Health, Food and Exercise thread

[DuckThor Evil]

It is what the majority of the world manages to live perfectly healthy on ... or to pick heart disease as the great discriminator again, it works for the Japanese.

From a WHI perspective anecdotal testimony from some dieting rich guys in the western world isn't really enough to start recommending a diet which if actually implemented world wide would mean an instant explosion of the acreage necessary for food production. Especially when the health benefits are so very ethereal compared to just eating healthy and not getting overweight.

Their dietary recommendations are not aimed at getting people to lose weight.

You should read the vegetarian myth, first 14 pages are behind the link.

http://lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

Grass fed animal growing is sustainable, agriculture isn't. You don't need to be rich to eat low carb. Your view about the Japanese is extremely simplistic, white rice is not problematic. You have a point about keeping the calories in check.

 

[MfA]

Grass fed animal growing is sustainable, agriculture isn't.

That's besides the point ... to increase meat consumption you will still need to increase acreage.

The human population is unsustainable with current acreage with sustainable farming period, even with an agrarian diet ... artificial fertilizers and pesticides are a necessity.

PS. if rice as the staple part of the diet is not inherently problematic why is the low fat (compared to low carb) recommendation inherently problematic?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

That's besides the point ... to increase meat consumption you will still need to increase acreage.

The human population is unsustainable with current acreage with sustainable farming period, even with an diet ... artificial fertilizers and pesticides are a necessity.

PS. if rice as the staple part of the diet is not inherently problematic why is the low fat (compared to low carb) recommendation inherently problematic?

The meat consumption wouldn't need to go up that much, mostly it would substitute carbs for fat. In the US for example there is plenty of land anyway and grass fed animals with us eating them sustain the ecosystem. Farming vegetables also don't overconsume the land, like farming grains and corn does. I'm not trying to create a solution to for example China or India. Rice is a good solution for them.

There are plenty of opinions about this and mine is just one. I basically don't have an issue with balanced 40/30/30 diet, especially when it's done to maintain weight and is not filled with fructose. Rice and peeled potatoes are fine and if you eat at the level of consumption with regular periods between meals, you're not going to have problems just because of carbs. I don't think it's optimal for us, but not very problematic either. There are more things in this issue though. I have more issues with grains, especially the wholemeal ones.

Grains and many other plant foods don't really like to be eaten. They have natural defences and are basically having a warfare against the eaters. Your body has to fight against the antinutrients these foods have in them. Over long period of time that fighting is going to lead into issues within your body. Basically you want to eat food, whether animal or plant based that is defenseless when dead, grains and wholemeal rice are not defenseless. Animals are mostly defenseless when dead, their defense budget usually is spent on fighting/running/hiding/size abilities and benefit them while they are still alive. Rice has its defense in the shell. Japanese pretty much only eat white "peeled" and defenseless rice

It's also easier to go wrong with carbs, especially in the modern supermarket.

 

[WhiningKhan]

That's besides the point ... to increase meat consumption you will still need to increase acreage.

The human population is unsustainable with current acreage with sustainable farming period, even with an agrarian diet ... artificial fertilizers and pesticides are a necessity.

I used to believe that, not anymore. The recent United Nations report is also suggesting otherwise.

PS. if rice as the staple part of the diet is not inherently problematic why is the low fat (compared to low carb) recommendation inherently problematic?

It is inherently problematic in our culture. A large part of the high-carbohydrate stuff we eat in western countries causes increases in inflammation levels, adverse effects in serum apolipoprotein profile, intestinal problems, immune system issues, etc.etc. Plus, for weight loss, experience of a lot of people is that low fat is more difficult to handle than low carb. Most officials are still recommending low fat for both weight loss and for sustaining your weight.

You said it is not realistic for the whole world to start eating like a few rich western guys. Of course it isn't. Are you claiming it is realistic to make the whole world into one big Japan, with their food tradition, culture - and their genetics? Anyway, this is a personal health thread. Let's save ourselves before trying to save the world, we don't want this thread RPSC'd.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I used to believe that, not anymore. The recent United Nations report is also suggesting otherwise.

That's a great article. I liked this part especially:

Of 57 impoverished countries surveyed, for example, yields had increased by an average of nearly 80 percent when farmers used methods such as placing weed-eating ducks in rice patties in Bangladesh

[size=-2]I've been looking for an excuse to post that for a long time hehe[/size]

 

[MfA]

It is inherently problematic in our culture. A large part of the high-carbohydrate stuff we eat in western countries causes increases in inflammation levels, adverse effects in serum apolipoprotein profile, intestinal problems, immune system issues, etc.etc.

