that interview? Ive googled for about 20 min and found squat...

I dont trust gov anymore than corporations. Size usually indicates to me how much trust something deserves.

You have few facts and couldnt rebutt the exmaples I used. Much of your links are editorials and nit picking. Ive read a few of those since last winter. Who cares awhat lockeed makes in the town? So the cartoon misrepresents the NRA. Again not really relevant as the NRA isnt exposed by the movie. Its shown as irrelevant to the problem at hand which is gun deaths. Canada has as many guns but we dont shoot each other. And yes we have a lrage clack pop and other minorities so its not ethnic.

But the history of slavery and oppression and now fear of crime from medis outlets diging up every little murder for the 6 ocolock news are valid reason tyo think the us is abit more afraid of some of its citizens black or not... than other nations. This is ideology? Its observed fact...

I have givewn you a reason why your point of vue is innacurate. You generalize completely about moore instead of discerning where fact and fiction meet. That very stance is fallacious. Moore ia public figure. The idea he could tell ALL LIES and get away with it is ridiculous.

Its you who denies grey areas... take moore point by point in columbine and then tell me what is true... Ive seen pages that do it and admit a lot of it is true and a lot editorialized and in fact quite afew lies (tho I tend to see more editorializing).

You however only see lies... thats an absurd stance...

And no Ive accepted observations by right wing editorials that I thought were full of lies but had accruate facts.... and vice versa...

Moore didint lie about his question in columbine nor about the some fo the answers he feels hes found that many ahd already observed. And he also says its not a complete answer. So ireally dont see why such nit picking about lockeed's missiles nearbby makes any diff whether they are nuclear or sat launching ... Most of the facts he says in columbine are true... Ive checked em and even web pages that denoucne Moore dont take on all his assertions that he uses to argue his answer... Your quite a bit to the right of many conservative pages there legion...

I never made up my mind as I continue to say I think we only have part of the answer. Ih a country and big as the US there will be many answers. You simply dont like moore as he is lefty to your righty thus cant be telling truth about much if anything...

Youd come off as a lot more objective is you could agree with some of moores assertions... some of them are pretty common knowledge...

Im pretty much done your not openminded to the simple fact of even a modest arguemtn that some americans live if ever so modeslty more in fear opf crime than canadians for ex... You cant acknowlded history as having an effect on a countries evolution.

I really dont see the point of this anymore...

Ill keep googling a bit for rogers response...

 

[CosmoKramer]

Nice post Pax

 

[Florin]

I'm not sure what comparing culturally means. I'd say looking at various stats like these from the

I see no reason to not to compare the the total of all ethnic backgrounds to nations of disimiliar ethnic backgrounds.

If we were comparing the US to predominately white England i would suggest we compare the ethnic backgrounds which are similar to for purpose of statistical accuracy.

What statistical accuracy? We're talking about gun death in the US vs the rest of the civilised world. I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring ethnicity into this. Those ethnic groups you seek to differentiate between are all US citizens. This is particularly baffling when there are so far more obvious reasons to account for the differences in violent crime rates - private gun ownership yes or no being first and foremost of course.

By doing this you more than likely you would find comparable ethnic backgrounds to be of similiar rates of crime across the board.

Many other factors including urbanization also play into the violence factor.

It is a fact that african americans committ disproportionately higher amounts of crime (specifically violent crimes) then whites or latin americans. This obviously is a cultural element.

I fail to see how that is obvious. Socio-economic reasons seem more likely to account for such disproportions.

Is crime some how a problem with america as a whole or mainly the majority of those whom committ violent crimes. Does american somehow become a fearful place because african americans committ such acts of violent crimes?

What are you trying to say here? America is not a fearful place? Or at least in those areas where there are no african americans?

How are african americans (a minority in america) representative of american sentitments as a whole?

You know, I really couldn't speak for their sentiments or those of Americans on the whole. I'd say that judging from the way you stress the race issue it would appear that perhaps Mr. Moore does have a point there somehow.

I don't recall anywhere in the article suggesting where these figures came from. Infact this sounds familiar to Moores claims that utilized a health board figures to verify his claims. It is very possible this site is using the figure not verified by the FBI. I wouldn't consider them an accurate representation of violence related fire arm deaths.

The World Health Organization has recommendations on classification of deaths. But if you feel a US national organization like the feds is more likely to provide reliable information, fine. It doesn't matter much.

The article i posted refers you to the actual number of fire arm related deaths which come to a number around 8,300. The health boards figure was around 11,200. A clear discrepency. I would be more inclined to believe the FBI then i would the claimes of hospitals who have done no research into the patience death.

This discrepancy is only mildly interesting because even if you accept the figure of 8300, your claim that those numbers are comparable to those in European countries is completely off.

