HDTV 720p vs 1080p (Questions about games)

[Metalmurphy]

I've been reading in alot of forums that the diference between 720p and 1080p isn't that great unless you have a REALLY BIG HDTV. But somehow this doesn't make sense to me. I mean, take PC monitors for example, they're very small monitors yet i notice a BIG diference between 1280x1024 and 1600x1200, and 1080p is even bigger then that. I understand that maybe in movies the diference might be really small, but in games the diference should be huge right? Since its actually 3D rendering at an higher resolution and not just a movie.


Can anyone enlighten me a bit on this issue?


At first i didnt care much couse i thought 1080p was just rumors but it seems more and more games are beeeing annouced as native 1080p (LAIR for PS3 beeing the latest one and its looking BADASS ).


Thanks in advanced.

 

[RobertR1]

I've been reading in alot of forums that the diference between 720p and 1080p isn't that great unless you have a REALLY BIG HDTV. But somehow this doesn't make sense to me. I mean, take PC monitors for example, they're very small monitors yet i notice a BIG diference between 1280x1024 and 1600x1200, and 1080p is even bigger then that. I understand that maybe in movies the diference might be really small, but in games the diference should be huge right? Since its actually 3D rendering at an higher resolution and not just a movie.


Can anyone enlighten me a bit on this issue?


At first i didnt care much couse i thought 1080p was just rumors but it seems more and more games are beeeing annouced as native 1080p (LAIR for PS3 beeing the latest one and its looking BADASS ).


Thanks in advanced.

You're sitting right up close to a PC montior. With a TV, generally, you're quite far away. For example, on my 2405 (24 inch monitor), I sit 12-14inches away but for my 50inch plasma, I'm 9ft away. You can see how much the ratio of distances has increased. If I was 1.5x diagonal width of the screen away, I have much better chance of seeing the difference. At 9ft away if I had a 100ft+ projection screen, I'm more likely to see a difference in 720p and 1080p.

There is a great article of the net describing what I'm talking about. It goes into detail on how close you have to be to see results as resolution increases. I'll try to find it for you and link it.

 

[Geo]

LCDs and DLPs are "fixed pixel". It never changes. It just makes plain sense that 720 lines is going to look better on 42" than 62".

We have a 62" 720p and a 42" 720p. The 62" picture is not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but is it noticeably grainier than the 42"? Yep.

Really, I would not buy a 720p today, I don't think. But if I was, it would be for a 42" or smaller TV, not one bigger than that. But then I'm not facing that decision, as we're set for awhile.

 

[RobertR1]

Geo,

Unless they're the same model line up, it's really hard to make that judgement. I could easily show you good 720P panels that look better than cheap 1080P and vice versa.

Again, viewing distance is another factor.

 

[Geo]

Well, this is Mits DLP vs Sony LCD, actually. So it's even more complicated than that. And, yes, of course, junk is junk no matter what the specs are. But I still think the advantage of 1080 vs 720 lines becomes more noticeable as you go above 42" panels at typical viewing distances.

Hoping our 2008 TV is a 73" 1080p.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I think you guys are missing my point. I'm talking about games not movies or TV, you don't render a movie so the diference isn't big, but you can render a game at diferent resolutions, and 1080p is a way bigger resolution then 720p, this will mean less aliasing and more detail.

 

[RobertR1]

I think you guys are missing my point. I'm talking about games not movies or TV, you don't render a movie so the diference isn't big, but you can render a game at diferent resolutions, and 1080p is a way bigger resolution then 720p, this will mean less aliasing and more detail.

Again the point is the samet because the aliasing depends on the viewing distance. Goto your montior and change the resolution to 1024x768. Sit up close like normal and you'll see the aliasing amongst other lack of detail. Now stand back 5feet and tell me what you see or don't see.....the aliasing will still be present the but lack of detail will start to seem trivial.

Also remember that LCD's suck at scaling so using a CRT montior would be a good idea. I did a blind test when I had my CRT with a friend. On a 22inch CRT, from 6feet away he could not tell between 1024x768 or 1600x1200. This was using CS:S.

