General Next Generation Rumors and Discussions [Post GDC 2020]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by BRiT, Mar 18, 2020.

  1. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,996
    It's fine to give an idea. Then you look at a game with a lot of smoke animation and cloud data which compress like shit, and the other company uses a futuristic first person shooter with lots of metal patterns being more compressible data. The "typical" figure of B/W for one cannot be compared with the other if the didn't use the same compression ratio as a foundation.
     
  2. BRiT

    BRiT (>• •)>⌐■-■ (⌐■-■)
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    19,438
    Likes Received:
    22,409
    Will smoke animations and cloud data actually be static? And compressed on SSD? And read over and over again? Aren't those dynamic or procedural generations? So you wouldn't be reading them off storage over and over, but have it in ram and generate from there?
     
  3. chris1515

    Legend Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    6,765
    Likes Received:
    7,372
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    Maybe better to baked the fluid simulation and render it with volumetric particle. But we had pretty rendered volumetric cloud and volumetric light this generation, probably better to continue like this.
     
    BRiT likes this.
  4. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,996
    I guess we'll have more procedural. It was just a bad example, because in VFX anything with smoke and explosions fill up hundreds of terabytes overnight... I don't really know what would become more or less compressible, maybe we will see more focus from devs to exploit higher compression ratios, considering the limited storage and bandwidh advantage.
     
    PSman1700, chris1515 and BRiT like this.
  5. jayco

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,738
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Yeah, I guess some first party games may want to optimize to achieve as much compression as possible, but I guess that above certain point there aren't any significant gains and, as you say, not all data can be compressed.
     
  6. BRiT

    BRiT (>• •)>⌐■-■ (⌐■-■)
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    19,438
    Likes Received:
    22,409
    Yeah. Like in the Spider-Man breakdown, they had tons and tons of data they had to pair down to fit on the optical disc. Those limits would still be there, somewhat.... Somewhat relieved if they compress better. Maybe a larger relief would be using UHD disc for 100 GB physical instead of trying to fit on only a 50GB disc or making the hard call to use 2 discs for installation. But that's still just a sliver of the terabytes of data they'd love to be able to leverage.

    Now that neither system has anemic CPUs like Jaguar and both have hefty GPUs, it will be interesting to see what devs come up with for their genuine next-gen engines.
     
    PSman1700 and jayco like this.
  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    13,766
    Likes Received:
    17,054
    Location:
    The North
    sounds like the tools needed to make open world monsters.
    1 world, multiple games... etc.
    heh, sounds honestly very exhausting.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  8. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    7,663
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    Location:
    Alma, AR
    On December 17, 2015 Major Nelson posted this...

    https://majornelson.com/2015/12/17/...backward-compatibility-titles-playable-today/

    I was thinking there was something more recent. If I find it I will post it.

    Tommy McClain
     
    PSman1700, jayco and BRiT like this.
  9. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    7,663
    Likes Received:
    4,667
    Location:
    Alma, AR
    Here's another one from February 27, 2018...

    https://majornelson.com/2018/02/27/...ture-come-to-xbox-one-backward-compatibility/

    EDIT:

    Another data point...



    Mike Nichols is a former Marketing Chief of Xbox.

    Phil Spencer chimed in too..



    GamesIndustry.biz did an article on June 8th 2017...

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...f-xbox-one-owners-use-backwards-compatibility

    Tommy McClain
     
    PSman1700, jayco and BRiT like this.
  10. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    13,766
    Likes Received:
    17,054
    Location:
    The North
    The hours for current gen titles being played on next gen devices will be massive.
    You can't drop the major top 10 games off the planet. All of them are MP and have huge populations.
     
  11. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    18,258
    Likes Received:
    8,617
    Along the same lines, XBSX is 6+ GB/s when using the hardware decompression block. This was stated as in what a developer would typically see and not a theoretical maximum. I view it as the minimum attainable with hardware decompression.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    PSman1700 and VitaminB6 like this.
  12. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    18,258
    Likes Received:
    8,617
    While closer to an apples to apples comparison than switching apps, it's still not quite.

    The State of Decay demonstration was the first initial loading of a stock XBO game in Backwards Compatibility mode from the game's menu. The PS3 demo was showing how quickly fast travel transitions are sped up.

    In practical terms
    • State of decay has to load everything from scratch.
      • This will include things that only happen on first initialization into a game from menu.
    • Spiderman still has some assets resident that are reused in each scene.
      • Pedestrians and vehicles.
      • Universally used textures (glass and asphalt for example).
    So basically, the takeaway is that both systems are roughly the same based on their respective SSD speeds. So in a similar fast travel like scenario the XBSX will still be slower at ~1.6-1.7 seconds.