 

[Legion]

Bleh posts are getting too long. Mercedes didnt SUE the us gov for bombing its plants AFTER the war legion. Only GM had the gall to do that.

It was their property. Why, agian, did they deserve to have it destroyed?

One of the points of the movie was to point how the long oppression of blacks may also be a cause of the excess gun violence...

I don't see how. He fails to address how mordern african american culture is more related to the violence then any other factor. Moore simply suggest there was a relation. This is historically inaccurate. The massive rise is african american violence has been more towards the later end of the 20th century, some 150 years after the end of slavery.

I would rather enjoy seeing Moore explain how slavery contributes to the violent and otherwise criminal incouragements conveyed through african american culture.

Didnt say the NRA was repsonsible for oppressing gun ownership of blacks. It certainly didnt defend their rights to own them tho.

you are riht he didn't say that. What he did was show a cartoon of the NRA passing fuel to the KKK to fire up their burning crosses. Directly linking the two not through words, but through actions.

Yeah Id say the mansons bit sumed it up quite well...

I think GM's president summed it up quite a bit but unfortunately all michael moore advocates have never seen the interview.

As for Iraq My only opposition to the war regarded the same intellignece used to justify it. That Iraq had a well financed and long running bio weapons program which could easily become the source of retaliation.

It could also become the source of further outsourcing of his work. meaning he himself may not have been a direct threat in terms of a strike from Iraq. But rather as a source for bio-chem weapons.

Iraq was rock and hard place situation. But to me retaliation was much more likely than the blackmail scenarios...

The emmediate threat issue wasn't the main issue to attack iraq. This is merely a straw man argument imployed by the left.

I for one felt justified in attacking Iraq not because they were a direct threat in terms of a strike from iraq, as i have said before, but because they could have become a bio-chem weapons market.

Saddam beligerance and refusal to demonstrate he had followed regulation in destroying these bio-chem weapons called for his removal.

I think only Ted Koppel had the guts to ask this very question to officials. He literally became flushed with rage when the answers started to contradict the intelligence the same officials used to justify belief in a serious active wmd program. No one including journalists like to be lied to.

it wasn't our place to prove that Saddam had followed the the guidelines. It was his reponsibility to prove he had.

Indeed no leftists I know were against removing saddam. They were against the possible slaughter if the wmds were used and also had concerns about vietnam like scenarios and clash of civs ect...

i don't think they were. common sense dictates that one should have hit him on the mark before he could deploy his arsenal. A preemptive strike.
If we sat around it would only give him ample time to mobilize his arsenal.

Why right wingers keep bringin up the moral arguement for remving saddam everyone agrees upon is getting pretty mindnumbing...

I think it is safe to say not many on the side of the opposition could conceive a moral opposition was involved. They mainly jumped on the oil band wagon.

Leftists by far care more about the needy and oppressed than the right. Leftists govs have more money devote to this as well as far less conervative (duh) policies towards the 3rd world... You'll never be able to convince me that right wingers care more...

Of course i won't convince you. You aren't willing to debate what are and aren't working policies, if having extra policies means more positive results. You've pretty much stated your unalterable conclusion you haven't provided evidence for. yet left wing ideology is responsible for much of the failures of third world countries. Dare i same communism and socialism have taken their tolls.

I dont see the propaganda in columbine legion.

Again i don't see why. I have provided you with an information rich resource explaining the fraudulent claims of B4C. Moore tries to substantiate his claims based on fictional occurances, misrepresentations of facts, irrational emotional arguments, and radically exaggerated claims.

For these reasons alone i believe you choose to ignore the major faults in reasoning of Moore as you favor his conclusion. This is dishonest pax. You are siding with him merely because you share a similiar view though you lack any evidence substantiating his claims. You have told me before in so many words you can't see the errors in moore's work: B4C. Yet you haven't yet provided a single reason outside of those which Moore has (all of which have been refuted) for believing what you do.

These leaves me as curious.

He essentially acquitted the NRA of wrongdoing... In Canada we have as many guns, almost as many blacks and minorities and 10% per capita your gun murder rate.

You also are no where near as urban nor share many of the same subcultural (particullarly african american subculture) aspects that do not make up america as a whole.

What is the meaning behind your your statements concerning gun violence in canada? Do they some how suggest Moore's claims are accurate? If so how? How could you conclude that do to lower canadian crime rates that americans live in more fear than you canadians do? What real world relevancy does this have? Wouldn't that be putting the effect before the cause? Moore's logic is circuituous;

1. why is america so violent?
2. because america has so much fear
3. why does it have so much fear
4. because it has so much violence.

I think one can logically determine fear is not the cause of the violence but rather some external forces which Moore, especially when involved with african american culture, would rather paint heston as a racist then civilly discuss with him.

