HDTV 720p vs 1080p (Questions about games)

[London Geezer]

A 6MP camera is way better b/c you can take a portion of the picture and just use it for a print. With a digital camera the more MP the better always b/c it allows more manipulation after the fact. 2x pixels is similar to 2x optical zoom, so yes an optical zoom would be nice, but if the optical zoom is the same then I would always prefer more pixels so I can get the thing I took a picture of that was too far away

TVs you don't need to use this way so the more pixels does not equate to a similarly important feature IMO. In TVs it is nice in cameras it is essential.

It's not really that easy. Some of these camera with silly quoted Mpixel figures can get very grainy the higher the Mpixel setting goes. unless they're good cameras, in which case it really is still about "good pixels" and not necessarily "more pixels"

 

[pcchen]

It's not really that easy. Some of these camera with silly quoted Mpixel figures can get very grainy the higher the Mpixel setting goes. unless they're good cameras, in which case it really is still about "good pixels" and not necessarily "more pixels"

Yes. Actually, the size of pixels is the key. Having a 1/3" 6MP CCD is quite worse than having a 1/1.8" 4MP CCD, as the noise level would be much higher.

 

[Sxotty]

Yes. Actually, the size of pixels is the key. Having a 1/3" 6MP CCD is quite worse than having a 1/1.8" 4MP CCD, as the noise level would be much higher.

Not necessarily it still depends on the optics.

If the optics are identical, the bigger CCD might be nicer, but the same size CCD with more MP is still better. All things equal more MP is better in a camera unless you simply want to argue for cost/performance or something. A 4MP camera is woefully inadequate IMO. I would rather have a nice 12MP SLR personally.

 

[London Geezer]

A 4MP camera is woefully inadequate IMO. I would rather have a nice 12MP SLR personally.

Well yeah of course, but everything else being equal, when you look at these pocket-size cameras (and even the not-so-pocket size ones!), today you get those ridiculous 10MP ones which at highest setting produce very noisy pictures sometimes.

As you said, it depends on the optics, like it depends on the ability of the camera of taking good shots in low light situations and a lot of other factors, and not necessarily on the resolution, which was my initial point that it's about a lot more than resolution

 

[ADEX]

Well yeah of course, but everything else being equal, when you look at these pocket-size cameras (and even the not-so-pocket size ones!), today you get those ridiculous 10MP ones which at highest setting produce very noisy pictures sometimes.

Indeed, the number of pixels is only one factor. The optics, processing and compression are equally if not more important.

Also the size and quality of the sensor matter, an SLR with a full frame sensor will cost $3000+ but the images are going to be fantastic.

As you said, it depends on the optics, like it depends on the ability of the camera of taking good shots in low light situations and a lot of other factors, and not necessarily on the resolution, which was my initial point that it's about a lot more than resolution

PC screen resolution is measured by pixels. TV screens are measured using a formula (no, that doesn't make any sense to me either but that's the way the industry does it).

 

[pcchen]

A 4MP camera is woefully inadequate IMO. I would rather have a nice 12MP SLR personally.

That would be dependent on what you want to use your photo. For me, a 4MP picture is good enough for a 11" print. If you need to shoot for a full page magazine or a poster, of course 4MP is not enough. 12MP may not be enough either, you may want to use a 645 camera.

 

[Geo]

Had 3 hours in a Circuit City on Saturday, waiting for my wife's SUV to get a CD changer installed. So I had some time to kill, and checked out the newest TVs. I must say, I was massively unimpressed with 1080p vs 720p from what I could see on display. But then that was 1080i broadcast stuff. I literally could not see a difference.

They didn't have any HD-DVD/BRD stuff there being outpu tho, so maybe it would have been more apparent on that in a side-by-side comparison.

 

[RobertR1]

Had 3 hours in a Circuit City on Saturday, waiting for my wife's SUV to get a CD changer installed. So I had some time to kill, and checked out the newest TVs. I must say, I was massively unimpressed with 1080p vs 720p from what I could see on display. But then that was 1080i broadcast stuff. I literally could not see a difference.

They didn't have any HD-DVD/BRD stuff there being outpu tho, so maybe it would have been more apparent on that in a side-by-side comparison.

As I said, depending on your viewing distance, it's not a drastic change. It's more of a marketing push than anything. Ofcourse it's the future and it'll be nice to have but it's actual benefits are grossly exaggerated.

Also, don't expect broadcast at 1080p anytime soon esp. considering majority of the TV time is spent watching broadcast. The only 1080P source will be HD DVD/BR movies and games.

 

[Sxotty]

As I said, depending on your viewing distance, it's not a drastic change. It's more of a marketing push than anything. Ofcourse it's the future and it'll be nice to have but it's actual benefits are grossly exaggerated.

Also, don't expect broadcast at 1080p anytime soon esp. considering majority of the TV time is spent watching broadcast. The only 1080P source will be HD DVD/BR movies and games.

But the thread is about games

I know that I want a 1080p set when I finally make the plunge since it will be hooked to htpc and in my case the vast majority of viewing is not broadcast actually.

 

[kyleb]

Being a game doesn't chance how the display resolution effects image quality though, like the cnet.com article which SugerCoat linked mentioned; contrast ratio, color saturation and color accuracy all have more effect on picture quality. Besides, the benefit of rendering at 1080p is notable even on lower resolution displays. So if you go out shopping with the resolution if the display as your first concern you may well overlook displays that will give you a better looking image though less pixels; and that goes for games just as much as it does for everything else.