It's not like we are not recommended to eat more beans, more whole weat grains etc. etc.

The way we get carbohydrates is a choice, it seems to me rather optimistic to think that lazy people with no interest in the origin of their food or it's preparation will start eating healthy depending on macronutrient percentages. America and it's sensitivity to fads will be an interesting test tube though in this regard. Lets see if you do better than Europe in the coming years.

PS. Bangladesh is still a food deficit country ... it's nice that they can increase their yields, but at the end of the day they still depend on imports from the countries with unsustainable agriculture.

 

[WhiningKhan]

It's not like we are not recommended to eat more beans, more whole weat grains etc. etc.

The way we get carbohydrates is a choice, it seems to me rather optimistic to think that lazy people with no interest in the origin of their food or it's preparation will start eating healthy depending on macronutrient percentages.

That is very true - motivation can't be forced on people. Still, the advice the officials give is not optimal, not fully backed up by research, and for some people, difficult to follow even if they try. Clearly, the officials have failed in the attempt to improve people's health. There are signs though that they are starting to acknowledge existence of potentially better alternatives.

Your original point was that capitalism is to blame for low fat craze, not the officials. I agree that capitalism amplified the message, but the message did come originally from the officials.

America and it's sensitivity to fads will be an interesting test tube though in this regard. Lets see if you do better than Europe in the coming years.

Both I and Dr.Evil are actually from Finland. Funny, I thought you were american...

PS. Bangladesh is still a food deficit country ... it's nice that they can increase their yields, but at the end of the day they still depend on imports from the countries with unsustainable agriculture.

Yes, and the sad thing is that adopting sustainable farming seems quite unlikely to happen in large scale in the rich countries, as it would probably still mean short-term financial losses for them. Let's hope the poor countries at least go straight in the correct direction for self-sustainability, because if we hit the wall, they are the ones that would suffer the most. It would only serve us right to get to pay for the mess our own greed has created, but the poor have their life on the line.

 

[Moloch]

I've lost about 30 pounds since December by goining, and sticking with a quasi low carb diet, I eat complex carbs every day (most of them come from my bowl of oatmeal) and the rest from green beans and peanuts and sunflower seeds. I eat a ton of meat and eggs btw, the other day I figured out that I eat about 1600-1800 calories a day. I have 1-2 cheat days a week where I eat whatever I want, tonight I demolished a whole frozen pizza, some 2000~ calories, it was hard though. For a while I thought my energy levels had fallen dramatically from the diet because for the last month or so I've been waking up tired and yawning all the time and coffee doesn't do crap for me, but for the last week my energy level has soared(and coffee gives me the jitters again), to the point where I feel like I'm going to jump out of my skin, realllly hyper in other words.
The thing I think is important with any diet (low fat/low cal/low calories) is to make sure you get plenty of protein so you don't into a state of catabolism, where your body uses your lean muscle tissues for fuel since you're running calorie deficientsm also having a cheat day or two is good.
I weigh 165 btw, 6 foot tall, I need to do some more pushups though, my ribs are visible now

 

[DuckThor Evil]

It's not like we are not recommended to eat more beans, more whole weat grains etc. etc.

Yeah and that's a big problem. Whole weat grains are problematic, they put a lot of stress to your digestive system, and over time can create lot's of problems for you (yeah this is against the official line). It seems that there is a lot of variation how different people tolerate different grains, I think I tolerate them pretty well, but I'm still going to avoid most of them for good. I get enough fiber without them, too much fiber is not good.

If you want to eat bread, fermented sourdough breads are the way to go.
http://earthstar.newlibertyvillage.com/fermentedbreads.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_starter

I've lost about 30 pounds since December.

I weigh 165 btw, 6 foot tall, I need to do some more pushups though, my ribs are visible now

Nice going! Did you do some form of exercise, or just the diet? Did the weight come off slowly during that time or was there periods where the weight loss was more rapid?

 

[MfA]

Yeah and that's a big problem. Whole weat grains are problematic, they put a lot of stress to your digestive system

Going to have to ask you to make this plausible ...

If you want to eat bread, fermented sourdough breads are the way to go.

Saying fermented is unnecessary ... unleavened is the exception, fermentation is the rule.

Again, you're going to have to make this plausible (and you were talking about stress on the digestive system, so lets leave glycemic effects out of it).

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Gluten is the main problem as far as I know, a certain kind of protein which humans can't digest well. It can go through the membranes of the entails or something, google it if you're interested.
Personally I think that grain based stuff isn't recommended anyway, just because you cang et bread without gluten you still shouldn't eat any grain and get vegetables instead.

At least that's the theory but still, in practice I have eaten only very little bread in the past 1-2 months (most traditional hungarian foods really need good, white bread and I had a few of such meals).