The argument is rather silly when you think about it. Are countries with higher rates of crime automatically more fearful then those who have less crime? Is the country with the least crime automatically the most fearless? What relevancy does this have?

I think bowling for columbine and my years of watching us and canuckian news does paint this.

paint what? That america is a culture of fear? All he has to do is suggest it and you'd readily believe it. Hense you have had a prejudice before Moore suggested this. What would have happened if Moore suggested the opposite? Would you automatically have ignored him? I think you would have. I think you would have focused on his inaccuries and inability to provide evidence for his claims as a rebuttle to his claims. You would have been completely justified. His "evidence" does not back his claims regardless of his position.

Can news is not filled with stories of drive bys and murders and rapes and shooting ect...

But american media is? Will you please go from state to state in search of media outlets and provide me with evidence that american media is fool of violence. I am finding this hard to believe Pax. Do you know why? Because i am in america and i read and watch american news channels. I am not seeing what you are seeing.

Can news is a lot more boring but also a bit more international in flavor.

bullshit. With over 500 channels to pick from US satellite cable provides you with endless media outlets from around the world.

Here is a thought for a docu pax. Perhaps Can's are less violent then americans and less fearful because can tv is so mindnumbling boring your people are pacified into a catatonic state. Disabeling them from committing crime.

I know theres a lot of sytlized distortion and yeah I read the links and others... They are 99% nit picking...

says you Paxy prejudice.

the main themes of moores docus are still valid.

Yeah. Thats why i proposed what i did about the Canadian media.

the real answer to the problem is mind numbing the populace with hours of Connie Chung and kids in the hall.

Id like to read a page that shows the interview of roger smith. Im sure itll be a variant of we needed more profits or to be competitive but ill read it anyway.

You can find all of that and more at www.moorewatch.com

also check out the author of the Hardylaw pages interview with Larry Elder. He explains a lot about what was said.

I really dont see how the link you gave didint make it in bad tastes for the NRA to goto columbine after the massacre...

Didn't he state the Denver meeting was cancelled? That infact they went to the meeting the year after that or something to that affect.

Those Heston clips were nothing but trash Pax. Please don't try and make it sound like Moore even had a point here.

I dont care how much was spent or organised for the event.

it was an annual event pax.

You simply dont do that after a tragedy.

How many years must they wait Pax. I do recall him stating the meeting was cancelled.

Damnit Pax can you please stop the whining for a minute and just be damn honest with me

Moore went out of his way to lie about what he claimed heston had said during his spliced speaches. Will you admit this? Will you stop nit picking at every minor and insignificant issue you feel to be true while dismissing the whole? The Whole embodiment of what moore did was wrong, dishonest, and outright libel. If i were heston i would have sued him for what he did and i garauntee you i would have won in court. Regardless of how you see the NRA's actions after columbine Moore had no right to committ. Can you not admit this either?

Canada is about 10% the us pop... But we have significant minorities including black... so do many european nations.

Canadian medicare is much more affrodable than US.

Would that be do inpart to the overal taxation of your public? Perhaps it doesn't cost as much (i have explained this a million times already) because your medicare isn't being fully covered in expenses, your don't cover as many people, you do not have the same devotion to undating technology, you have no where near the quality of medicare, you don't give the world the same amount of charitable donations that we do, and you are over taxed. There, i think i summed it up nicely.

And it covers everyone.

with what seems to be inadequate service. From my research it seems many cases are defered to the US do to inability to handle certain procedures. The cost of medicare is rising in your country and is serving to slowing bankrupt government coffers. Within the next 20 years a great deal of your population will be retired. This alone with the need for more facilities, more medicine and supplies, and more technology will heaving hit into the canadian budget.

No ideology there ask any large corporation that does biz up here.

We have had this conversation before and i sited resources that included a number of people involved in the field making rather dire predictions about your medicare plan.

I am sure they would agree with you under the terms you put forth...under mine? Don't think so.

And we arent running any deficits up here anymore... Debt is down to 40% of gdp and should drop to 25% gdp in about 5-7 years.

I think you are best discussing this with Democoder or Vince. They can provide you with a very long detailed explanation as to the state of american economics.

I justs didnt see the comparison... still dont... I said the NRA with heston had these rallies full of bluster and hoopla which was only painted as a bad thing when they had the tasteless idea of going to their planned rally at columbine.

I didn't get that from the evidence Did you? How? After Moore's crude splicing job i was confused as to when and where that meeting took place. For that matter i didn't even know the year .

Pax, Moore is such an idiot. Why didn't he even bother to digitally edit Heston's tie during the conferences so we couldn't tell it changes colors 4 times during the supposed speach; moore's of cut and paste docu?

Otherwise I have no issue with such rallies in either style or content. But we dont do that with medicare up here.

Its not just people of the south at the time... but he made a good point of white and slave owners in general being lazy to want slaves.