 

[pascal]

Just in case someone have missed it:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6661274-1.html?tag=ms

Test No. 2: Movie is output at 1080i
OK, this where the fun starts--let the comparisons rip. We skip from chapter to chapter, looking for shots in which we might be able to discern differences. In scenes with close-ups of Tom Cruise--and there are a lot of them--or Philip Seymour Hoffman (the villain), it's very hard to notice a difference in detail, even when you compare the relatively low-resolution Philips 42-inch plasma (1,024x768) to the 47-inch 1080p Westinghouse (1,920x1,080), which are sitting side by side. But in chapter 5, we hit on a decent piece of test material. Tom Cruise walks into a stylish home, and there, just behind him, is a wall made of what look like small, wooden bricks. Lo and behold, if you concentrate just on that wall and scan back and forth from TV to TV, replaying the scene dozens of times, you'll notice a slight difference between the Philips and the Westinghouse; the brick pattern as displayed on the Westinghouse has a cleaner look. The difference is harder to discern when you compare the Westinghouse to the 50-inch Pioneer.

...

Ultimately, we agree with the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF), a group that consults for home-theater manufacturers and trains professional video calibrators, when it says that the most important aspect of picture quality is contrast ratio, the second-most important is color saturation, and the third is color accuracy. Though resolution may be the most talked-about spec these days, it comes in fourth on the ISF list, and after you sit watching five TVs lined up side by side, you understand why. The fact is a relatively pristine high-def source such as Mission: Impossible III looks sharp on just about any HDTV, and your eye, when looking for differences, is drawn first to things like depth of detail in shadowy material (black levels) and the color of the actors' skin tone and how natural it looks.

 

[Fox5]

Eh, I wouldn't say higher resolution is 4th in terms of native 1080p material compared to 720p material, however if you just go in ratios, I'd say twice the contrast ratio is much preferable to twice the resolution, but it's also harder to achieve.

 

[London Geezer]

I'm so BORED of people downplaying 1080p, like i was of people downplaying 720p a while ago.

At the end of the day, it all depends on viewing distances and screen size. 1080p is as "pointless" as 720p is, compared to 480p, further than a certain point. There is a certain viewing distance and screen size where our eyes just can't see the difference between resolutions, be it 1080p, 720p or 480i.

The only thing our eyes will always distinguish is whether it's colour or black&white. And maybe aspects of the picture like colour accuracy and contrast, though they're hard to distinguish for most people.

Really, at the end of the day the information our brains manipulate after light has hit our retinas depends on so many variables it's ridiculous. And after that, our brain will manipulate this information differently according to who we are, so these kind of "is 1080p crap? is 720p REAL HD?" arguments are always useless.


/rant

 

[pascal]

LB
They are technicians with conclusion based on repetitive tests with current HDTV content.
I dont think they are motivated by prejudice or other not rational reason.

This may change with very high bitrate for TV content (~ 40Mbps).
This may not be the case for games.
And yes will depend on the viewing distance, etc...

Also the 1080 panel could reduce a lot the screen door effect (some background noise).

Now which one would you buy: a low contrast 1080p Samsung panel or a high contrast 720p Sony panel? :smile2:

 

[London Geezer]

Now which one would you buy: a low contrast 1080p Samsung panel or a high contrast 720p Sony panel? :smile2:

A 15000:1 Sony SXRD 1080p projector like the Pearl!

 

[pascal]

So you are being evasive, then this means you would buy the high contrast 720p TV :smile2:

 

[ANova]

My opinion on the matter is that unless you sit very close to the TV or have one of each sitting next to each other you won't notice much of a difference between 720p and 1080p (and I have 20/20 vision). However, I think size matters; 720p is fine for 40" or smaller but anything bigger and 1080p would be a better idea.

 

[crazygambit]

LB
They are technicians with conclusion based on repetitive tests with current HDTV content.
I dont think they are motivated by prejudice or other not rational reason.

This may change with very high bitrate for TV content (~ 40Mbps).
This may not be the case for games.
And yes will depend on the viewing distance, etc...

Do they test games? Pretty much all the reviews I've found tell me about how HD content looks, DVDs, HD-DVSs/Bluray, SD content, etc. yet they never talk about games.

Now I'm in the market for a sub $1500 HDTV specifically for gaming. I couldn't care less about the rest. The thing is I haven't found any help online and I'm just clueless. I was thinking about a 26" 720p LCD, but after talks of ghosting and not so good black levels I'm totally clueless here. If you guys could show me some resources to get some info it'd be nice, just please, please don't send me to the AVSFORUMS I just can't make heads or tails of that place. Thanks.

 

[pascal]

crazygambit

Unfortunately we dont see reviews of LCD HDTV with games.

I dont have an LCD HDTV now (hope to buy it soon). I only have a Sony X-Black LCD monitor connected to the PC, and for casual gaming with some minimum ambient light it is very good (The room has a dimmer controlling the ambient light). See more about this monitor here: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26047

From what I saw on the stores the best LCD is the Sony 2006/2007 line of HDTVs.
My guess a good Sony 26" s-series or v-series HDTV will do it.
But is better you test yourself before you buy. Dont trust my words, trust your eyes.

 

[crazygambit]

Thanks for the answer pascal. I hope a gaming site like Gamespot or IGN do HDTV reviews specifically for games. It would be a big help for the holidays. If anyone sees a site doing something like that please let me know.