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Going to have to ask you to make this plausible ...

It would be best if try to get hold of some of the material I posted in this thread, like the book Paleo solution by Robb Wolf, they have explained these things better than I can. I've written a lot about the defense mechanisms of these plants already and all of them pretty much exist in the bran/germ of the grain. The antinutrients prevents the absorption of the good nutrients. the insoluble fiber and some of the proteins in grains irritate the gut and causes inflammation, autoimmune diseases etc. In no shape or form are whole wheat grains healthy.

The fact it makes your poo soft and make you feel like it goes out easily is because your body want's to get rid of it as fast and painless as possible. Grains don't want to be eaten unlike fruits and berries and they fight against you. your body regognizes this and counter attacks the grain, the problem is that some proteins in these grains are similar to our own and that can lead your immune system to attack yourself in small or large scale. There are other issues aswell. On overall the situation is very complex and if you are interested in this I really suggest you get hold of some of the material I already posted. Borrow from library if you don't want to pay for it.

I'm sorry, but at this point I can't make a better case. I don't know if this is convincing or not, but it's explained a lot better in some of those books and presentations.

 

[tangey]

I think in 2-3 pages, this thread sums up the the confusion felt by joe public. Here am I coming onto this thread to find out what I should sensibly be doing to lose weight and feel a bit healthier, and a lot of what are clearly quite intelligent folks, have a range of diverse and in some cases totally opposing ideas about whats right and wrong.

Of course once you've lived a certain age you come to the conclusion that for most things, nothing is ever totally right or totally wrong, but still it does make it hard for someone who just wants to know what reasonably they should be doing

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I think in 2-3 pages, this thread sums up the the confusion felt by joe public. Here am I coming onto this thread to find out what I should sensibly be doing to lose weight and feel a bit healthier, and a lot of what are clearly quite intelligent folks, have a range of diverse and in some cases totally opposing ideas about whats right and wrong.

Still at first page on my settings Perhaps you can look at it this way. Eat mostly what we ate during the long period of our evolution before the modern agriculture came about and made us weak and ridden with decease. We used to be strong and healthy, albeit high mortality due to hazardous conditions.

I don't agree with this 100%, but it's not far off (Multiple parts, but the first part is the best)

 

[MfA]

It would be best if try to get hold of some of the material I posted in this thread, like the book Paleo solution by Robb Wolf

I meant something a little more scientific.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Hmmm. I've been thinking about this thread. I get up at 5am and drink the better part of a pot of coffee with heavy cream/sugar until about 8:30am when the kids are gone, relax for about 1/2 hour then sleep for 2-3 hours. Get up, have about 6 cokes until it's time to make dinner for everyone. I'll eat for the first time of the day then. (Around 5-6, unless it's my wife's late week in which case it's 11pm-ish) Usually I'll have a late night snack around midnight before retiring.

Looking at it written down like that it doesn't look all that healthy.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I meant something a little more scientific.

The book has fairly indepth science portion with references. I also have the PDF slides Mat Lalonde uses in his seminars. I can e-mail them to you if you PM me your address. It's in six parts and about 300 pages in total. The video is pretty hard to get, unless you want to pay 49$ :smile:

Looking at it written down like that it doesn't look all that healthy.

Yep and with the issues you've had, I'd really recommend you to clean up atleast some of that. Six Cokes already is atleast few too many.

 

[MfA]

Just give me the citations for whatever research he referenced.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Looking at it written down like that it doesn't look all that healthy.

You'll be surprised to know that there are several schools advocating this approach, I think it's sometimes called intermittent fasting, and there's the warrior diet AFAIK, too. Neither of them likes coca-cola, though


And by the way I don't think it's that hard to know how to eat well and keep a good average weight. Just get rid of stuff made from grain, rice, potatoes, sugar, junk food and soft drinks and the like - only eat lean meat and cheese, fish, eggs, nuts, fruit, and all the vegetables you can get, and only drink water most of the time. The excess will be lost quickly if you're reasonable with the nuts and the leanness of the meat, it's hard to get fat on anything else from the above.

The hard part is to keep to that diet, IMHO.
It's surprisingly difficult and expensive to get meals using only those elements (okay, sushi also counts and it's not that expensive), it takes considerable time to buy all ingredients and prepare your own food, and it's far too easy to chose the simple solutions, especially if you're used to go out and have lunch with friends or co-workers.

 

[Squilliam]

it's far too easy to chose the simple solutions, especially if you're used to go out and have lunch with friends or co-workers.

Surely then the salad counts as a good choice? It isn't hard to find a salad when you go out.