Would you want to work on a plantation? Could you fufill the work quota.

I am pretty sure there were some lazy slaves to pax. Slavory often dictates lower quality of work do to failing convictions.

what relevancy does this statement have on anything or anyone in the modern era? I suppose as lazy as a corporation who highers workers to work for them. Its a system. Personally i think Union workers and welfare recipients were lazy.

What is a stereotype if slavery was a southern thing and not a northern thing at the time of the civil war?

Not all southerners had slaves. Not all southerners supported slavery. Surely not all were lazy. Surely not all slaves were hard working.

This is a general condemnation of slavery that also existed in the north previously and elsewhere and in some places still does exist.

and not because of bigotted prejudice against southerners pax?

The conclusions drawn by his docu are pretty reasonable. If you have other reasons other than stereotyping blacks as youve accused me of stereotyping southern whites let me know...

The argument for never having lower profits will have us cies move everything offshore... short of those things that have need of direct services renderred locally... Its a recipe for the early demise of a healthy us economy. In my mind it makes no diff. As when too many have moved offshore they wont have a market to sell into back in the US at some point.

why is that? They'll still be collectively owned by the US citizens. Inorder to move that many coorporations over seas a hell of a lot people would have to be fired. It wouldn't ever work.

that is not to say its wrong of them to do with business what they please. It is infact their business.

So you say if cie doesnt move offshore itll die form havign to pay good wages.

i guess in some bizarr extrapolated manner you could say i said this.

I say thats almost never true... its simply more vs less profits as costs of production keep becoming lower and less relevant to actual market prices. Although eventually thatll have to give if the market keeps being undermined. Its like choosing between an inflationary vs deflationary economy.

Pax it is their right to do with their corporations what htey please. They are not slaves. They have a will of their own. Why are you so against their autonomy?

A lot of what Moore says is substantiated and with relevant refs in his books...

inaccurate references.

It doesnt need to be all true and I did get ticked about lockeed tho again not very relevant. The perception of lockeed as an arms maker was the question not what that plant actually made...

Not very relevant? Its even more evidence the man is a liar! You just openly dismiss this?!

At worse you can say hes sloppy I feel. Probly didnt bother to double some things. But many times it doesnt matter...

You are talking about him being sloppy? He deliberately like you Pax. Jesus fxcking christ! This isn't some innocent mistake. This fabrication could have ended his career. More evidence Moore is arrogant and a liar.

This is a common thing however.

Yes, Moore lies quite often. So much so he wavers on being a pysch for the pysch friends family network.

Such as the recent findings that even in the US military aaccounting of wmds is very sloppy with lots of stuff dissapearing if only for a time from records. Youd think wed have heard about that before the war.

So because one is acceptable the other should be? You will support Moore's admitedly spurious claims while rejecting the Bush Admin's war effort because of "sloppy" record keeping?

Pax you are justifying a lie with what you believe to be a lie.

Your just plainly wrong when you say all facts are wrong and Ive cited some facts that are true jsut as example.

You haven't posted anything that is fact. What you have posted are irrelevant issues mainly subject to the whims of your opinion.

Your reasoning is the most blantantly ridiculous. You proport that do to the fact Moore states some facts that his over all claims are true though most of his supporting evidence is fabricated. What you call facts are his conclusions. Conclusions draw from fabricated evidence. In other words pax you believe what you want to believe inspite of the moutning evidence against your belief.

I browsed SWM last nite again... its full of verifiable facts.

Please list them in such a way they back Moore's claims.

Many Ive read in history books. That Moore puts aspin on them is maybe not always true but you cant juist say his facts are also all lies... You'll have to find a pretty naive person to eat that one.

Not all that you read is true pax. see above.

Im not surprised gm went to mexico. Id have had a better trade deal tho. Tho thats not necessary now we dont have a free trade deal with China and they are still going there

and i am not surprised you are against corperate autonomy.

I know people would have prefered making shoes at 10$ an hour over flippin bugers at min wage. And probly prefered it to unemployment at zero wage. I know people who work in such factories NOW why wouldnt they want to work in those??? This is very tenous an arguement legion as it was for the NIKE ceo ... That Moore couldnt find large crowds of people
in flint (as they had probably moved on by then) only shows Moore shouldve gone eslewhere as theres plenty of people looking for work in other towns too.

Is it some how anyone elses fault that you friend is flippin burgers? Should he receive higher wages because he is your special friend? There is no law against paying foreign labor lower wages. All you have is a rather weak emotional argument infavor or raising their wages. Something which would ultimately drive the companies out fo the foreign nations driving their GDP back down.

Glad to see you dont leave doors locked... So you live in an upper class neighborhood. Good for you.

Seriously. I am glad my parents put forth enough effort to escape the welfare and indolence of low class neighborhoods.