Don't get me wrong, I now play all of my games at 1920x1200 and use AA heavily but when I'm playing 360 games from the bed, even thought they're only 720p, they look quite impressive. If I'm standing right infront of the TV, yes, I see faults but they seemingly disappear as I move further back. Ofcourse they could still benefit from more AA but more AA is still likely less of a performance hit than native rendering at 1080P. I prefer that games be renederd at 720p using the best techniques possible for graphics and using an internal scaler to output at 1080P than natively rendering at 1080p which might take away from having features like HDR, better textures and so on.

Ofcourse, like Geo, I'll be getting a 1080P set in 2008 By then you won't have much of choice anyway.......

 

[jb]

My westy 42" does 1080p only. Everythign feed to it is upscalled and displayed at that res. I dont think you will noticed a difference much if at all juding 720 vrs 1080. I would not let gaming at that res be a factor in picking out my tv... Well I got the 1080p for other reasons but not gaming

 

[Moloch]

My westy 42" does 1080p only. Everythign feed to it is upscalled and displayed at that res.

And you expected different?

 

[jb]

And you expected different?

I dont understand your question? I dont see many artifacts thats present with typical upscaled and process images as the xbox360 puts out 720p or 1080i. I do see some off the Oppo upconversion DVD player I have. I suppose I noticed them more with the movies because I am not focused on playing the game. My point was 1080p gaming should not be the only factor in a choice....

 

[pascal]

I've been reading in alot of forums that the diference between 720p and 1080p isn't that great unless you have a REALLY BIG HDTV. But somehow this doesn't make sense to me. I mean, take PC monitors for example, they're very small monitors yet i notice a BIG diference between 1280x1024 and 1600x1200, and 1080p is even bigger then that. I understand that maybe in movies the diference might be really small, but in games the diference should be huge right? Since its actually 3D rendering at an higher resolution and not just a movie.


Can anyone enlighten me a bit on this issue?


At first i didnt care much couse i thought 1080p was just rumors but it seems more and more games are beeeing annouced as native 1080p (LAIR for PS3 beeing the latest one and its looking BADASS ).


Thanks in advanced.

Pixel Blend and Visual Acuity
For most people with a 37" LCD 1080 resolution HDTV the pixels will blend from 4.8 feet distance or more.
So no much difference between 720p or 1080i.

 

[Moloch]

I dont understand your question? I dont see many artifacts thats present with typical upscaled and process images as the xbox360 puts out 720p or 1080i. I do see some off the Oppo upconversion DVD player I have. I suppose I noticed them more with the movies because I am not focused on playing the game. My point was 1080p gaming should not be the only factor in a choice....

I dont understand your statement.
Of course it's upscaled, it has to be unless you dont want it to fit the screen.

 

[London Geezer]

Resolution has always been just one of the many factors that contribute to image quality. Always been and always will. In fact, we are already reaching a point of diminishing returns, if screen sizes stay the same.

Of course on bigger screens, higher resolution will always make things look less grainy, jaggy or blurry (depending on the scaling), but before you even worry about that there are things like contrast, brightness and black levels to worry about. Plus all motion-related issues.

 

[pascal]

IMHO with current HDTV we need is better pixels.
We need cinematographic pixels.
80 millions triangles/sec is not enough anymore. We need 800 millions triangles (Lord of the Rings ?)

My 17" LCD monitor is 25 inches from my eyes, the 720p movies are just great, and the individual pixels are hard to notice.

 

[Moloch]

IMHO with current HDTV we need is better pixels.
We need cinematographic pixels.
.

Nvidia to the rescue!