    However, this likely represents the worst case for both system. At least WRT XBSX, it's been stated that games have to be coded to take advantage of the numerous technologies they've implemented for their custom storage subsystem. While anything will see a speed up even without that happening the most dramatic increases will occur when it is specifically coded for.

    I expect this to be the same for the PS5. After all a 1/10th speedup is nice and all, but we have a minimum 55x increase over the 2.5" HDD in the PS4. In the case of Spiderman it's potentially up to a 275x increase as they coded the game expecting a worst case 20 Mb/s scenario.

    I expect both systems to improve upon this dramatically for games coded for their respective architectures.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    PSman1700 and VitaminB6 like this.
  13. Strange

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    428
    Location:
    Somewhere out there
    Fast travel has a fixed amount of data that is required to be loaded, and it resulted in 8 seconds for original PS4 (I suppose SSD, because I played spiderman and if HDD could do it in 8 seconds it's really short then. I don't even recall it fast traveling in 8 seconds and I put a SSD in my PS4 pro from day 1)
    that same amount of data gets loaded in 1/10 of the time for the demo.

    Loading everything from scratch took 35 seconds on the XB1X (I also suppose SSD) and it was taken down to 8.5 seconds., which is ~1/4 of the time.

    I'm comparing their relative loading speeds when compared to their last gen hardware w/out the tech, 1/10 to 1/4 instead of 0.8 to 8.5 seconds.

    If Cerny has his way we'd expect the 35 seconds to be slashed to sub 1 second (as he advertised). That would probably require some more software changes though.

    People may say that the spiderman demo was modded to provide the tech demo. Ya of course it was modded because we couldn't move through the map at the shown speed!
    (remember sony said that spiderman's swinging speed (which constitutes the fastest way to move around at sustained speed) was capped in order to prevent loading as shown in the ps4 pro version demo)
     
    #253 Strange, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  14. PSman1700

    Legend Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    5,496
    Likes Received:
    2,409
    It would seem like that, yes. Development started in 2015, extreme high clocked GPUs didnt exist back then. They probably wanted '2x PS4 Pro and BC' and went with something close to 9TF. Stadia, SXS happened, and were seeing boosts. This is honestly the best explanation to the whole thing. Otherwise we would have seen something like 44CU at high(er) clocks.

    Molten plastic :D j/k dont be mad ;)

    There's a reason BC was important for both sony and ms.

    That's some beastly speeds, now i see why MS sells those SSD-memcards, most SSD drives for pc are way below that. Going to be intresting to see huge open world games what they can do with that. Back in 2001, i thought the first halo had impressive open areas (thx to hdd?).
     
  15. jayco

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,738
    Likes Received:
    1,272

    https://blog.us.playstation.com/202...ls-of-playstation-5-hardware-technical-specs/

    It's quite incredible that Sony has been forced to come out and clarify this because some people just want to misrepresent what Cerny said. He said, btw, that most of the 100 most played games on PS4 work fine on PS5 and some needed rework, he did not say only 100 PS4 games work on PS5.
     
    egoless, lynux3, DSoup and 3 others like this.
  16. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    18,258
    Likes Received:
    8,617
    Just keep in mind when doing comparisons that even with that, the PS5's SSD is still faster and it also has hardware decompression capabilities to boost its effective throughput.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  17. Remij

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    638
    How much does sequential throughput really equate to effective performance though? Is there something I'm missing here, or could the 2 drives be closer in general performance than many people think? Maybe initial loads will be more instantaneous on PS5, but loading in assets during gameplay?

    Basically why I'm asking is that on the PC side, random reads are far more indicative of real world performance in games, right? Is there some reason why this will no longer be true on consoles this gen?
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  18. jayco

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,738
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    In games like Star Citizen actually affects performance.
     
    egoless likes this.
  19. dobwal

    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,746
    Likes Received:
    2,023
    Cerny mentioned the same thing during during his PS5 talk. If I’m not mistaken Cerny said you need about 30 seconds worth of data.

    I imagine alot of swapping is texture based because it would chew up a lot of data just to store the highest quality version of each texture in a scene in VRAM.

    So while the game is storing a bunch of data for many frames downstream, its also streaming a bunch of higher resolution texture data as late as possible to accommodate IQ.
     
    #259 dobwal, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  20. manux

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    2,275
    Location:
    Self Imposed Exhile
    Just to add the details in in case someone missed them. Cerny said previous gen required roughly 30s worth of data in ram due to random access to disk being slow. For ps5 he claimed data for next 1s is needed. This means the 16GB vs. 8GB comparison is not valid as ps5 uses the available memory much more efficiently and there is a lot less unneeded data in ram.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...