But why do people in detroit leave doors locked?

Gee, i don't know pax?! Do all canadians lock their doors? If so, you must live in a culture of fear

You canadians live in houses where you close your front doors. You must live in a culture of fear!

Pax this is so insipid and assnine i feel like hurting myself just listening to you and your mindless rantings.

Does detroit represent america? No pax. DO those people live in fear because they lock their doors or do they lock their doors for security reasons other than fear? Could they do it out of habit? Jesus pax. Can you not see your "evidence" supports numerous conclusions?! But to you there is only one, only one.

Does shutting your door indicate your are in fear? Hmm? ARe people who live in houses with doors open less afraid then those with doors that are closed? People with doors locked are more afraid of doors that are unlocked! What if they are partially locked? Are they partially afraid? All people who lock their car doors must be afraid too! Shit! those people who lock their lunch boxes are frightened! Those who password lock their computers are horrified! Dear God Pax! I can see the epidemic growing!!

My folks dont live in a upper class area in Montreal (east end) and they dont lock their doors. East end has had up to 20% unemployment...

Good for them. But the close their doors. So they do live in some fear.

My reasoning is backed by observation of american society over the last 20 years.

Now i feel sorry for you Pax. I can see why you have your heart set on this.

That moore came up with an idea to showcase what weve been seeing in the US from up here for so long was not a surprise to us.

the infamous us.

He showed you that many people lock their doors in the us and your equate this with living in a culture of fear? Well, i must say that i did conclude something i have known about canada for so long. That you all live in a culture of fear becaues you close your doors.

I mean seriously! Why would you close your door if you weren't scared?

It did give us some more insight and anecdotes and some laughs in the process tho... Christ I know americans who moved up here to escape the crime...

I've known people who moved her to escape the canadian medicare system.

IM not saying its armageddon down there and not all over the place... but some of your cities are really having probs...

please don't blame that on americans. blame that on those whom choose to committ crimes.

Ive never locked my door when at home. So yes its not because moore asserted this. Its because it was observed and reported as a living habit of many in us cities.

lol. So you admit he started with the conclusion and not with the evidence.

How do yo know many of these people don't close their doors because of habbit? How do you know they are afriad? Are people who close their doors live in more fear then those who live with their doors open? What about windows? WHy not live in houses of glass.......michael moore does.

Its an alien habit to me and people I know. To say its irrelevant you need to show why these habits exist if you dont agree fear of crime is the cause.

But closing your door isn't. Ergo you live in a culture of fear.

Im tired of the conomic model that says you need to export your own econoy to toher countries so they export back to your what you made even tho they cant affrod to buy what they make from their own incomes.

Do you think these companies would be involved with those countries if they had to pay them equal wages?

I am tired of people acting as though they deserve something for being poor.

Jesus, the average steel worker doesn't make enough money to afford a Mercedes. Guess mercedes ought to raise its workers salaries.

Mexico needed investment to make things for mexicans. The best eocnomcies didint dtart off as export economies. They started off as protected BUT democratic which lacked in mexico.

WHo's fault is this? Why is it corporations responsibility to fix these problems? Perhaps we'd ought to help by providing them with an education. Maybe then they wouldn't have work for cents a day and could depend on themselves to build their own economy.

Probly still lacks a lot. Doesnt matter anyway mexico is losing to china what they got from us. So if they want to have an economy they wont have a choice but to make for themselves soon.

Wow personally responsibility.

I dont support his mantra.

Yes you do. You believe the Americans live in a culture of fear.

I do agree with some of his observations.

Not because of evidence but because of prejudice. Unless of course you would like to admitt canada lives in a culture of fear do to your closing of doors.

Pretty general accusation there legion youll paint anything I agree with moore as mantra...

....i think you do a good job of showing your personal prejudice without my help Pax.

No point in Moore going on O'rielly hell be shouted down.

Great excuse for him to avoid fessing up.

O'reilly censors what he doesnt like to hear. Id like a link to Rogers responses.

I have provided you a resource you can find his reponse. You can also look up Larry Elder and his interview with the author of hardylaw.

Moore censors what he doesn't like to hear. How is he any different.

[quort]I dotnthink the court analogy is valid... and no I dont think appealing is always indicator of guilt but it can be...[/quote]

Pax you are being willfully obtuse. You emmediately assume guilt when there is no appeal.

here are more links concerning your allowance for his fraudulant claims


http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/scarymedia.htm

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2003_08_31_archive.html#10624779059990811

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1209/059.html?_requestid=2372&_requestid=6287

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/main/cond.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30521

Does the GM ceo need permission to print that interview? Ive googled for about 20 min and found squat...

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_&_Me


I will get you some more. I emailed Larry Elder asking for some information from him.

I dont trust gov anymore than corporations. Size usually indicates to me how much trust something deserves.