 

[SugarCoat]

Might want to read this:

According to the Imaging Science Foundation, a group that consults for home-theater maufacturers and trains professional video calibrators, the most important aspect of picture quality is contrast ratio, the second most important is color saturation, and the third is color accuracy. Resolution comes in a distant fourth

In the last couple of years, there has been a big influx of HDTVs with 1080p native resolution, which typically cost a good deal more than their lower-resolution counterparts. But as we've been saying all along, once you get to high-def, the difference between resolutions becomes much more difficult to appreciate. We've done side-by-side tests between two 50-inch rear-projection HDTVs, one with 720p resolution and the other with 1080p resolution, using the same 1080i source material, and it was extremely difficult for us to see any difference. It becomes even more difficult at smaller screen sizes or farther seating distances--say, more than 1.5 times the diagonal measurement of the screen. We've reviewed a 37-inch 1080p LCD, for example, where it was impossible to see the separation between horizontal lines at farther than 45 inches away.

We're not telling you to ignore 1080p HDTVs. They technically do deliver more detail, which can enhance the viewing experience for more eagle-eyed viewers. Also, many manufacturers build other picture-quality benefits, such as better contrast and/or color, into their 1080p HDTVs simply because those sets are the high-end models. And given the continuing march of technology, we expect more and more 1080p models to become available at lower and lower prices. Today, however, the premium for 1080p is still pretty steep, and unless you're getting a very large set, say 52 inches or more, we don't recommend basing a buying decision on whether or not the television has 1080p native resolution.

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5137915-1.html


Also keep in mind in terms of consoles 720p material may look worse on a 1080p television. In my opinion it would be very dumb to buy a TV based on the screenshots of a title or two. To be honest i dont agree with you about being able to see a huge difference in computers either. Because the size of the screen isnt scaled up like it is in TV's (say 32-40" common sizes for 720p vs 50-60" for 1080p) we have the illusion that the image just got way sharper due to more pixels on the same amount of screen. TV's on the otherhand usually have an additional 10-20" tacked on with the higher resolution. Also distance, as already mentioned, plays a huge part in it. Unless you're going to be face to face with the screen you wont notice it as easily. Theres just too much going against you to justify the cost premium.

Get a nice 720p LCD or Plasma and use the money you saved for an awesome chair

 

[pcchen]

I think people are obsessed with resolution because it's very easily quantizable. However, it's not really that important when you go after a certain point. This is sort of like, say, the resolution of digital camera. People tend to think that a 6MP camera is better than a 4MP camera, and so on, while the reality is 4MP camera is good enough for a 11" print.

 

[pascal]

Thanks for the link SugarCoat

Its is all about Visual Acuity (two links defining visual acuity):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity
http://www.tedmontgomery.com/the_eye/acuity.html

Here a viewing distance calculator: http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

The correlation for the visual acuity distance and screen diagonal size for 1080i is: distance (inch) = screen (inch) x 1.58

The algorithm to define if you need 1080 resolution is simple:
- Define the size of the screen you want
- calculate the visual acuity distance
- IF (your eyes are great) AND (you can distinguish and be annoyed by small details in the middle of a fight) AND (the viewing distance is equal or below 2/3 the visual acuity distance) THEN (buy the 1080 resolution HDTV) ELSE (save some money and get this nice 720 resolution HDTV or focus in other importants aspects of the image quality)

Many people are just used to see games very close to the screen (almost kissing it), and up to now the screen resolution is something under the control of the gamer.

 

[pascal]

Nvidia to the rescue!

Waiting my Teraflops Desktop for soon

 

[Sxotty]

I think people are obsessed with resolution because it's very easily quantizable. However, it's not really that important when you go after a certain point. This is sort of like, say, the resolution of digital camera. People tend to think that a 6MP camera is better than a 4MP camera, and so on, while the reality is 4MP camera is good enough for a 11" print.

A 6MP camera is way better b/c you can take a portion of the picture and just use it for a print. With a digital camera the more MP the better always b/c it allows more manipulation after the fact. 2x pixels is similar to 2x optical zoom, so yes an optical zoom would be nice, but if the optical zoom is the same then I would always prefer more pixels so I can get the thing I took a picture of that was too far away

TVs you don't need to use this way so the more pixels does not equate to a similarly important feature IMO. In TVs it is nice in cameras it is essential.