Yet you believe in the canadian medicare system....

You have few facts and couldnt rebutt the exmaples I used.

No. You examples have been refuted and your position is infuriatingly stupid. The mere fact that he has told some truth doesn't lend credence to this claims. Much of what he told the truth about was his own opinion. An opinion you share. I have demonstrated his opinion to be based on fiction and lies yet you refuse to see this.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/scarymedia.htm

Much of your links are editorials and nit picking. Ive read a few of those since last winter. Who cares awhat lockeed makes in the town? So the cartoon misrepresents the NRA. Again not really relevant as the NRA isnt exposed by the movie. Its shown as irrelevant to the problem at hand which is gun deaths. Canada has as many guns but we dont shoot each other. And yes we have a lrage clack pop and other minorities so its not ethnic.

Not true infact my articles not only show that moore lied, but how he lied, why he lied and that moore refuses to take interviewers from nonleftists.

You do shoot each other Pax. Stop exaggerating. You have a larger black population sharing the same cultural aspects of america? Bullshit. That is simply nonsense pax. I love it how you are so prone to make these statements yet you refuse to back a single one of them up.

But the history of slavery and oppression and now fear of crime from medis outlets diging up every little murder for the 6 ocolock news are valid reason tyo think the us is abit more afraid of some of its citizens black or not... than other nations. This is ideology? Its observed fact...

This is demonstratable nonsense. Everything you consider evidence can be considered evidence for multiply view points. You haven't provide a single shread of evidence for any of what moore has said. You only parrot his conclusions.

I have givewn you a reason why your point of vue is innacurate. You generalize completely about moore instead of discerning where fact and fiction meet. That very stance is fallacious. Moore ia public figure. The idea he could tell ALL LIES and get away with it is ridiculous.

And i have grown tired of your bullshit! You haven't proven a damn thing he has said and yet you claim some of it is fact. Of course only the things YOU agree with. This is an excersive in your own damned bias Pax. Your depth of illogical reasoning is profound!

Its you who denies grey areas... take moore point by point in columbine and then tell me what is true... Ive seen pages that do it and admit a lot of it is true and a lot editorialized and in fact quite afew lies (tho I tend to see more editorializing).

I can easily turn this on you! How do you know that what Moore has presented is not infact evidence for a different opinion?

You however only see lies... thats an absurd stance...

And no Ive accepted observations by right wing editorials that I thought were full of lies but had accruate facts.... and vice versa...

How can you go on and on with your support of this man inspite of his lies? Are you so blind?

Moore didint lie about his question in columbine nor about the some fo the answers he feels hes found that many ahd already observed.

WHich question?! He lied about so much i just can't remember which incident.

And he also says its not a complete answer. So ireally dont see why such nit picking about lockeed's missiles nearbby makes any diff whether they are nuclear or sat launching ... Most of the facts he says in columbine are true... Ive checked em and even web pages that denoucne Moore dont take on all his assertions that he uses to argue his answer... Your quite a bit to the right of many conservative pages there legion...

Please continue to be vague and avoid real conversation you ignorant bigott.

 

[Legion]

What statistical accuracy? We're talking about gun death in the US vs the rest of the civilised world. I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring ethnicity into this.

Because ethnicity, urbanization, supply, etc play into this...

Those ethnic groups you seek to differentiate between are all US citizens. This is particularly baffling when there are so far more obvious reasons to account for the differences in violent crime rates - private gun ownership yes or no being first and foremost of course.

It shouldn't be baffling at all. subcultur influence doesn't represent america as a whole. To suggest americans are some how violent is a completely absurd notion especially in the light of the fact that particular ethnic groups committ vastly dispropotionate amounts of violent crimes. These groups are minorities. Infact the african american male makes up for less than 10% of the US populace but committs vastly more violent crime then whites, latinos, asians, jews, etc. I would hardly say that represents america as a whole. If you merely wished to compare figures fine. But don't blame americans for the fault of the criminal aspects of a minority who committ disproportionately more crime.

I fail to see how that is obvious. Socio-economic reasons seem more likely to account for such disproportions.

That has always been an easy of dodging the obvious. Money doesn't dictate morality These people made bad choices and i feel to see how economic reasons play a factor in the majority of violent crimes especially those ending in deaths.

I don't see economic reasons as an excuse for such behavior.

What are you trying to say here? America is not a fearful place? Or at least in those areas where there are no african americans?

Don't make me out to be a racist Florin and also don't start these statements with an idiotic premise. Never did i claim america was without fear. No nation is without fear. My original comments were directed at Moore's fallacious reasoning supporting his culture of fear mantra.

You know, I really couldn't speak for their sentiments or those of Americans on the whole. I'd say that judging from the way you stress the race issue it would appear that perhaps Mr. Moore does have a point there somehow.

Why is that? American culture is not a culture shared throughout its people. To refer to American culture as one singular entity doesn't come close to accurately descbring its facets. We are a collection of many cultures some many of whom intermingle many of whom do not. So many seem not to understand this. The cultural differences in america are profound. Not everyone acts the same way and not everyone
shares the same beliefs, background, etc as another ethnic group.

For Moore arfican american culture fits the mold of his discourse yet he refuses to igknowledge fact. Instead he blames white america in his book Stupid White People for all negative behaviors manifest in african americans today.

Perhaps you didn't know where i was coming from on this. I was simply arguing another one his logical fallacies of displacement of blame. I wasn't quite sure if you were addressing my reference to SWM.

The World Health Organization has recommendations on classification of deaths. But if you feel a US national organization like the feds is more likely to provide reliable information, fine. It doesn't matter much.

Why would the feds be less accurate? Are you suggestin they are misrepresenting murders? Again what are the WHO's figures based on?

This discrepancy is only mildly interesting because even if you accept the figure of 8300, your claim that those numbers are comparable to those in European countries is completely off.

I find that hard to imagine if you compare like ethnic groups,

on top of this many of these nations are not as urbanized as the US. The popullations are also vastly different. Obviously immediately comparing number to number you will find that america has a higher number of deaths. Even if it had the same rate there would be a higher number of deaths.

Exactly what are you trying to prove here?

Why do you have a problem with comparing europeans as a culture to the similiar ethnic backgrounds from american? How would comparing ethnic groups and backgrounds not present in europe work for accurate comparison? They are diferent in culture to the point of lacking comparison.

 

[pax]

It was their property. Why, agian, did they deserve to have it destroyed?


OMG did u even read SWM? Those plants made trucks for the fucking nazis during the war. They HAD to be destroyed! How can you defend GM here? Arent you jewish???

Im not gonna respond to the rest... Its getting too long. Read SWM and let me know. Plus we are just moslty regurgitating responses here...

 

[Legion]

OMG did u even read SWM? Those plants made trucks for the fucking nazis during the war. They HAD to be destroyed! How can you defend GM here? Arent you jewish???

Jesus fucking christ Pax can you be any more igorant. Should we have blown the shit out of ever Mercedes and other german factories too? SHould we have given them the big FUCK YOU to the marshal plan out of vengence? Its the same reasoning! They needed to be destroyed.

Do not bring my background into this pax. I am not fucking brining yourself and your lack of openness concerning french collaboration with Nazi germany either. WHy? Because its not relevant.

They're building was destroyed. Many years have passed. They wanted some many back to build and invest in themselves. Jesus pax. Do you think they were some Nazi supporting jew killers? I find it funny you bring that up but have such a strong opinion in support about our jew killing palistinian friends.

People change Pax! Who are you to pass judgement on the whole the GM corporation for something that happened over 20 years ago from the law suit.

Yes i agree a law suit was a bit ridiculous and unecessary and no i am not in denial of GM's past shitiness as a company. Everybody know how crappy their cars were. Union troubles were the cause of a lot of that.

But no i can't accept that they are bunch of nazi sympathizers in the 60s or for that matter Roger Smith was the cause of Flints downfall.

I blame that on troubled competition caused by bad labor, over all lack of buying influence over japanese car companies etc. Moore didn't even bother to actually research why GM was closing the plant. It wasn't very productive. WHy else would they have closed it? Because they hate the people in flint? thats ridiculous.

Im not gonna respond to the rest... Its getting too long. Read SWM and let me know. Plus we are just moslty regurgitating responses here...[/quote]

 

[Legion]

here is more from your SWM

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/larryelder/printle20030116.shtml

Is filmmaker Michael Moore a bigot?

America's alleged excessive gun ownership results from an inordinate, unfair and implicitly racist fear of blacks.

Michael Moore, producer of the anti-gun documentary, "Bowling For Columbine," so argued in his appearance late last year on The Oprah Winfrey Show. To Winfrey's in-studio, attentive, predominantly white female audience, Moore intoned, "What I feel is so sad about this, Oprah, is that we're at a point where it's almost like a mental illness with us, a collective mental illness, that we see a black person and we suddenly get afraid. Those of us who are white, ask yourself, who do you think it is that might harm you if you walk out of here at night? Is it little freckle-faced Jimmy? Is that the image that pops into your head? Or is it Hakim, or Jose? You know, if we're honest, we know the answer to that question." Really.

People who keep guns at home, maintains Moore, do so for fear of blacks, rather than for self-protection, irrespective of the race of the bad guy. OK, let's play that game. Let's assume whites do, in fact, fear "black perpetrated crime" more than "white perpetrated crime." Is that really irrational, if not racist? Just how often do blacks victimize whites?

Twenty-five percent of young black men possess criminal records, according to government studies, either in jail, on parole or on probation. For the most part, murder victims are killed by a member of their same race. But, although blacks comprise only 12 percent of the population, economist and columnist Walter Williams writes, "According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, blacks commit 54 percent of murders, 42 percent of forcible rapes, 59 percent of robberies and 38 percent of aggravated assaults . . . In the case of interracial violent crime, blacks are 50 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than whites against blacks."

Williams also notes, "Since 1972, the U.S. Department of Justice has conducted a National Crime Victimization Survey to determine the frequency of certain crimes. One category is interracial crimes. Its most recent publication (1997), 'Criminal Victimization in the U.S.,' reports on data collected in 1994. In that year, there were about 1,700,000 interracial crimes, of which 1,276,030 involved whites and blacks. In 90 percent of the cases, a white was the victim and a black was the perpetrator, while in 10 percent of the cases it was the reverse." For the year 2000, according to the National Crime Victimization Survey, blacks committed over 1.5 million violent crimes in 2000, with half of those involving white victims.

Now get this. Incredibly, Moore, in another setting, suggested people should fear blacks.

The "documentary" maker, late last year, gave a series of talks in England, where he discussed "Bowling" while offering his views on America, crime and guns. Columnist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown of The Independent (UK), wrote, "I took my son to see Michael Moore live at the Roundhouse, in North London, before Christmas. The U.S. radical and author of the best-selling book 'Stupid White Men' was (mostly) clever, funny, angry, sharp, iconoclastic and skeptical about the lies and humbug processed by the U.S. government and big business . . . What we did not expect was to feel so enraged at one point that we almost walked out. It was when Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody . . . "

Moore, on the one hand, criticizes the Oprah audience for their alleged unfair and irrational fear of blacks. But then he flips, and celebrates this alleged perception of black aggressiveness -- wishing more blacks had been on the Sept. 11 hijacked planes -- and chastises weak-kneed whites for their passivity successfully exploited by the Sept. 11 hijackers. Tell that to the widow of Flight 93's Todd Beamer and the other heroic passengers who stopped that plane from its likely Washington, D.C., destination.

Not that Moore cares, but it was America's gun-control movement that sprouted from racist soil. Infamous Chief Justice Roger Taney, of Dred Scott fame, wrote that if blacks were "entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens . . . (i)t would give persons of the (N)egro race, who were recognized as citizens in any one state of the union, the right . . . to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the state . . . "

Meanwhile, Moore's "Bowling" recently received an award for best documentary of all time from the International Documentary Association, despite the film's deceit, half-truths and distortions.

There are lies, damn lies, and the insufferable Michael Moore.

 

[Legion]

Moore the loon

http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

 

[pax]

JH fucking christ legion... those factories were blown DURING the damn war along with the other german factories... YES they had to be blown to degrade the german war machine for fucks sake...

You didnt read SWM... probly browsed it at best...

So if GM were suing today your be pissed but its ok they did in the 60's?

You can bring bring french collabs all you want. It happened as there were sympathzers in all countreis at the time wiht the nazis... but on topic of moores book it was about GM and not vichy france. I can stay on topic can you?

 

[pax]

The one link you gave about roger smiths edited interview indeed mentionned what I thought it would... claims of lack of competitivity lower profits... thing is there still many car plants in the us and canada as well from japan... are they uncompetitive with the mexican plants?

 

[pax]

Moore the loon

http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

'
I agree with those criticisms. Moore isnt perfect but he still gets some good points across... Could someone have done a better job of being the Rush Limbaugh of the left? Probably. I hope Franken will...

 

[RussSchultz]

Moore the loon

http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

'
I agree with those criticisms. Moore isnt perfect but he still gets some good points across... Could someone have done a better job of being the Rush Limbaugh of the left? Probably. I hope Franken will...

Why is it all political demogogues are short, fat and stupid?

Hrm...that leaves Coulter out. I'll have to work to formulate another generalization.

 

[Gubbi]

Moore the loon

http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

'
I agree with those criticisms. Moore isnt perfect but he still gets some good points across... Could someone have done a better job of being the Rush Limbaugh of the left? Probably. I hope Franken will...

Franken is several times smarter than Moore. He doesn't talk in slogans or paroles like Moore does, but rather delivers his points with humour, making it sting all the more.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[Clashman]

Moore the loon

http://www.salon.com/june97/media/media970606.html

'
I agree with those criticisms. Moore isnt perfect but he still gets some good points across... Could someone have done a better job of being the Rush Limbaugh of the left? Probably. I hope Franken will...

Why is it all political demogogues are short, fat and stupid?

Hrm...that leaves Coulter out. I'll have to work to formulate another generalization.

http://www.anncoulter.com/images/webimages/062402closeup.jpg

But check out that schnoze! Yikes!